Consent (Sexual)

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/n...ed/4793879002/

"Sexual assault prevention advocates said they see more instances of young people advised to get proof of consent, but formal documentation in writing or video doesn’t capture how consent really works.

“It should be taken as a red flag that a person would have enough doubts about whether or not consent was established to ... request this type of agreement before or after an encounter,” said Laura Palumbo, communication director for the National Sexual Violence Resource Center. “Because in reality, one of the most important things for people to know about consent is that if you have any doubts … then the interaction should not move forward with your partner.”

Emily Gemar, campus advocacy coordinator for OhioHealth’s Sexual Assault Response Network of Central Ohio, said consent can legally be revoked at any time, so written or recorded documentation is in no way representative of an entire sexual encounter.

“If someone consents on a recording one time, it doesn’t simply (mean) blanket consent for everything after that,” she said.

″On the one hand, people know that consent is important, but on the other hand, of course, these types of ways of proving consent are concerning,” said Zoë Peterson, director of the Sexual Assault Research Initiative at Indiana University’s Kinsey Institute, who studies sexual consent, sexual assault, sexual coercion and unwanted sex.

Gemar said she uses the “FRIES” model to outline the requirements of consent: freely given, reversible, informed, enthusiastic, specific."

Now. We have enough bashing threads. I'm more interested in finding out what/how consent is given, and more importantly, how you would show that your sexual partner had given consent after the fact.

I understand that in most cases consent isn't an issue because both people are committed to the action, but I'm interested about how either gender protects themselves with regards to consent being withdrawn.

I'd always considered verbal acknowledgment of consent to be enough, but there's a heap of articles over the last year, about consent being withdrawn during or after sex. [And since a male could withdraw consent during sex, this is an issue for women too, apart from being victims themselves]

In real practical terms, Is there any security against being a rapist if your partner decides that you are? All the information I read online is really vague on the specifics.. Plenty on yes's/no's, and that consent can be withdrawn, but little on how to protect yourself.. (apart from complete trust in your partner)

And lastly, do you think this has gone a little too far? Surely there should be some definite rules to follow, boxes to tick, and a way to protect yourself, should your partner simply decide to change their mind...

Silentcorner

A little too far?

They are going to produce the most infantile generation of women who are going to be riddled with all kinds of misinformation and anxiety.


This is a video of Heather McDonald calmly explaining how the Rape Crisis in the US is a complete fabrication.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiBtWbgbfVA&t=501s

She rationally uses the statistic that in America's most dangerous city, if you combine the figures for the 4 top crimes against people, you get a rate of incident at 2% across the population, according to Feminists, Rape is occurring at the rate of 20%.

Note the hysterical reaction of the female students to the thought that they may not the victims they seem to wish to be!!!

Lonesomerhodes

Silentcorner wrote: »

A little too far?

They are going to produce the most infantile generation of women who are going to be riddled with all kinds of misinformation and anxiety.


This is a video of Heather McDonald calmly explaining how the Rape Crisis in the US is a complete fabrication.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiBtWbgbfVA&t=501s

She rationally uses the statistic that in America's most dangerous city, if you combine the figures for the 4 top crimes against people, you get a rate of incident at 2% across the population, according to Feminists, Rape is occurring at the rate of 20%.

Note the hysterical reaction of the female students to the thought that they may not the victims they seem to wish to be!!!

Now dont come along here with common sense like this!.

My two cents is the whole "rape culture" is a total lie and scam. There is no culture of rape its nonsense designed to line the pockets of certain ngo's and feminist groups.
As made evident by organisations pushing the rape culture myth do they offer any REAL help for support for rape victims?. Anything?
Do they phuck!

Its insulting to real rape victims too as it makes trivial a very serious issue.

For example many of these headcases lump a leering comment or a slap on the arse in the same category as rape. There is no reason or looking at anything in context or severity.

Imagine grown adults being so infantile they need to be told what consent is.


