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Consent (Sexual)

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    #152
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    tillyfilly wrote: »
    What about crimes that are committed and no offender is found? Often these are single counts of offenses such as assault or robbery in the street where the offenders ran away

    But with sex offenses these can be in the many multiples of offenses, and if no conviction occurs it looks like 50 rapes or sex assaults took place that were never proven

    So you believe that sexual offences when reported should be treated differently to every single other offence in the country?
    Basically we should treat everyone who reports a sexual assault is a suspect until proven otherwise?
    Should we do that with all crimes?
    In the past, that's exactly what victims were treated like. Suspicion, non belief etc. Remember all the children & victims of systematic abuse in this country?
    Do you know how rape victims are treated in court? Cross examined about everything in their life? Their sexual history?

    Thankfully AGS has moved with the times & now treat victims with respect & empathy .
    I don't think we should be moving back to the 1950s ,do you?


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    #153
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    surely the under-reporting of rape is simply a consequence of it being very difficult to prove what happened in a room with two people while we all have a presumption of innocent before the law? its unfortunate but i'm not sure how we get round that problem


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    #154
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    CtevenSrowder wrote: »
    Well you are assuming. You don't know they are a victim of rape, you are assuming they are because they said they were. You are assuming they are telling the truth.

    Now if a man says that he was the victim of a false-rape allegation, will you so easily believe him aswell?

    And yes I do. Insurance fraud is a huge issue in this country.

    No, victims of rape tell other people. They don't necessarily report to the police.
    That's how we know they are underreported.
    If a man said he was the victim of a crime, I would if course believe him. Unless it is proven that he lied.


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    #155
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    surely the under-reporting of rape is simply a consequence of it being very difficult to prove what happened in a room with two people while we all have a presumption of innocent before the law? its unfortunate but i'm not sure how we get round that problem

    There is that but also the embarrassment and stress of the trial. Again though, not sure how you get around that without lowering the burden of proof required for a conviction.


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    #156
    tillyfilly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 567 ✭✭✭tillyfilly


    bubblypop wrote: »
    So you believe that sexual offences when reported should be treated differently to every single other offence in the country?
    Basically we should treat everyone who reports a sexual assault is a suspect until proven otherwise?
    Should we do that with all crimes?
    In the past, that's exactly what victims were treated like. Suspicion, non belief etc. Remember all the children & victims of systematic abuse in this country?
    Do you know how rape victims are treated in court? Cross examined about everything in their life? Their sexual history?

    Thankfully AGS has moved with the times & now treat victims with respect & empathy .
    I don't think we should be moving back to the 1950s ,do you?

    no I'm not saying that, I am saying we need to be careful how sex crime reports due to their heinous reputation are maintained/registered to avoid going in the opposite direction, we don't live in a rape culture anymore than we live in a culture where rape doesn't happen as was believed in the 50s


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    #157
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    tillyfilly wrote: »
    it looks like 50 rapes or sex assaults took place that were never proven

    Again. Courts do not prove whether or not a crime has been committed.
    They are there to decide a person's guilt or not.
    We don't prove crimes. We prove someone has committed them.


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    #158
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    tillyfilly wrote: »
    no I'm not saying that, I am saying we need to be careful how sex crime reports due to their heinous reputation are maintained/registered to avoid going in the opposite direction, we don't live in a rape culture anymore than we live in a culture where rape doesn't happen as was believed in the 50s


    What do crime statistics have to do with living in a rape culture.
    We do not have to be careful how they are reported.
    We just need to record the crimes themselves.


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    #159
    banie01
    Registered Users Posts: 16,803 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »
    Losing consciousness should be considered revoking consent.

    But again - if she never consented beforehand, where's the continuity you mentioned in your initial post?

    Not only was it considered revoked, it was held to be at trial.

    You seem to be confusing the 1st paragraph of my post as being related to the case I shared at the end.

    The case shared is as an example of how consent to 1 act is not consent to all, that consent is fragile and can be revoked and even broken.

    The continuity referred to in my original post, wasn't in relation to this case.
    It was in relation to consent in general during sexual intercourse being a continual process, rather than an initial yes that concludes with the end of the act.

    The consent must be continued and active throughout the act.
    In the case I gave as an example, consensual S&M practice between a married couple, led to an unconscious wife and a horny husband commuting a sex crime. As consent was not active, nor could it be in the wife's unconscious state.


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    #160
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    bubblypop wrote: »
    No, victims of rape tell other people. They don't necessarily report to the police.

    But again, you've just assumed they are a victim of the crime because they told you. How do you know they are not lying?
    bubblypop wrote: »
    That's how we know they are underreported.
    If a man said he was the victim of a crime, I would if course believe him. Unless it is proven that he lied.

    So how does this work. Your female tells you she was raped by your male friend. Your male friend says she is lying and making a false accusation. There is no real evidence either way. Who do you believe? Because either she was raped or wasn't.

    Would you believe Paddy Jackson if he told you he was a victim of a false accusation? Considering you would believe him until it was proven he lied.


