Covid-19; Impact on the aviation industry

Widdensushi

Best case for them would be get their redundancy and with a vaccine in a year or so that business would have picked up and they will be in big demand. Would they all be employees or are their some who be on contracts?

PommieBast

The Legend of Liscannor wrote: »

Times like these make me think the dole should be indexed to your salary . People have bought cars , houses and started families commensurate to what they were earning at the time.

It is in France and Germany. Might explain the relative bailout packages.

The Legend of Liscannor

Widdensushi wrote: »

Best case for them would be get their redundancy and with a vaccine in a year or so that business would have picked up and they will be in big demand. Would they all be employees or are their some who be on contracts?

All permies.

cson

Lapmo_Dancer wrote: »

Q2 Operating Margins:
EI: -137.1%
BA: -197%
IB: -99.3%
VY: -2801.1% (not a typo)

based on load factors of:
EI: 9.2%
BA: 27.6%
IB: 49.3%
VY: 45.3%

Show's how lean EI are that they still had a significantly better margin than BA on 1/3 of the LF.

The Legend of Liscannor

kona wrote: »

100% and from a public point of view 19 well paid skilled jobs fown the toilet, factor in the tax loss to the exchequer which could be up to a million.

I hope anybody who finds themselves in trouble is given all the support that can be given.

You can add 50% onto your exchequer calculation.

Strumms

Just announced, Ryanair are suing the government and the Taoiseach over travel restrictions. I’ve booked my last Ryanair flight in this lifetime, absolute bunch of cûnts.

dubdaymo

Strumms wrote: »

Just announced, Ryanair are suing the government and the Taoiseach over travel restrictions. I’ve booked my last Ryanair flight in this lifetime, absolute bunch of cûnts.

Ryanair are always first out of the blocks - and you believe, in the event of Ryanair succeeding, that Aer Lingus/IAG won't follow suit?

Jack1985

IAG are set to back FR’s case

Strumms

dubdaymo wrote: »

Ryanair are always first out of the blocks - and you believe, in the event of Ryanair succeeding, that Aer Lingus/IAG won't follow suit?

Time will tell won’t it, I’d be doubtful. I’m not commenting on hypotheticals though just facts of what’s happening... here and now.

Widdensushi

Strumms wrote: »

Just announced, Ryanair are suing the government and the Taoiseach over travel restrictions. I’ve booked my last Ryanair flight in this lifetime, absolute bunch of cûnts.

With iag backing them you could be restricted in your flight options.

MrMusician18

The Legend of Liscannor wrote: »

To be going from 60-100k salaries to 208 euro a week is really tough to take bearing in mind the industry was in rude health up until covid and these careers have been arbitrarily stripped away at the stroke of a pen. The aer lingus engineers only got their pay fixed last year after a long time fighting for it.

Times like these make me think the dole should be indexed to your salary . People have bought cars , houses and started families commensurate to what they were earning at the time. To be given 208 a week after working years of night shifts and traditional holidays such as Christmas and bank holidays is a paltry social support.

This isn't a case of people over stretching themselves by living lavishly .This is a whole career and the industry in which the career exists being rendered null and void.

That argument could be made for anyone losing their job - there was a lot of collateral damage in 08-10 suffered by people who found themselves out of work through no fault of their own.

I wouldn't expect things will be any different this time around unfortunately. Having suffered it myself back then, it's really tough to have security pulled from under you.

The Legend of Liscannor

MrMusician18 wrote: »

That argument could be made for anyone losing their job - there was a lot of collateral damage in 08-10 suffered by people who found themselves out of work through no fault of their own.

I wouldn't expect things will be any different this time around unfortunately. Having suffered it myself back then, it's really tough to have security pulled from under you.

This is specifically legislation/government advice that impresses upon society to not travel/act in a way not conducive to an enjoyable holiday (masks, quarantines etc) .

We introduced tax incentives for people to holiday at home.

This is essentially a scalpel in the heart of aviation as opposed to anyone else losing their gig as collateral damage in the credit crunch (fanny may,freddie mac) in the 08 downturn. its apples and oranges.

It's the reason O'Leary et al are suing them.

The Legend of Liscannor

MrMusician18 wrote: »

That argument could be made for anyone losing their job - there was a lot of collateral damage in 08-10 suffered by people who found themselves out of work through no fault of their own.