These folk behind this gravy train lining pockets

I find it interesting because as many people move away from marriage as an institution, that there is this issue of consent. The idea is that we should just trust our sexual partner completely to not claim a rape occurred.

Consent can be withdrawn at any time, and there is no effective way of showing consent has been given (if the other person says it was withdrawn)... And seeking to obtain evidence of consent is a red flag... sooo... it stands to reason that casual sexual encounters are to be considered extremely risky. Even sex within a relationship is dangerous, as partners or ex's might have their own reasons to claim there was a rape involved.

We are supposed to believe that everyone will have a good sense of morals and not press the shiny red button that can land their partner/ex in jail?

Lonesomerhodes

These rape culture folk sure are hysterical!.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6dv6G1FWxk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=punpJSDMoe4

Silentcorner

Deleted User wrote: »

I find it interesting because as many people move away from marriage as an institution, that there is this issue of consent. The idea is that we should just trust our sexual partner completely to not claim a rape occurred.

Consent can be withdrawn at any time, and there is no effective way of showing consent has been given (if the other person says it was withdrawn)... And seeking to obtain evidence of consent is a red flag... sooo... it stands to reason that casual sexual encounters are to be considered extremely risky. Even sex within a relationship is dangerous, as partners or ex's might have their own reasons to claim there was a rape involved.

We are supposed to believe that everyone will have a good sense of morals and not press the shiny red button that can land their partner/ex in jail?

Consent is becoming a figment of a woman's imagination...anybody who has lived the liberal culture can reason how utterly dangerous this is becoming for men...at what point do young men stay away from women altogether although I suspect that is the goal....it's mad that our society is beginning to shift back to one that heavily polices this kind of behaviour!

CtevenSrowder

Silentcorner wrote: »

Consent is becoming a figment of a woman's imagination...anybody who has lived the liberal culture can reason how utterly dangerous this is becoming for men...at what point do young men stay away from women altogether although I suspect that is the goal....it's mad that our society is beginning to shift back to one that heavily polices this kind of behaviour!

It might be the goal but the overwhelming majority of women know all this is just a big croc of **** as men. You can tell these radical types of feminists a mile off. You just stay away from them.

alastair

Lonesomerhodes wrote: »

Now dont come along here with common sense like this!.

My two cents is the whole "rape culture" is a total lie and scam. There is no culture of rape its nonsense designed to line the pockets of certain ngo's and feminist groups.
As made evident by organisations pushing the rape culture myth do they offer any REAL help for support for rape victims?. Anything?
Do they phuck!

Its insulting to real rape victims too as it makes trivial a very serious issue.

For example many of these headcases lump a leering comment or a slap on the arse in the same category as rape. There is no reason or looking at anything in context or severity.

Imagine grown adults being so infantile they need to be told what consent is.


These folk behind this gravy train lining pockets

Bit ironic coming from a lad who claims that there’s an influx of African rapists coming to this country. Seems that having cake and eating it is the dish of the day.

Silentcorner

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

It might be the goal but the overwhelming majority of women know all this is just a big croc of **** as men. You can tell these radical types of feminists a mile off. You just stay away from them.

I agree, but I'm glad I'm not raising a son all the same.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Deleted User wrote: »

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/n...ed/4793879002/



Now. We have enough bashing threads. I'm more interested in finding out what/how consent is given, and more importantly, how you would show that your sexual partner had given consent after the fact.

I understand that in most cases consent isn't an issue because both people are committed to the action, but I'm interested about how either gender protects themselves with regards to consent being withdrawn.

I'd always considered verbal acknowledgment of consent to be enough, but there's a heap of articles over the last year, about consent being withdrawn during or after sex. [And since a male could withdraw consent during sex, this is an issue for women too, apart from being victims themselves]

In real practical terms, Is there any security against being a rapist if your partner decides that you are? All the information I read online is really vague on the specifics.. Plenty on yes's/no's, and that consent can be withdrawn, but little on how to protect yourself.. (apart from complete trust in your partner)

And lastly, do you think this has gone a little too far? Surely there should be some definite rules to follow, boxes to tick, and a way to protect yourself, should your partner simply decide to change their mind...

