Consent (Sexual)

creditcarder

alastair wrote: »

Heather Mac Donald is full of it. The ‘young man’ is applauded because he exposed the lie at the heart of Mac Donald’s claim. Suspect you’re projecting with the ‘female attention’ thing.

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/09/how-the-left-killed-universities-and-everything-else

Find it funny how the audience are happy with how he's calling an older woman deluded because they agree with what he says :P



Man, I feel bad for men. They're getting clapped on the back for being absolute tossers.

creditcarder

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Rape culture is overstated for sure but so is false accusation culture.

I disagree, but I class consensual sex while drunk to be consensual sex while drunk and lack of a verbal yes to not automaticly equal rape. I'd class both cases as a false accusation imo



You know, there is two people invovled in sex :P

creditcarder

creditcarder wrote: »

I disagree, but I class consensual sex while drunk to be consensual sex while drunk and lack of a verbal yes to not automaticly equal rape. I'd class both cases as a false accusation imo



You know, there is two people invovled in sex :P

This rubbish again.
Being just drunk & having just drunk sex is not rape.
No-one claims it is.
Jaysis, it's really not hard to figure it out.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

There is no such thing as rape culture in western society and so it's not overstated, it's fabricated.

Point of my post spectacularly missed.

One can’t talk about there not being a rape culture but make claims about rampant false accusations. Sexual assaults greatly outnumber false accusations of sexual assault. So if there’s no rape culture, there’s no false accusation culture either.

CtevenSrowder

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Point of my post spectacularly missed.

One can’t talk about there not being a rape culture but make claims about rampant false accusations. Sexual assaults greatly outnumber false accusations of sexual assault. So if there’s no rape culture, there’s no false accusation culture either.

Who is saying there is a false accusation culture?

creditcarder

bubblypop wrote: »

This rubbish again.
Being just drunk & having just drunk sex is not rape.
No-one claims it is.
Jaysis, it's really not hard to figure it out.

You should research the latest cases and swedish law.

Point of my post spectacularly missed.

One can’t talk about there not being a rape culture but make claims about rampant false accusations. Sexual assaults greatly outnumber false accusations of sexual assault. So if there’s no rape culture, there’s no false accusation culture either.

You're kind of proving my point by lumping sexual assault (which can be anything tbh) and rape.

creditcarder

creditcarder wrote: »

You should research the latest cases and swedish law.

You're kind of proving my point by lumping sexual assault (which can be anything tbh) and rape.

Swedish law is not Irish law.
Which latest cases are you referring to?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

Who is saying there is a false accusation culture?

The exact wording ‘false accusation culture’ wasn’t used of course but there have been posts on this very thread saying that the rate of false accusations are higher than reported. I’m just making the point that one can’t say that rape is not as commonplace as made out but also say that false accusations are more commonplace than people think. Neither claim can really be verified so we’re working off belief here.

CtevenSrowder

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

The exact wording ‘false accusation culture’ wasn’t used of course but there have been posts on this very thread saying that the rate of false accusations are higher than reported. I’m just making the point that one can’t say that rape is not as commonplace as made out but also say that false accusations are more commonplace than people think. Neither claim can really be verified so we’re working off belief here.

The term culture gives the sense that the problem is rampant or accepted. I don't think anyone on this thread believes that the amount of false claims are larger than the amount of genuine claims, and as such, believes that there is a false accusation culture.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

The term culture gives the sense that the problem is rampant or accepted. I don't think anyone on this thread believes that the amount of false claims are larger than the amount of genuine claims, and as such, believes that there is a false accusation culture.

There are people on this thread who think that the rate of false accusations is higher than reported.

hatrickpatrick

bubblypop wrote: »

Being just drunk & having just drunk sex is not rape.
No-one claims it is.

A lot of people do, and their message is being adopted by mainstream society in a very poisonous and insidious way. And that's the crux of the issue.