I wouldn't expect things will be any different this time around unfortunately. Having suffered it myself back then, it's really tough to have security pulled from under you.

The builders who lost their jobs in 08 went off to Canada and Australia and rode it out on Bondi beach.

This is a worldwide passive aggressive hatchet job on travel and by extension Aviation.

Some airlines had orders for 100's of new aircraft. There wasn't enough jets in the world. Now all the orders are cancelled because the likes of Micheal Martin are strong arming us to go to Trabolgan.

kona

The Legend of Liscannor wrote: »

This is specifically legislation/government advice that impresses upon society to not travel/act in a way not conducive to an enjoyable holiday (masks, quarantines etc) .

We introduced tax incentives for people to holiday at home.

This is essentially a scalpel in the heart of aviation as opposed to anyone else losing their gig as collateral damage in the credit crunch (fanny may,freddie mac) in the 08 downturn. its apples and oranges.

It's the reason O'Leary et al are suing them.

I suspect the case is to focus their efforts while they have ****ed off on a 6 week holiday.

MrMusician18

The Legend of Liscannor wrote: »

This is specifically legislation/government advice that impresses upon society to not travel/act in a way not conducive to an enjoyable holiday (masks, quarantines etc) .

We introduced tax incentives for people to holiday at home.

This is essentially a scalpel in the heart of aviation as opposed to anyone else losing their gig as collateral damage in the credit crunch (fanny may,freddie mac) in the 08 downturn. its apples and oranges.

It's the reason O'Leary et al are suing them.

I think you missed my point that there is no hierarchy in misery.

The Legend of Liscannor

MrMusician18 wrote: »

I think you missed my point that there is no hierarchy in misery.

With all due respect i think you missed mine.

There are recessions and there are recessions that specifically effect a certain cohort of people.

The current situation hasn't affected the "grand canal dock" set at all. They are all working from home and saving on creche fees and commutes . Dare I say it , covid has benefitted some of them.

An aircraft engineer cannot do a daily check or change a fuel pump from his dining room table.

Topgear on Dave

The Legend of Liscannor wrote: »

The builders who lost their jobs in 08 went off to Canada and Australia and rode it out on Bondi beach.

This is a rather strange and rose tinted view of things a decade ago.

Captain_Crash

The Legend of Liscannor wrote: »

An aircraft engineer cannot do a daily check or change a fuel pump from his dining room table.

I think you’ll find your wrong....! (I’ll get my coat)

Inquitus

The Legend of Liscannor wrote: »

This is specifically legislation/government advice that impresses upon society to not travel/act in a way not conducive to an enjoyable holiday (masks, quarantines etc) .

We introduced tax incentives for people to holiday at home.

This is essentially a scalpel in the heart of aviation as opposed to anyone else losing their gig as collateral damage in the credit crunch (fanny may,freddie mac) in the 08 downturn. its apples and oranges.

It's the reason O'Leary et al are suing them.

At the end of the day the Government's duty is the welfare of all its citizens, it does not have a duty to the Airline industry in times when flying is hardly the safest thing one can do. I will be taking a staycation this year. I also travel alot with work, and my company has a duty to its employees, and as such corporate travel is off the menu until at least next year at the earliest.

Yes I feel sorry for those who rely on the Airline industry for their jobs, but at this point in time there is nothing that can be done to help them without putting people at risk.

The Legend of Liscannor

Inquitus wrote: »

At the end of the day the Government's duty is the welfare of all its citizens, it does not have a duty to the Airline industry in times when flying is hardly the safest thing one can do. I will be taking a staycation this year. I also travel alot with work, and my company has a duty to its employees, and as such corporate travel is off the menu until at least next year at the earliest.

Yes I feel sorry for those who rely on the Airline industry for their jobs, but at this point in time there is nothing that can be done to help them without putting people at risk.

i completely agree with the central tenet of your point, but it isn't a failing industry, its an industry being hamstrung specifically by government intervention. Profits were stellar in 2019.

Thats why I feel like 208 quid a week doesn't cut it.

Hurrache

Everything in society has been hamstrung by Covid-19, the airline industry hasn't been unfairly targeted by government interventions just for the craic. You seem to think a private company's profits should be prioritised over public health.

Should cigarette companies renew their cases against states worldwide because they're business is being hamstrung on the basis of public health?