Nail on the head here.

If you have sex with someone drunk a a night club, you're always going to leve yourself open to accusation if the person doesn't remember consenting the enxt morning.

I'm not saying this is wise, unwise, good, bad or whatever; I'm saying that it's the risk you take in faving sex with drunks.

AudreyHepburn

To be honest in the post metoo era I don’t think there is any concrete way of proving consent or being able to protect yourself. It’s all too easy for people to throw accusations around and unfortunately the most common response to any accusation nowadays is to believe without question.

We’re only short of having to have written consent before being intimate. And I’m not even sure that would protect you because the other person could claim to have written it under duress.

CIARAN_BOYLE

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

To be honest in the post metoo era I don’t think there is any concrete way of proving consent or being able to protect yourself. It’s all too easy for people to throw accusations around and unfortunately the most common response to any accusation nowadays is to believe without question.

We’re only short of having to have written consent before being intimate. And I’m not even sure that would protect you because the other person could claim to have written it under duress.

It wouldn't protect because consent can be withdrawn at will. So writen consent before sex doesn't mean consent wasn't withdrawn mid encounter.

Actually on the topic of withdrawn consent has there been any Irish convictions for rape in cases where soemone consented and withdrew consent during the act.

s7ryf3925pivug

I spent three months in the USA on a J1 back in the last millenium. I was aware of two rapes and I physically intervened in what I believe would have been another. There was definitely a rape culture where I was.

There was no grey area about consent in any of those cases. None were prosecuted.

Silentcorner

Chance Ashy Comics wrote: »

I spent three months in the USA on a J1 back in the last millenium. I was aware of two rapes and I physically intervened in what I believe would have been another. There was definitely a rape culture where I was.

There was no grey area about consent in any of those cases. None were prosecuted.

Jesus...that is nuts...you actually witnessed and intervened in a rape in progress, fair play to you!!

You should start a thread about Rape Culture, this thread is about the complete inability for any man to discern what consent is....it is too important an issue to be ignored or diluted by what some, including myself, believe to be completely inaccurate data regarding the incident rates of rape.

s7ryf3925pivug

Silentcorner wrote: »

Jesus...that is nuts...you actually witnessed and intervened in a rape in progress, fair play to you!!

You should start a thread about Rape Culture, this thread is about the complete inability for any man to discern what consent is....it is too important an issue to be ignored or diluted by what some, including myself, believe to be completely inaccurate data regarding the incident rates of rape.

It wasn't actually in progress. I was a lot bigger than the guy so it wasn't a big deal.

Hego Damask

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

To be honest in the post metoo era I don’t think there is any concrete way of proving consent or being able to protect yourself. It’s all too easy for people to throw accusations around and unfortunately the most common response to any accusation nowadays is to believe without question.

We’re only short of having to have written consent before being intimate. And I’m not even sure that would protect you because the other person could claim to have written it under duress.

and the mood wouldn't exactly continue would it ?

alastair

Silentcorner wrote: »

Jesus...that is nuts...you actually witnessed and intervened in a rape in progress, fair play to you!!

You should start a thread about Rape Culture, this thread is about the complete inability for any man to discern what consent is....it is too important an issue to be ignored or diluted by what some, including myself, believe to be completely inaccurate data regarding the incident rates of rape.

