General British politics discussion thread

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119114388#Comment_119114388

She absolutely had a choice. The backstop afterwards was just going against the red lines she had already set but she is the one who made Brexit as hardline as it has become. Whether it was through cowardice, belief, or inability to stand up to the ERG it doesn't really matter.

pixelburp

It speaks to where UK politics has dropped to that Theresa May is being discussed with a degree of fondness and respect. British politics truly is in the toilet.

Sam Russell

May was a Remainer - she wanted to Remain Home Secretary - that was the extent of her ambition as far as Brexit was concerned. She was weak as a leader, being thrust into it before her experience warranted her taking the job. Her biggest mistake as PM was to call a GE when she did.

She was unable to campaign in the GE and lost the majority she had - against Corbyn? That sums up her ability as PM.

However, following from the current clown PM, she can be more authoritarian and move the ERG out of power - if there is any talent left in the Tories.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119115355#Comment_119115355

She wasn't, really. She was quite concerned with security which was an argument to remain but that's about it. She had no belief in the EU, free movement or anything else about the rest of Europe. She was more than happy to draw daft red lines which destroyed her ability to negotiate.

Few expected Brexit to carry, her included no doubt. Once it did, she did a volte face instantly.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119115279#Comment_119115279

I mean, she did seem to care about something greater than personal gain in fairness to her. That's just the standard now considering Johnson partied like Caligula while nearly 200,000 Britons died of covid.

Shelga

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119115478#Comment_119115478

I know where you’re coming from, but the things she cared about that were bigger than herself were issues such as creating the famous hostile environment, “go home” posters, and the Windrush scandal. If that’s evidence of someone with principles- well ok then.

She strikes me as someone who has never lived outside white middle class areas in the Home Counties, and this has informed her world view. I don’t think she’s particularly smart, or principled, or kind. She’s just not as venal and corrupt as Johnson.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119116259#Comment_119116259

I'm not defending her at all. The hostile environment was and is a moral abomination. My point was merely that she didn't see being PM as a way to enrich herself and a horde of cronies. She had views and ideas that she wanted to implement. She tried to address the challenges of an ageing population. Badly. She tried to preserve the union but had already ceded too much power to the DUP. She at least tolerated dissent within the party and kept some semblance of talent around instead of selecting for sycophancy.

No way I'd ever vote for her or anything like that of course. As @pixelburp has said above, this is now the standard we have to use to judge PM's here.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119069716#Comment_119069716

The Tories just have to be less arrogant, obnoxious than Labour, be somewhat more credible or slightly capable than Labour.

That's an easy task for them, though Starmer has made it harder.

People will continue to Vote to keep Labour out rather than the Tories in.

Shelga

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119116273#Comment_119116273

I do think it's an interesting discussion though. The longer the time since May was PM, the more I hear people talk about her like she was full of integrity and principles (you have in no way said this, I'm more thinking of my mother!), which I see as purely an indicator of how awful Johnson was, nothing more.

What did May stand for? I genuinely can't think of anything. "Brexit means Brexit"- meaningless rubbish. You say she had policies about the ageing population etc- I don't think this is what comes to mind when people think of her. I do agree she seemed to care about the union, somewhat- but then why engage with Brexit as an idea at all? You're either unprincipled, or dim. Maybe you're right, and it was the latter, in her case.

Blair and Thatcher are by far and away the two most notable PMs of the last half century, and I think you could say that both of them had principles and integrity, and people knew what they stood for. I didn't agree with Thatcher's politics at all, but you could argue she had integrity in the sense that she really believed in what she was trying to do, and had a clear vision. May just seemed to latch on to whatever would drum up support, whether that was the hostile environment or Brexit. I do think that's because she wasn't strong enough or intelligent enough to have any real vision of her own, not because she was as spineless as Johnson, per se.

PommieBast

@Shelga

What did May stand for? I genuinely can't think of anything. "Brexit means Brexit"- meaningless rubbish. You say she had policies about the ageing population etc- I don't think this is what comes to mind when people think of her. I do agree she seemed to care about the union, somewhat- but then why engage with Brexit as an idea at all? You're either unprincipled, or dim. Maybe you're right, and it was the latter, in her case.

At the time I thought the u-turn on the "death tax" was the point she blew the election. For once a politician recognising it cannot simply be the young always paying for the old, and had she stuck to her guns I would have been happy to vote for her.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119116308#Comment_119116308

This seems to be rather ignoring the consistent and sizeable lead Labour have held in opinion polls for a prolonged period now.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119120422#Comment_119120422

"The public don't care" and "Tory's being scum is useless Labour's fault" have been the recurring gaslighting themes on here for a while now.

Ellian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119112473#Comment_119112473

Chris Bryant recused himself - it'd a cross party committee. If they find out he misled the house, there's not really anywhere for him to go. If they suspend him for ten days, which seems likely given Owen Patterson, I believe that triggers a by-election he can still run but given that his majority is only about 5000 votes before his inept premiership, I suspect that good people of Uxbridge might revise their thoughts about who they want as their MP.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119116794#Comment_119116794

I want to respond to @Shelga's post properly but I'll address this quickly.

