Consent (Sexual)

CtevenSrowder

alastair wrote: »

It wasn’t ambiguous at all. And I did clarify.

A demonstration:

A: “I think money should be used as a form of currency for barter”
B: “Welcome to the real world”

Nope, still not clear. How do I ascertain if you agree or disagree with that statement?

For instance, A: "I agree, but welcome to the real World."
B: "That idea is silly. We did that before and the way things work now are far superior. Welcome to the real World".

theological

Deleted User wrote: »

I find it interesting because as many people move away from marriage as an institution, that there is this issue of consent. The idea is that we should just trust our sexual partner completely to not claim a rape occurred.

You raise an interesting point here. I think it is accurate also, but why do you think the issue of consent comes forth as people move away from marriage particularly?

That aside - do you think it is massively more complex than asking your partner if they want to have sex with you before having sex with them? I guess there are questions involving what kind of things should happen during sex, did I consent to that specifically etc etc.

alastair

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Nope, still not clear. How do I ascertain if you agree or disagree with that statement?

Once again - the lack of understanding is your own issue. The response makes clear the proposition is the status quo.

alastair

theological wrote: »

You raise an interesting point here. I think it is accurate also, but why do you think the issue of consent comes forth as people move away from marriage particularly?

A quarter of rapes in Ireland take place within established long-term relationships, including marriage. Consent doesn’t stop becoming an issue in a marriage.

CtevenSrowder

alastair wrote: »

Once again - the lack of understanding is your own issue. The response makes clear the proposition is the status quo.

No, it isn't. I'm not inside your head. Why would the OP have asked for clarification if it was so clear? Why would I and (seemingly) ToddDameron agree with them? It wasn't clear. Just get over it, maybe elaborate more in the future. You did eventually, as you say, clarify what you meant, so I'll leave it there.

tillyfilly

alastair wrote: »

A quarter of rapes in Ireland take place within established long-term relationships, including marriage. Consent doesn’t stop becoming an issue in a marriage.

Surely you mean alleged rapes ? Otherwise the numbers are wrong

alastair

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

No, it isn't. I'm not inside your head. Why would the OP have asked for clarification if it was so clear? Why would I and (seemingly) ToddDameron agree with them? It wasn't clear. Just get over it, maybe elaborate more in the future. You did eventually, as you say, clarify what you meant, so I'll leave it there.

The poster asked for clarification and it was given (despite your claim to the contrary). I can’t be accountable for anyone’s difficulties with written comprehension - yours included.

Eric Cartman

Weve reached an odd point in the ‘fake news’ decade. The problem comes from unvetted information source and qualified educators not having the same reach to youth as young people who are heaviliy opinionated, light on facts but gery social media savage.

Its good to have consent as a word out there and a topic entering you ger peoples thought process, theres definitely a lot more appetite to report cases of sexual assault, a lot less stigma and a better understanding of what is assault. All very positive things , but thats where it ends.

Some people who lure young eyes and ears through the door are peddling misinformation, a much broader definition of assault and also a narrative that a lot more rapists / assaulters are out there.

We have an entire new set of alternative ‘facts’ where some online ‘influencers’ are claiming every college graduating male has atleast a 4 body count for sexual assault, claiming that consent can be removed after the fact if you regretted doing it, that imbibing any alcohol means specifically only women cant consent, that even talking to women youre interested in uninvited is assault etc...

These actions only serve to allow real rapists to thrive , after all if every man is a ‘rapist’ sure does the term mean anything anymore.

We are entering a clown world where an entire body of the political and academic world and social media ‘influencers’ would like to shift the belief that its more likely any guven man is a rapist than any given women told a lie.

alastair

tillyfilly wrote: »

Surely you mean alleged rapes ? Otherwise the numbers are wrong

What numbers? Rapes exist (just as murders, robberies, etc do), regardless of conviction rates.

alastair

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Weve reached an odd point in the ‘fake news’ decade. The problem comes from unvetted information source and qualified educators not having the same reach to youth as young people who are heaviliy opinionated, light on facts but gery social media savage.

Its good to have consent as a word out there and a topic entering you ger peoples thought process, theres definitely a lot more appetite to report cases of sexual assault, a lot less stigma and a better understanding of what is assault. All very positive things , but thats where it ends.

Some people who lure young eyes and ears through the door are peddling misinformation, a much broader definition of assault and also a narrative that a lot more rapists / assaulters are out there.

We have an entire new set of alternative ‘facts’ where some online ‘influencers’ are claiming every college graduating male has atleast a 4 body count for sexual assault, claiming that consent can be removed after the fact if you regretted doing it, that imbibing any alcohol means specifically only women cant consent, that even talking to women youre interested in uninvited is assault etc...

These actions only serve to allow real rapists to thrive , after all if every man is a ‘rapist’ sure does the term mean anything anymore.

We are entering a clown world where an entire body of the political and academic world and social media ‘influencers’ would like to shift the belief that its more likely any guven man is a rapist than any given women told a lie.

Light on facts definitely resonates here.

tillyfilly

alastair wrote: »

What numbers? Rapes exist (just as murders, robberies, etc do), regardless of conviction rates.