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    #161
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    surely the under-reporting of rape is simply a consequence of it being very difficult to prove what happened in a room with two people while we all have a presumption of innocent before the law? its unfortunate but i'm not sure how we get round that problem

    Civil cases might have to substitute for criminal convictions. Where the balance of evidence is the determinant, not reasonable doubt - a measure unsuited to most rape trials.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/05/scottish-civil-court-rules-that-acquitted-man-did-student


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    #162
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    CtevenSrowder wrote: »
    But again, you've just assumed they are a victim of the crime because they told you. How do you know they are not lying?



    So how does this work. Your female tells you she was raped by your male friend. Your male friend says she is lying and making a false accusation. There is no real evidence either way. Who do you believe? Because either she was raped or wasn't.

    Would you believe Paddy Jackson if he told you he was a victim of a false accusation? Considering you would believe him until it was proven he lied.

    I'm talking about the law, & how crimes are reported & investigated.
    I'm not talking about personal feelings about my friends!

    If a woman reports a rape, she is treated as a victim, which is the way it should be.
    If she has however made a false report, then the male is clearly the victim & is treated as such.


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    #163
    tillyfilly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 567 ✭✭✭tillyfilly


    bubblypop wrote: »
    What do crime statistics have to do with living in a rape culture.
    We do not have to be careful how they are reported.
    We just need to record the crimes themselves.

    On 20 February 2017, British politician Nigel Farage claimed that the Swedish city of Malmö is the “rape capital” of Europe – due to the influx of refugees, Donald Trump also referred to Sweden's rape culture but it turns out it wasn't due to refugees but due to the way sex crimes were reported so it does matter how these types of crimes are reported , it matters to a countries reputation


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    #164
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    tillyfilly wrote: »
    On 20 February 2017, British politician Nigel Farage claimed that the Swedish city of Malmö is the “rape capital” of Europe – due to the influx of refugees, Donald Trump also referred to Sweden's rape culture but it turns out it wasn't due to refugees but due to the way sex crimes were reported so it does matter how these types of crimes are reported , it matters to a countries reputation

    Can you outline, what way the crimes were reported that made them look worse?
    That's interesting
    And why would you think that happens here? Every crime is reported & part of the statistics.


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    #165
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    bubblypop wrote: »
    What do crime statistics have to do with living in a rape culture.
    We do not have to be careful how they are reported.
    We just need to record the crimes themselves.

    If anyone believes a ‘rape culture’ actually exists in europe among natives anymore theyre just looking to be professionally offended. Western men and women and legal systems abhore rape and rightly so.


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    #166
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    tillyfilly wrote: »
    On 20 February 2017, British politician Nigel Farage claimed that the Swedish city of Malmö is the “rape capital” of Europe – due to the influx of refugees, Donald Trump also referred to Sweden's rape culture but it turns out it wasn't due to refugees but due to the way sex crimes were reported so it does matter how these types of crimes are reported , it matters to a countries reputation

    Swedes are clear enough on the incidence of rape there, anyone who doesn’t understand that they collate sexual crimes differently to other countries isn’t really of concern to them.


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    #167
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Can you outline, what way the crimes were reported that made them look worse?
    That's interesting
    And why would you think that happens here? Every crime is reported & part of the statistics.

    Sweden has a lower bar for many sex crimes than elsewhere, and they count every single instance of a crime as a distinct entry - so someone who endured years of abuse would count for potentially scores or hundreds of entries - rather than the single entry which would be recorded elsewhere. They shifted to this approach a good few years back.


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    #168
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    bubblypop wrote: »
    I'm talking about the law, & how crimes are reported & investigated.
    I'm not talking about personal feelings about my friends!

    If a woman reports a rape, she is treated as a victim, which is the way it should be.
    If she has however made a false report, then the male is clearly the victim & is treated as such.

    I'd a proper response written but deleted it. I can't be arsed. But just as an aside I don't think it's the case the person is considered a victim (as in the Gardai will just believe them). I believe they are considered as someone who has merely reported a crime.

    Such a believing policy was tried by the MET Police and abandoned. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/it-isnt-all-about-victims-met-police-to-abandon-practice-of-believing-all-sex-assault-complaints-a3803791.html


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    #169
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    CtevenSrowder wrote: »
    I'd a proper response written but deleted it. I can't be arsed. But just as an aside I don't think it's the case the person is considered a victim (as in the Gardai will just believe them). I believe they are considered as someone who has merely reported a crime.

    Such a believing policy was tried by the MET Police and abandoned. https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/it-isnt-all-about-victims-met-police-to-abandon-practice-of-believing-all-sex-assault-complaints-a3803791.html

    All people who report crimes against them are considered victims unless it is proven otherwise.


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    #170
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    bubblypop wrote: »
    All people who report crimes against them are considered victims unless it is proven otherwise.

    Are you sure? I'm not and I cannot find anything online either way. I would've thought it not the case as the Gardais job is to investigate, not pass judgment either way. The detectives anyway.


