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Consent (Sexual)

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    #362
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,942 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    I don't really care what other people believe, that's none of my concern.
    My issue is with the fact that it was extremely inappropriate and unethical to suggest the plaintiff was up for sex down a muddly alleyway with a man 10 years her senior purely because of her choice of underwear.
    Statements like that have no place in a rape trial, and it sets a dangerous precedent for future cases.

    It doesn't matter what she was wearing. It doesn't matter that her knickers had lace on them. None of those things imply consent. And the barrister was stating that they did. That's what the problem is.


    You can see then why a barrister acting in defence of their client in a court of law might consider it a valid argument to the jury? Because it’s their clients state of mind was in question, not yours, and certainly not the alleged victims state of mind.

    It would have been unethical for the barrister not to use every means at her disposal in defence of her client, and as unsavoury as that sounds, often it will constitute diminishing the credibility of the witnesses for the prosecution.

    As much as I abhor the way the adversarial system works and the way it means that often an alleged victim will have to give evidence at trial which they may find personally humiliating, I would rather that than hand the defence their argument for an appeal on a plate because I thought their defence was mean-spirited.


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    #363
    Feisar
    Registered Users Posts: 6,673 ✭✭✭Feisar


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    I don't really care what other people believe, that's none of my concern.
    My issue is with the fact that it was extremely inappropriate and unethical to suggest the plaintiff was up for sex down a muddly alleyway with a man 10 years her senior purely because of her choice of underwear.
    Statements like that have no place in a rape trial, and it sets a dangerous precedent for future cases.

    It doesn't matter what she was wearing. It doesn't matter that her knickers had lace on them. None of those things imply consent. And the barrister was stating that they did. That's what the problem is.

    The barrister probably doesn't care either way. They more than likely seen a load of fuddy duddies in the jury and thought it'd help the defendants case to attempt to cast the plaintiff in a disparaging light.

    It'd be a very dangerous precedent to set to apply restrictions to a person's defense.

    First they came for the socialists...



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    #364
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    creditcarder wrote: »
    You repeat disgusting a lot.

    Why are you in the country if you see the justice system as such a kangaroo court? Its absurd that you are still calling her a victim without any form of proof

    Because it was, there was international outcry over how that barrister treated the victim in this case. It was reported worldwide in the media.

    And there's plenty of proof there that a miscarriage of justice happened if you only look. Rape cases have among the lowest conviction rates for any crimes in this country. They are notoriously hard to prove.
    Just because he wasn't convicted, doesn't mean it didn't happen.


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    #365
    creditcarder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 494 ✭✭creditcarder


    alastair wrote: »
    It’s rubbish - which is why you’re not attempting to support your claims.

    Grand, give the feminist pirn a break and read the studies. Prove me wrong.


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    #366
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Because it was, there was international outcry over how that barrister treated the victim in this case. It was reported worldwide in the media.

    And there's plenty of proof there that a miscarriage of justice happened if you only look. Rape cases have among the lowest conviction rates for any crimes in this country. They are notoriously hard to prove.
    Just because he wasn't convicted, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

    90% of reported rapes here don’t result in a conviction, and reported rapes are a minority of recorded rapes. Twice as many recorded rapes are not reported to the Gardai.


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    #367
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Feisar wrote: »
    The barrister probably doesn't care either way. They more than likely seen a load of fuddy duddies in the jury and thought it'd help the defendants case to attempt to cast the plaintiff in a disparaging light.

    It'd be a very dangerous precedent to set to apply restrictions to a person's defense.

    But on the contrary, its a dangerous precedent to allow a defendant (of any crime) to use a victims choice of clothes as a defense.

    If you leave your home unlocked, and someone burgles your house, they've still broken the law and they'll still be prosecuted.
    If a defence barrister said that by leaving the door open you were ok with being robbed, that would be outrageous.


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    #368
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    creditcarder wrote: »
    Grand, give the feminist pirn a break and read the studies. Prove me wrong.

    The ‘studies’ don’t exist to read.


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    #369
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,942 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    Because it was, there was international outcry over how that barrister treated the victim in this case. It was reported worldwide in the media.

    And there's plenty of proof there that a miscarriage of justice happened if you only look. Rape cases have among the lowest conviction rates for any crimes in this country. They are notoriously hard to prove.
    Just because he wasn't convicted, doesn't mean it didn't happen.