Oh my god, a rape needs to be proven in court with a conviction in court to have happened , you lost me there

25% of convictions are not of people in relationships

CtevenSrowder

alastair wrote: »

The poster asked for clarification and it was given (despite your claim to the contrary). I can’t be accountable for anyone’s difficulties with written comprehension - yours included.

Well, welcome to the real World.

CtevenSrowder

alastair wrote: »

Light on facts definitely resonates here.

Light on elaboration definitely resonates here.

alastair

tillyfilly wrote: »

Oh my god, a rape needs to be proven in court with a conviction in court to have happened , you lost me there

Really? How to explain every other unconvicted crime away then? They didn’t happen either!?

CtevenSrowder

alastair wrote: »

Really? How to explain every other unconvicted crime away then? They didn’t happen either!?

Well, welcome to the real World.

tillyfilly

alastair wrote: »

Really? How to explain every other unconvicted crime away then? They didn’t happen either!?

By your reckoning the number of rapes are exponential

alastair

tillyfilly wrote: »

By your reckoning the number of rapes are exponential

Nope. The number is based on reporting.

Be sure to tell all those unsolved murder victims families that those murders ‘didn’t happen’.

tillyfilly

alastair wrote: »

Nope. The number is based on reporting.

Reports of Claims not convictions

alastair

tillyfilly wrote: »

Reports of Claims not convictions

Well spotted.

tillyfilly

alastair wrote: »

Well spotted.

Crime rates around the world would be exponential if we reported on claims, detection and conviction are the only realistic stats , your view breeds the Idea we live in a rape culture

alastair

tillyfilly wrote: »

Crime rates around the world would be exponential if we reported on claims, detection and conviction are the only realistic stats , your view breeds the Idea we live in a rape culture

No they would not. Murders, and all other crimes, regardless of whether there’s a conviction or not, are included in crime rates. Why should rape be any different?

tillyfilly

alastair wrote: »

No they would not. Murders, and all other crimes, regardless of whether there’s a conviction or not, are included in crime rates. Why should rape be any different?

Because for murder there is usually a body or missing person

alastair

tillyfilly wrote: »

Because for murder there is usually a body or missing person

So - no conviction required. Same for assault, robbery, burglary, and pretty much every other crime you care to mention. Convictions in every area only represent a fraction of the actuality. It’s the actuality that forms the crime rate stats.

Eric Cartman

The rape report industry is mad for speaking out bith sides of their face

False claims are reported only as convictions for false claims and are rigid, fixed , not to be argued.

Whereas actual rapes are this magical exponential number based on every claim being real and wildly under reported alegedly.

alastair

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The rape report industry is mad for speaking out bith sides of their face

False claims are reported only as convictions for false claims and are rigid, fixed , not to be argued.

Whereas actual rapes are this magical exponential number based on every claim being real and wildly under reported alegedly.

Nobody disputes that rapes are under-reported. Nobody.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The rape report industry is mad for speaking out bith sides of their face

I'm alomost afread to ask, but: exactly what are you talking about here?

False claims are reported only as convictions for false claims and are rigid, fixed , not to be argued.

Whereas actual rapes are this magical exponential number based on every claim being real and wildly under reported alegedly.

You mean, actual malicious cases of false accusation? And not cases where the act was ambiguous?

tillyfilly

alastair wrote: »

So - no conviction required. Same for assault, robbery, burglary, and pretty much every other crime you care to mention. Convictions in every area only represent a fraction of the actuality. It’s the actuality that forms the crime rate stats.

but when there is a murdered body you can prove a murder took place,it is evident, when there is a report of rape there does not have to be evidence

If a person is reported missing they will never be classified as murdered unless the body is found as evidence so why should a report of rape alone be evidence enough

Eric Cartman

alastair wrote: »

Nobody disputes that rapes are under-reported. Nobody.

Absolutely, but to what degree many differ, however where people massively disagree is false accusations, the rape crisis centre says less than 1% of claims are false, there is no way its that low

tillyfilly

tillyfilly wrote: »

Oh my god, a rape needs to be proven in court with a conviction in court to have happened , you lost me there

25% of convictions are not of people in relationships

Does a murder have to be proven in court to prove it happened?
What about the dead person?
Does a burglary have to be proven in court for your house to have been burgled?
No.

Court decides the guilt or not guilt of a person.

banie01

Very coincidentally, I attended a talk last night by the president of the Court of appeal last night on the topic of consent in criminal law.

Excellent speaker in Mr Justice Birmingham and a very wide ranging explanation of the current state of play.
Particularly with regard sexual consent and it's initial acquiescence and it's need to be continual.
It's not just your Mickey that can be withdrawn!

The legislative definition of consent is something that is enshrined in the Irish criminal law act, sexual offences act 2017, s9 amendment of the 1990 act.

It gives a robust and workable framework as to what consent is, and more importantly what it is not.

There is also some particularly interesting rulings from Canada and NZ.
1 Canadian case in particular, the name escapes me.
Husband and wife engaged in consensual choking.
The wife agreed to be choked until she passed out.
Upon coming to, her husband was engaged in an act to which she hadn't consented.
He was held to have commited rape and the conviction was upheld in the Canadian supreme court.

Even at that decision however there was a strong dissenting opinion and whether prior consent was acceptable as an expression of bodily autonomy.