Turquoise Hexagon Sun

Yeah, I disagree with the "we live in a rape culture." Rape isn't accepted in society. It's punishable by custodial sentences, public shame, job-loss, sex offender registry as well as threats and in some cases physical violence. If you go to prison and you are a rapist, you'll be a target for violence. We don't live in a rape culture.

We live in a society where rape exists and occurs, hardly a 'rape-culture society.'

Silentcorner

"Stay away from drunk women"....are we really heading there!!!

CtevenSrowder

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

There are people on this thread who think that the rate of false accusations is higher than reported.

OK. But you inferred this means they believe there is a culture of false accusations. It doesn't.

alastair

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLTN558ewqo

tillyfilly

alastair wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLTN558ewqo

very US biased, every 98 seconds doesn't apply in Ireland

Actually not a bad video in fairness.
Makes a lot of good normal points. Anyone with an open mind can see that

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

Actually not a bad video in fairness.
Makes a lot of good normal points. Anyone with an open mind can see that

It is. It was interesting. It's also interesting how the stats used for rape weren't differentiated from other forms of sexual assault, such as groping, sexual harassment etc. The rate of every 98 seconds (although wiki says it's 107 seconds per RAINN) refers to a wide variety of crimes from the minor to the major. There is no attempt to differentiate because they want to promote the idea that rape occurs far more than it actually does. It also places innocent mistakes, or misunderstandings such as perceived sexual harassment in the same category as rape, because sexual assault is an umbrella term to cover a wide range of issues.

The video is an extension of the Metoo movement which has no real scale, and where everything associated with rape.

The remainder about a rape culture was interesting. As tillyfilly said, it's very US based. Naturally enough, since we tend to use their stats when talking about these subjects. There are biases there too... if you have an open mind to notice them.

We have our own statistics, so we don't need to rely on other countries.
Just as an aside, sexual assault may be different then rape, but from a victims perspective, it may not matter.
A sexual assault can be a lot of things but it is still a violation, & to a victim can be every bit as bad.

osarusan

Getting back to the question in the OP, I don't there can ever be a way to 'prove' consent, in the event of an accusation. Written/video consent mean nothing really as no matter what was written or said, it can be rendered irrelevant just a second later.

If an accusation does happen, there is always the court system to test the validity of the accusation, and notwithstanding that I'm sure are there are some men in prison due to completely false claims, and that there are also men walking around who know they got away with rape, I think the court system does a reasonable job. And in court, it's not just a question of consent, because even when it is argued that consent had not been granted, it's also a question of 'reasonable belief that consent had been granted'.

I know some posters on here go mental about the idea of consent classes because of what they imagine is inevitable anti-male bias, but having seen a fair few threads on boards about different cases, and the variety of opinions about whether something is assault/rape or not, it's clear that what plenty of people think the laws say about consent is in some case very different from what they actually do say, and what people think the law 'should' be is irrelevant really (and, as those posters above show, even the police can be spreading incorrect information also).

Consent classes won't have any effect on people who know what they are doing is rape, but there are going to be lads in prison who never imagined that what they did amounted to rape.

AllForIt

Haven't been keeping up with the thread so forgive me I'm repeating points other's have made.

The whole notion of sexual relations 'consent' is fundamentally flawed.

One doesn't consent to one's sexual partner - you consent to yourself for engaging.

creditcarder

bubblypop wrote: »

We have our own statistics, so we don't need to rely on other countries.
Just as an aside, sexual assault may be different then rape, but from a victims perspective, it may not matter.
A sexual assault can be a lot of things but it is still a violation, & to a victim can be every bit as bad.

I disagree, and I'm suprised none of the female posters dragged you up on it tbh

creditcarder

On naother note, I think women should be given a button to a red light. While consenting, she can hold the button (giving consent) and, if she changes her mind at any second, she can let go of the button and a light will turn off.

There should be a psychologist involved to make sure that a) The woman is of sound mind, and b) there is no duress of any kind including daddy issues. There should also be a guidance counsellor to make sure that there is not any monetary or social class diferentiations to make sure that woman can actually consent.