    No, what it means is that he maintains the presumption of innocence in law having been found not guilty of a criminal offence, and the State has an obligation in law to protect his right to his good name (in spite of alistairs protestations to the contrary).

    I have no doubt he is well known in the locality of course, as is the alleged victim in that case be known to the locals, similar to when the case down in Kerry was publicised in the media a few years back. Of course people will make assumptions and presumptions one way or the other, but a not guilty verdict means the State cannot punish him unjustly for a crime he has been found not guilty of committing.


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    #370
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    alastair wrote: »
    The ‘studies’ don’t exist to read.

    He's more than likely referring to this. It states 1 in 4 are victims of sexual assault or misconduct, and 11% are victims of rape, bit not 1 in 4 are victims of rape.

    https://www.aau.edu/key-issues/aau-climate-survey-sexual-assault-and-sexual-misconduct-2015


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    #371
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    No, what it means is that he maintains the presumption of innocence in law having been found not guilty of a criminal offence.

    He maintains no such thing. Because nobody has a presumption of innocence outside a criminal trial.


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    #372
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    CtevenSrowder wrote: »
    He's more than likely referring to this. It states 1 in 4 are victims of sexual assault or misconduct, and 11% are victims of rape, bit not 1 in 4 are victims of rape.

    https://www.aau.edu/key-issues/aau-climate-survey-sexual-assault-and-sexual-misconduct-2015

    Sure. Contrary to his claim.


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    #373
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,942 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    But on the contrary, its a dangerous precedent to allow a defendant (of any crime) to use a victims choice of clothes as a defense.


    That precedent was set a long time ago. It’s entirely up to a Judge in every case to determine what evidence is or isn’t allowed to be entered into evidence in any given case. It would never be up to anyone else to make that determination, which is why there is such a backlash now against the idea of victims having to hand over their personal mobile devices to the authorities investigating a criminal matter. It’s not for the prosecution alone to determine what can or can’t be entered into evidence, as much of the evidence that the prosecution would try to introduce could be prejudicial to a defendants right to a fair trial.


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    #374
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    alastair wrote: »
    90% of reported rapes here don’t result in a conviction,

    True. Some are false, some claims are withdrawn with the charges dropped, some are lacking evidence, and some are defeated in court.
    and reported rapes are a minority of recorded rapes.

    A claim of rape doesn't make it a rape. Until an investigation is done to verify the claim, then, it's simply a claim. And then the claim needs to be proven in court. The burden of proving such a claim is on the accuser, which is why "innocent until proven guilty" is so important.

    Which is why there should be the encouragement for women (and men) who believe themselves to have been raped, to come forward, make the claim official and have it investigated. And then prosecuted in court.
    Twice as many recorded rapes are not reported to the Gardai.

    Recorded rapes? Which means what exactly? recorded by whom?

    Look. I would agree that the true number of attempted or "successful" rapes in this country is easily twice, if not, five times the number reported.... but until those people involved submit their claims to the Gardai, it means little beyond being used for guesswork.

    It's the same for male victims of domestic abuse by women... The numbers are likely much higher than what is reported... however, the claims mean nothing until they're reported, investigated and prosecuted.
    CtevenSrowder wrote: »
    He's more than likely referring to this. It states 1 in 4 are victims of sexual assault or misconduct, and 11% are victims of rape, bit not 1 in 4 are victims of rape.

    https://www.aau.edu/key-issues/aau-climate-survey-sexual-assault-and-sexual-misconduct-2015

    Or this:

    https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence

    US statistics. 1 in 6 women experience attempted or completed rape in their lives.


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    #375
    Ardillaun
    Registered Users Posts: 2,558 ✭✭✭Ardillaun


    SusieBlue wrote: »
    To play devils advocate, if we were to look at it with a broader viewpoint, and look at the whole context, its even worse.

    She was 17, she was highly intoxicated, and she was 10 years his junior. She was a virgin. She was walking home from a party on her own when she came across this man.
    The incident occurred down dark alleyway.
    An independant witnessed confirmed she saw the man choking the girl, with his hands around her throat.
    He then left her lying in the mud, alone. Her family went looking for her when she didn't return home and didn't find her until hours later in a disorientated state.
    The defendant was known to Gardaí, he was a married man with several children, and this wasn't the first time such an accusation was made against him.

    So with all that context in mind, do you still think its acceptable and appropriate that this young woman's choice of underwear was used by the defence to imply she consented to all of that?

    That’s a fairly damning litany of evidence.