The incidence of rape is remarkably consistent across various countries and time. The best source for Irish data is from 2002, and tallies with the US and UK figures. 20% of women reporting some sexual assault in adulthood, of which 5-6% involved penetrative sex. Mostly perpetrated by partners, friends, or acquaintances.

http://www.drcc.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/savi.pdf

Consent is easily enough discerned. That’s not the issue highlighted by the OP however. In an instance when consent is subsequently withdrawn, and the other party is unaware or ignores that withdrawal, then there’s little protection from such an accusation. But there’s a pretty wide gulf between an accusation and a prosecution, let alone a conviction. The evidence suggests that patently cut and dried instances of rape fail to achieve conviction on a weekly basis, simply because the only evidence comes down to the statements of the accused and defendant. The bar of ‘beyond doubt’ is little use in a ‘he said, she said’ context. Which is why so few rapes are reported to the Gardai, let alone make it to court.

str8talkingguy

If you are worried about being accused of being a rapist maybe build a bit of trust with the person before you decide to have sex with them. Problem solved,teach your sons the same,problem solved for them too.

alastair

alastair wrote: »

Consent is easily enough discerned. That’s not the issue highlighted by the OP however. In an instance when consent is subsequently withdrawn, and the other party is unaware or ignores that withdrawal, then there’s little protection from such an accusation.

Spot on. Totally agree that consent is easily recognised... This isn't about the tools who breach consent because of "reasons".

But there’s a pretty wide gulf between an accusation and a prosecution, let alone a conviction. The evidence suggests that patently cut and dried instances of rape fail to achieve conviction on a weekly basis, simply because the only evidence comes down to the statements of the accused and defendant. The bar of ‘beyond doubt’ is little use in a ‘he said, she said’ context. Which is why so few rapes are reported to the Gardai, let alone make it to court.

For now. Think of all the changes that have happened over the last two decades to make things safer for women. If this area of consent can be used, then there surely will be other moves in the pipeline.

In the meantime, though, I'm mostly interested from a practical pov, how posters here would gain, and prove consent, after intercourse.

(And I don't see this being limited to men..... should men start withdrawing consent during/after sex, how will women prove consent was given/maintained... this is the kind of thing that will affect all genders over time)

str8talkingguy

str8talkingguy wrote: »

If you are worried about being accused of being a rapist maybe build a bit of trust with the person before you decide to have sex with them. Problem solved,teach your sons the same,problem solved for them too.

Actually, no, not any more. Have you never had a relationship that ended badly? Or perhaps a marriage that ended in divorce with bitterness on both sides? Relationships often end. Badly. Or even end where you consider it was fine, and she decides she was wronged somehow...

This is no longer about picking up a stranger in a bar. This affects established relationships... and pretending that building trust is enough, is incredibly naive.

And not terribly helpful.

osarusan

I have never heard anybody who should be taken seriously about withdrawing consent after sex.

Vitiation of consent because of a narrow range of scenarios is possible though.

Silentcorner

str8talkingguy wrote: »

If you are worried about being accused of being a rapist maybe build a bit of trust with the person before you decide to have sex with them. Problem solved,teach your sons the same,problem solved for them too.

I think you are missing the point of the OP.

There is no way a person can obtain consent in any sexual relationship (according to the parameters outlined in the OP)....a person you were in a trusting relationship with can accuse you of rape at any time....and if any trusting relationship were to breakdown at any given time anything can happen.

The One Night Stand culture is gone...that is way too backward for today's society, that much is clear.

suicide_circus

str8talkingguy wrote: »

If you are worried about being accused of being a rapist maybe build a bit of trust with the person before you decide to have sex with them.

puritan!

str8talkingguy

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually, no, not any more. Have you never had a relationship that ended badly? Or perhaps a marriage that ended in divorce with bitterness on both sides? Relationships often end. Badly. Or even end where you consider it was fine, and she decides she was wronged somehow...

This is no longer about picking up a stranger in a bar. This affects established relationships... and pretending that building trust is enough, is incredibly naive.

And not terribly helpful.

I actually had,lived all this literally.Kids involved too and she actually did make ridiculous accusations that partly stuck when it came to custody,but i made the wrong choice of person.

Next time i would teach my sons better on how to select the right person before engaging in any type of relationship and i believe i wasn't taught correctly how to form a good relationship with the right person.