The Tories' main base is the elderly. The young don't vote in the numbers needed to turf them out. The "Death tax" was a clumsy attempt to prepare for the challenges of an ageing population. The same base is also largely the only demographic that buys newspapers so they went to town on her. It became the "Dementia tax".

Don't get me wrong. There was more money for each DUP MP than premier league footballers when it was needed so I think it was an ill-thought you move but the core motivation isn't wrong in and of itself.

Nody

Anyone want to guess what the outcome of the committee is likely to be based on the updated new policy that don't require them to resign if they breach the Ministerial Code?

Ministers who are found to have breached the Ministerial Code will no longer be automatically expected to resign or face the sack, according to a new government policy statement.The statement said it would be “disproportionate” to expect a minister to lose their job for “minor” breaches of the code.

The prime minister could instead order “some form of public apology, remedial action or removal of ministerial salary for a period”.

The statement added: “Reflecting the prime minister’s accountability for the conduct of the executive, it is important that a role is retained for the prime minister in decisions about investigations.”

Ahwell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119122652#Comment_119122652

 “knowingly” misleading the House of Commons a is still a resignation matter though.

He has also rewritten the foreword to the code, removing all references to honesty, integrity, transparency and accountability. It seems a crazy time to be pulling a stunt like this, he obviously learnt nothing from the Owen Paterson fiasco. This is not going to play well.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119122730#Comment_119122730

'It seems a crazy time to be pulling a stunt like this, he obviously learnt nothing from the Owen Paterson fiasco. This is not going to play well.'

There is always 'Look, squirrels over there!' and quite a few convenient dead cats to divert attention from important matters that are best ignored by the Gov.

Don't forget, the Brexit bill was put through when the MPs were given no time to even read it, let alone pars it for any landmines, like a NI Protocol that might cause a bit of difficulties later.

devnull

Daily Mail are expected to return to Beergate tomorrow and look to heap pressure on Durham Police.

https://www.mailplus.co.uk/edition/news/politics/185898/beergate-will-cummings-cop-let-keir-off-the-hook

It's clear what their game is, play down anything Johnson does, play up Starmer and hope the Police get pressured to fine him and then play the narrative they're both as bad as each other or Starmer is worse.

is_that_so

Circling wolves in the Tory party but probably likely to come up short of the total of 54 for a leadership challenge. It is quite astonishing how he shamelessly keeps hanging on.

https://news.sky.com/story/partygate-three-more-tory-mps-urge-boris-johnson-to-quit-how-many-now-want-him-to-resign-12624248

amacca

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119136442#Comment_119136442

He might as well....its not as if the train isn't well beyond the point of no return now in any event......

+ the strategy has continued to be effective.......

pixelburp

Well, the first deportations to Rwanda are to begin June 14. And, presumably, the first human rights abuses will be reported about a month or two later.

But don't worry, the deportees are going to be well looked after. Sure it'll be a holiday, they'll love it! Why even flee to the UK, Rwanda sounds much better!

As someone else said here, this is pulling the ladder up by Patel

Once in Rwanda, there is a generous support package, including up to five years of training, accommodation, and healthcare on arrival in Rwanda. Under this partnership the UK is also investing an initial £120m into the economic development and growth of Rwanda

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/may/31/first-rwanda-deportation-flight-leave-uk-14-june-priti-patel

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142759#Comment_119142759

Yet it is a strategy that was highly effective when applied by Australia.

It's not pulling the ladder up, it's that not even the Tories are as free market as to allow it continue.

Patel should be commended. It's going to be popular among working class communities, among rich middle class activist types, not really.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142782#Comment_119142782

Commended for taking the 'hostile environment' and ramping it up to 11 while the UK are in a massive labour shortage crisis?

This tory government takes the most self destructive parts of the human psyche and just runs with them

Nody

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142782#Comment_119142782

I do sure hope those working class people don't complain about tax increases and benefit cuts then because it's going to be more expensive, per person leaving the country, than any other existing solution which they will ultimately pay for from their salaries.

Podge_irl

"working class communities" is not, in fact, synonymous with bigoted, uncaring, heartless bastards and they have rather different priorities on their mind at the moment anyway.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142791#Comment_119142791

Even the Tories are not as free market as you are.

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142997#Comment_119142997

What do you suggest they should do? Throw the doors wide open and allow all and sundry in on dingys? The existing systems are not deterring people entrying illegally.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119143051#Comment_119143051

And give them gold-plated thrones and a bevy of slaves to cater to their every whim. 🙄

The vast majority of people arriving by this method are found to have valid asylum claims. There is also zero legal avenue for them to enter the country to make that claim. So open legal routes.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119143051#Comment_119143051

Chucking them on a plane to Rwanda and dusting one's hands off as Job Well Done is not an especially humane solution for cases of valid asylum, while throwing out the reduction that the alternative is the "open doors" hysteria not an especially helpful response either.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119142997#Comment_119142997

You are putting emotional labels on your Ayn Rand approach and you pretend it is solidarity.