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    #376
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    alastair wrote: »
    He maintains no such thing. Because nobody has a presumption of innocence outside a criminal trial.

    Until charges are made, we are all innocent.. and then, we're under suspicion of committing a crime. We're still innocent until proven guilty.


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    #377
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Ah, a 'chicks, am I right?' thread.
    Everybody knows the girls like to play the victim, cajoled by the feminists :rolleyes:


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    #378
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Deleted User wrote: »
    True. Some are false, some claims are withdrawn with the charges dropped, some are lacking evidence, and some are defeated in court.



    A claim of rape doesn't make it a rape. Until an investigation is done to verify the claim, then, it's simply a claim. And then the claim needs to be proven in court. The burden of proving such a claim is on the accuser, which is why "innocent until proven guilty" is so important.

    Which is why there should be the encouragement for women (and men) who believe themselves to have been raped, to come forward, make the claim official and have it investigated. And then prosecuted in court.



    Recorded rapes? Which means what exactly? recorded by whom?

    You seem to sweep the reality of crime under the carpet once again.

    Most crimes are not solved, prosecuted, or convictions attained. And yet those crimes are collated into crime statistics. So we are quite happy to acknowledge the reality of those crimes without requiring convictions.

    My car was stolen. Nobody was ever charged or convicted. The fact of my stolen car is unhindered by that context.

    Rapes are unreported because the judicial process for the crime is not suited to just outcomes, and is uniquely harsh on the victims. My partner was a juror on a rape trial. She said, having gone though the entire process from that vantage point, that she would not go to court as a rape victim. The issue isn’t with civic engagement - it’s with a broken system.

    Who records unreported rapes? The various Rape Crisis Centres.


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    #379
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    A claim of rape doesn't make it a rape. Until an investigation is done to verify the claim, then, it's simply a claim. And then the claim needs to be proven in court. The burden of proving such a claim is on the accuser, which is why "innocent until proven guilty" is so important.

    Which is why there should be the encouragement for women (and men) who believe themselves to have been raped, to come forward, make the claim official and have it investigated. And then prosecuted in court.

    .. but until those people involved submit their claims to the Gardai, it means little beyond being used for guesswork.

    Firstly, absolutely none should be forced into reporting a rape to Gardai if they do not wish to do so. Rapes are recorded by rcc, gps, counsellors etc.
    A rape is a rape, whether or not reported to AGS.
    of course, it won't be included in crime statistics.

    Just FYI, anyone who reports a crime, is a victim. They are treated as such. I am repeating myself here, but looks like I may have to!
    Someone reports a rape, the crime is investigated in order to bring an offender to justice.
    If, during an investigation, it turns out to be a false claim, then another investigation into that false allegation is started.
    Gardai do not investigate the claim in order to verify the complaint.

    Same as any other reported crime.


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    #380
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Firstly, absolutely none should be forced into reporting a rape to Gardai if they do not wish to do so.

    Err... did I say for anyone to be forced? Nope. I didn't.
    Rapes are recorded by rcc, gps, counsellors etc.
    A rape is a rape, whether or not reported to AGS.
    of course, it won't be included in crime statistics.

    A claim of a rape is not a rape until it is proven to be a rape. Simple enough.

    Until it is proven, it is simply a claim.
    Just FYI, anyone who reports a crime, is a victim. They are treated as such. I am repeating myself here, but looks like I may have to!

    They're potentially a victim but are treated as a victim. And rightly so. Just as the aggressor is treated as being under suspicion.. and rightly so.
    Someone reports a rape, the crime is investigated in order to bring an offender to justice.
    If, during an investigation, it turns out to be a false claim, then another investigation into that false allegation is started.
    Gardai do not investigate the claim in order to verify the complaint.

    Same as any other reported crime.

    For there to be a complaint, a claim has to be made. The Gardai can and do launch investigations independent of an official clam, but they're a minority and highly situational. For most potential rape claims, someone needs to come forward to make the claim...


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    #381
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    alastair wrote: »
    You seem to sweep the reality of crime under the carpet once again.

    Strange.. I wouldn't have thought so, but then, no doubt you consider yourself to be accurate even with your issues with "innocent until proven guilty"
    Most crimes are not solved, prosecuted, or convictions attained. And yet those crimes are collated into crime statistics. So we are quite happy to acknowledge the reality of those crimes without requiring convictions.