TuringBot47

Deleted User wrote: »

In real practical terms, Is there any security against being a rapist if your partner decides that you are?

Yes.
Don't be desperate enough to accept the hole of any psycho.
Simple.

alastair

Silentcorner wrote: »

I think you are missing the point of the OP.

There is no way a person can obtain consent in any sexual relationship (according to the parameters outlined in the OP)....a person you were in a trusting relationship with can accuse you of rape at any time....and if any trusting relationship were to breakdown at any given time anything can happen.

The One Night Stand culture is gone...that is way too backward for today's society, that much is clear.

One night stand culture has gone nowhere. Don’t be silly.

There’s nothing to stop anyone accusing another person of anything in life - beyond concern about defamation. That there’s now supposed concern about unwarranted accusations from a few men in a context where there has been historic under-prosecution of rapists, and a judicial system which is stacked against most victims of rape, is an interesting hierarchy of concern. Talk about ignoring the elephant in the room.

str8talkingguy

str8talkingguy wrote: »

I actually had,lived all this literally.Kids involved too and she actually did make ridiculous accusations that partly stuck when it came to custody,but i made the wrong choice of person.

Next time i would teach my sons better on how to select the right person before engaging in any type of relationship and i believe i wasn't taught correctly how to form a good relationship with the right person.

Pick the Right person, Pick the wrong person. People change.

You change, and she/he will also change. Over the course of 6 months, a year, three years, I've seen partners change over time, and generally, they'll change due to circumstances beyond my control.

And not only do people change, they also have their masks/persona's/etc that they show certain people, not removing those masks until later. I've dated women who were incredible during the dating period, but switched completely once a relationship was established. Their priorities had shifted gears.

While I agree that searching for the right person is important, along with testing them along the way to determine their personality/values/etc... there is a ton of luck involved as to whether your partner stays the way you want...

And when we're talking dating.. there's an even less chance of being lucky, simply because of the way, the dating scene (and society's perception of physical beauty/value) has developed.

alastair

alastair wrote: »

One night stand culture has gone nowhere. Don’t be silly.

There’s nothing to stop anyone accusing another person of anything in life - beyond concern about defamation. That there’s now supposed concern about unwarranted accusations from a few men in a context where there has been historic under-prosecution of rapists, and a judicial system which is stacked against most victims of rape, is an interesting hierarchy of concern. Talk about ignoring the elephant in the room.

That elephant has been talked about extensively. Consent, and it's withdrawal hasn't. It's one of those things that has been glossed over.

alastair

Deleted User wrote: »

That elephant has been talked about extensively. Consent, and it's withdrawal hasn't. It's one of those things that has been glossed over.

Perhaps it’s glossed over because its; A. Contextually insignificant, and B. No different to not wanting to be unjustly accused of any other offence?


Consent is hugely important to educate people on. Unwarranted accusations are part of the broader palette of humanity.

alastair

alastair wrote: »

Perhaps it’s glossed over because its; A. Contextually insignificant, and B. No different to not wanting to be unjustly accused of any other offence?


Consent is hugely important to educate people on. Unwarranted accusations are part of the broader palette of humanity.

Mind explaining what you mean by A a bit further? Is it likely to remain insignificant as time goes by? It seems to be something that's becoming more important in cases, at least, in the articles coming out of the US. (Yes, I know it's the US and not here, but some ideas have been migrating recently)

alastair

Deleted User wrote: »

Mind explaining what you mean by A a bit further? Is it likely to remain insignificant as time goes by? It seems to be something that's becoming more important in cases, at least, in the articles coming out of the US. (Yes, I know it's the US and not here, but some ideas have been migrating recently)

The context is one where actual victims of rape are not supported to the point where anywhere near a majority feel safe in bringing their abuse to the Gardai. That’s the ongoing context - a minority of men having anxiety about notional unwarranted accusations doesn’t really compare.