The Legend of Liscannor

Hurrache wrote: »

Everything in society has been hamstrung by Covid-19, the airline industry hasn't been unfairly targeted.

It has been disproportionately affected along with tourism and restaurants/pubs.

People who work for google and their ilk haven't batted an eye lid.

To argue otherwise is disingenuous.

Inquitus

The Legend of Liscannor wrote: »

Thats why iI feel like 208 quid a week doesn't cut it.

I completely agree, 208 quid doesn't cut it for childcare workers, for hospitality employees, for those in the tourism business and for those who earn substantially more working in aviation. You can't pay your bills, or your mortgage or whatever off the back of that. Hopefully the government extends the mortgage breaks and other supports that are keeping families afloat as this isn't going to get fixed in a hurry!

Hurrache

The Legend of Liscannor wrote: »

It has been disproportionately affected along with tourism and restaurants/pubs.

People who work for google and their ilk haven't batted an eye lid.

To argue otherwise is disingenuous.

Nobody is arguing otherwise, but you seem to think it's the state unfairly targeting it. It's not.

That's Covid-19 for you, Ryanair, travel companies and tourism just happen to be worse affected by the nature of the virus.

The Legend of Liscannor

Inquitus wrote: »

I completely agree, 208 quid doesn't cut it for childcare workers, for hospitality employees, for those in the tourism business and for those who earn substantially more working in aviation. You can't pay your bills, or your mortgage or whatever off the back of that. Hopefully the government extends the mortgage breaks and other supports that are keeping families afloat as this isn't going to get fixed in a hurry!

Agreed

The Legend of Liscannor

Hurrache wrote: »

Nobody is arguing otherwise, but you seem to think it's the state unfairly targeting it. It's not.

That's Covid-19 for you, Ryanair, travel companies and tourism just happen to be worse affected by the nature of the virus.

There is no government advice saying kids cant be minded or coffee shops cant be frequented or petrol stations shouldn't be used.

There is advice/ rules encouraging people not to travel and to keep pubs closed.

Im not trying to claim any victimhood hierarchy points over others but people are being encouraged to not participate in travel abroad. That's a fact.

Inquitus

The Legend of Liscannor wrote: »

m not trying to claim any victimhood hierarchy points over others but people are being encouraged to not participate in travel abroad. That's a fact.

That's because its not that safe to travel abroad right now, resurgences in European holiday destinations, US out of control. Would you recommend that your nearest and dearest go on a sun holiday this year? The general advice being given seems fair, even if it is detrimental to the Aviation industry.

The Legend of Liscannor

Inquitus wrote: »

That's because its not that safe to travel abroad right now, resurgences in European holiday destinations, US out of control. Would you recommend that your nearest and dearest go on a sun holiday this year? The general advice being given seems fair, even if it is detrimental to the Aviation industry.

Yes . Yes I would. But that's a conversation for another forum. I think its the biggest **** up we have made as a worldwide collective in a long time. I fly twice a week as it stands.

MrMusician18

The Legend of Liscannor wrote: »

i completely agree with the central tenet of your point, but it isn't a failing industry, its an industry being hamstrung specifically by government intervention. Profits were stellar in 2019.

Thats why iI feel like 208 quid a week doesn't cut it.

Your right it doesn't cut it, but it's never cut it for anyone. Profits were stellar in 2019 then perhaps these companies should be paying back to the staff that created this profits rather than cut cut cut in order to protect shareholder value?

cson

The Legend of Liscannor wrote: »

(fanny may,freddie mac) in the 08 downturn. its apples and oranges.

It'd be fantastic if any Company receiving State support turned out like Fannie/Freddie, they've collectively returned about $150bn more than they received to the US Treasury since they were taken into conservatorship.

The Legend of Liscannor wrote: »

With all due respect i think you missed mine.

There are recessions and there are recessions that specifically effect a certain cohort of people.

The current situation hasn't affected the "grand canal dock" set at all. They are all working from home and saving on creche fees and commutes . Dare I say it , covid has benefitted some of them.

An aircraft engineer cannot do a daily check or change a fuel pump from his dining room table.

The 'GCD set' include many leasing companies and companies that support them. Things don't look rosy there to say the least.

I think you have a point, but you're making it very clumsily - this isn't a zero sum game to be compared to the GFC or compared industry to industry. Everyone is being affected by this, air transportation and hospitality more catastrophically than most.