    We're happy to acknowledge them as being reported, but not proved. They're not crimes. They're potential crimes that were not proven.
    My car was stolen. Nobody was ever charged or convicted. The fact of my stolen car is unhindered by that context.

    Never understood the need to use unrelated examples.
    Rapes are unreported because the judicial process for the crime is not suited to just outcomes, and is uniquely harsh on the victims. My partner was a juror on a rape trial. She said, having gone though the entire process from that vantage point, that she would not go to court as a rape victim. The issue isn’t with civic engagement - it’s with a broken system.

    Or just a negative perception on how potential victims are treated in a court. A balanced and unbiased approach to the proceedings of a case is needed. No need for mob justice without consideration of evidence and due process. Which is what you seem to admire.

    I do notice that you're moving away from what I answered though.
    Who records unreported rapes? The various Rape Crisis Centres.

    Which are simply claims, until investigated and proven to be, actual, rape.


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    #382
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    A claim of a rape is not a rape until it is proven to be a rape. Simple enough.

    Until it is proven, it is simply a claim....

    Not true.
    Someone makes a complaint of rape, it is recorded as a rape.
    Same as when someone makes a complaint of burglary, it is recorded as a burglary.
    AGS do not investigate to verify claims.
    They investigate to bring an offender to justice

    I don't know what you meant by your last paragraph?


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    #383
    notobtuse
    Registered Users Posts: 5,424 ✭✭✭notobtuse


    Damn, thankfully I’m old and been married for a very long time. If I were single in today’s screwed up PC/SJW world I’d probably just use prostitutes for my jollies.

    You can ignorantly accuse me of "whataboutism," but what it really is involves identifying similar scenarios in order to see if it holds up when the shoe is on the other foot!



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    #384
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Deleted User wrote: »
    We're happy to acknowledge them as being reported, but not proved. They're not crimes. They're potential crimes that were not proven.

    A notion at odds with the Gardai records and the CSO. They are recorded as crimes of rape - nothing else. They form part of the crime statistics for each year. Same as my car theft crime was - despite no prosecution.

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-rc/recordedcrimeq12019/


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    #385
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Or just a negative perception on how potential victims are treated in a court. A balanced and unbiased approach to the proceedings of a case is needed. No need for mob justice without consideration of evidence and due process. Which is what you seem to admire.

    There’s no bias required to acknowledge the judicial system is failing rape victims. It’s self-evident.

    Straw man ignored.


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    #386
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    alastair wrote: »

    My car was stolen. Nobody was ever charged or convicted. The fact of my stolen car is unhindered by that context.

    .

    Unless ofcourse your car wasn't stolen and you are lying.


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    #387
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    alastair wrote: »
    There’s no bias required to acknowledge the judicial system is failing rape victims. It’s self-evident.

    Straw man ignored.

    The judicial system isn't failing anyone. The burden of proof for rape is the same for any crime I. E. Beyond all reasonable doubt.

    The fact that rape is so hard to prove is neither here nor there as far as the judicial system sees it.


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    #388
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    CtevenSrowder wrote: »
    The judicial system isn't failing anyone. The burden of proof for rape is the same for any crime I. E. Beyond all reasonable doubt.

    The fact that rape is so hard to prove is neither here nor there as far as the judicial system sees it.

    Nope - it’s failing victims because the nature of the crime is not reflected in the criteria applied in judgement, and the victim is uniquely subject to secondary victimisation. By any measure the system is unsuited to purpose.


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    #389
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    CtevenSrowder wrote: »
    Unless ofcourse your car wasn't stolen and you are lying.

    It’s there in the crime stats. It’s an official crime. Same as the vast majority of car thefts where no-one is prosecuted.


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    #390
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,942 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    alastair wrote: »
    There’s no bias required to acknowledge the judicial system is failing rape victims. It’s self-evident.

    Straw man ignored.


    That is bias to make such a broad statement as to suggest that the judicial system is in your opinion failing victims of rape. It’s just daft, frankly, as it’s not the judicial system is at fault at all, given that the primary function of the judiciary is the administration of justice, rather than to presume guilt upon people who are innocent.


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    #391
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    That is bias to make such a broad statement as to suggest that the judicial system is in your opinion failing victims of rape. It’s just daft, frankly, as it’s not the judicial system is at fault at all, given that the primary function of the judiciary is the administration of justice, rather than to presume guilt upon people who are innocent.

    It’s not my opinion. It’s objectively seen in the raw data.
    The intent of the system isn’t matched by the consequent justice served.


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