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    #171
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    CtevenSrowder wrote: »
    Are you sure? I'm not and I cannot find anything online either way. I would've thought it not the case as the Gardais job is to investigate, not pass judgment either way. The detectives anyway.

    Yep.
    In fact they send a letter to everyone who reports a crime, a victim letter & gives them the number for organisations that assist victims of crime.
    Gardai do not pass judgement, hence why everyone who reports a crime is a victim unless proven otherwise.
    Impartial
    Investigations take place & if they find an offender they will, hopefully, be dealt with by the courts.
    If a crime is found to have been reported falsely, then that crime is investigated & hopefully, the offender in that will be dealt with by the courts.


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    #172
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Yep.
    In fact they send a letter to everyone who reports a crime, a victim letter & gives them the number for organisations that assist victims of crime.
    Gardai do not pass judgement, hence why everyone who reports a crime is a victim unless proven otherwise.
    Impartial
    Investigations take place & if they find an offender they will, hopefully, be dealt with by the courts.
    If a crime is found to have been reported falsely, then that crime is investigated & hopefully, the offender in that will be dealt with by the courts.

    Ok fair enough. I hope you don't know this from experience!


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    #173
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    CtevenSrowder wrote: »
    Ok fair enough. I hope you don't know this from experience!

    I do actually,
    Hopefully you never have to receive one of those letters :)


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    #174
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    bubblypop wrote: »
    I do actually,
    Hopefully you never have to receive one of those letters :)

    Hope was nothing too serious! And I hope so too!


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    #175
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Rape culture is overstated for sure but so is false accusation culture.


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    #176
    theological
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,831 ✭✭✭theological


    alastair wrote: »
    A quarter of rapes in Ireland take place within established long-term relationships, including marriage. Consent doesn’t stop becoming an issue in a marriage.

    What about the other 75%? Of that 25% how many are within marriages?

    We're still talking about a minority and a lower probability.

    The idea that klaz put forward of complete trust in a sexual partner is more likely to be fulfilled in a committed marriage than outside of one.

    If you look to cases like Grace Millane we see that the current pickup culture is extremely dangerous. Here's a good article on the Guardian where they propose a list of safeguards for online dating. I think they are the wrong safeguards. I think the obvious one to start would be don't sleep with someone on the first date and put someone you don't know in an extremely intimate place with you. The second one which people will ridicule is don't sleep with someone until you know they are committed to you. The best environment for that commitment to be expressed in is marriage.

    Perhaps the ideas that we're throwing away are perhaps the best ones.


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    #177
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    theological wrote: »
    What about the other 75%? Of that 25% how many are within marriages?

    We're still talking about a minority and a lower probability.

    The idea that klaz put forward of complete trust in a sexual partner is more likely to be fulfilled in a committed marriage than outside of one.

    If you look to cases like Grace Millane we see that the current pickup culture is extremely dangerous. Here's a good article on the Guardian where they propose a list of safeguards for online dating. I think they are the wrong safeguards. I think the obvious one to start would be don't sleep with someone on the first date and put someone you don't know in an extremely intimate place with you. The second one which people will ridicule is don't sleep with someone until you know they are committed to you. The best environment for that commitment to be expressed in is marriage.

    Perhaps the ideas that we're throwing away are perhaps the best ones.

    In an Irish context (in 2015) 85% of rapists are known to their victims - up from 70% for women in 2002. So ‘current pick up culture’ wouldn’t be a primary driver of instances of rape here. You’re far more likely to be raped by a partner, friend or acquaintance.


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    #178
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    Silentcorner wrote: »
    This is a video of Heather McDonald calmly explaining how the Rape Crisis in the US is a complete fabrication.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiBtWbgbfVA&t=501s

    The whooping and cheering at 17:42 tells you all you need to know about what these young liberal women want today. As for the young man who makes the comment they react to, that shows us just how brainwashed young liberal males are also. A heavy slice of him thinking making such a comment will get him female attention also I expect.


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    #179
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    Rape culture is overstated for sure but so is false accusation culture.

    There is no such thing as rape culture in western society and so it's not overstated, it's fabricated.


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    #180
    alastair
    Registered Users Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    The whooping and cheering at 17:42 tells you all you need to know about what these young liberal women want today. As for the young man who makes the comment they react to, that shows us just how brainwashed young liberal males are also. A heavy slice of him thinking making such a comment will get him female attention also I expect.

    Heather Mac Donald is full of it. The ‘young man’ is applauded because he exposed the lie at the heart of Mac Donald’s claim. Suspect you’re projecting with the ‘female attention’ thing.

    https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/09/how-the-left-killed-universities-and-everything-else


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    #181
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    alastair wrote: »
    Heather Mac Donald is full of it. The ‘young man’ is applauded because he exposed the lie at the heart of Mac Donald’s claim. Suspect you’re projecting with the ‘female attention’ thing.

    https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/09/how-the-left-killed-universities-and-everything-else

    He's applauded after saying if "someone says they've been raped they've been raped". This is patently not true.


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