Afterward, they can be on their way. A big police officer should be lingering as close as physically posible so that the woman can feel physically safe. Then, and only then, can we be 100% sure about what happened.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

CtevenSrowder wrote: »

OK. But you inferred this means they believe there is a culture of false accusations. It doesn't.

Well, that’s my own impression.

OneEightSeven

bubblypop wrote: »

This rubbish again.
Being just drunk & having just drunk sex is not rape.
No-one claims it is.
Jaysis, it's really not hard to figure it out.

That wasn't the case for Ched Evans. He had consensual sex with a drunk woman and was convicted on anecdotal data.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Evans_and_McDonald#Trial

On 20 April 2012, the jury returned its verdicts. McDonald was acquitted. Evans was convicted of rape and sentenced to five years imprisonment. Judge Merfyn Hughes QC stated in his sentencing remarks that: "The complainant was 19 years of age and was extremely intoxicated. CCTV footage shows, in my view, the extent of her intoxication when she stumbled into your friend. As the jury have found, she was in no condition to have sexual intercourse. When you arrived at the hotel, you must have realised that."

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-37659009

He has always denied having sex with the woman while she was too drunk to consent.

He insisted she had agreed to let him "join in" while she was having consensual sex with fellow footballer Clayton McDonald, 27 - who was cleared of rape at the original trial - after a night out in Rhyl.

His legal team argued the case was "built around the myth" the complainant had been too drunk to agree to sex.

The prosecution alleged the woman did "not have the freedom or capacity to consent".

suicide_circus

i've never had to attend a "consent class" but i'd be interested in hearing what proponents of such things have to say about the retrospective withdrawal of consent.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

We have our own statistics, so we don't need to rely on other countries.

And yet, we do. I didn't see you objecting to the video above, considering there is a vast difference between US and Irish culture....

Just as an aside, sexual assault may be different then rape, but from a victims perspective, it may not matter.
A sexual assault can be a lot of things but it is still a violation, & to a victim can be every bit as bad.

I doubt anyone seriously considers being groped by a guy in a bar, as being every bit as bad as a brutal rape. Except, possibly, the victim.

Scale of an offense is important.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

And yet, we do. I didn't see you objecting to the video above, considering there is a vast difference between US and Irish culture....



I doubt anyone seriously considers being groped by a guy in a bar, as being every bit as bad as a brutal rape. Except, possibly, the victim.

Scale of an offense is important.

That depends on the groping.
If a guy in a bar, forces his hand up someone's skirt & forces his hand somewhere else, then who are you to say that doesn't have a huge effect on the victim.

I said the video had some interesting points in it. Doesn't have to be Irish to have interesting points.

osarusan

osarusan wrote: »

Consent classes won't have any effect on people who know what they are doing is rape, but there are going to be lads in prison who never imagined that what they did amounted to rape.

Have you attended a consent class? If not, then, it's still all speculation, the same as most other peoples opinions on the matter.

I've heard conflicting reports on consent classes because they don't follow an agreed upon standard format. Different places emphasize different things in gaining consent, whereas many don't even dwell on gaining consent, and simply focus on what a male shouldn't do. There's a lot of gray areas because they don't want to be specific.

There's also the aspect that women are not being encouraged to go to such classes when it's obvious, that they need the knowledge as much as the men. But that would be victim blaming, or rather blaming of a future victim, and therefore bad (and ignoring that women can also be offenders against both males and other females, but.... never mind.). Just as we aren't encouraging self-defense classes, personal safety classes, etc. There's a rather strong illogical double standard.. "Teach" the gender most likely to offend, but don't teach the gender most likely to be vulnerable.

bubblypop

bubblypop wrote: »

That depends on the groping.
If a guy in a bar, forces his hand up someone's skirt & forces his hand somewhere else, then who are you to say that doesn't have a huge effect on the victim.

Who am I to say? Hilarious. Who are you to say? :rolleyes:

It's still not a brutal rape.

said the video had some interesting points in it. Doesn't have to be Irish to have interesting points.

Ok. never mind. Forget it.