General British politics discussion thread

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119466758#Comment_119466758

Easier way to remember this: "Not as bad, isn't good."

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119465913#Comment_119465913

Perhaps because the thread is about the UK?

ancapailldorcha

Mick Lynch is starting to sound a little silly:

https://twitter.com/AL301093/status/1558219961859973121

This smells like a No True Scotsman to me.

He's also engaged in a bit of victim blaming regarding Ukraine:

The general secretary of the RMT appeared to partly place the blame on the EU when asked about Russian aggression and whether Brexit had weakened the union.

He said the influence of the EU provoked “trouble” in the invaded country and also claimed that "there were a lot of corrupt politicians in Ukraine".

"It was all about being pro-EU and all the rest of it," he said, referring to the pro-EU demonstration which overthrew the President Viktor Yanukovych in 2014, who was a close friend of Vladimir Putin.

He told the New Statesman: "There were a lot of corrupt politicians in Ukraine. And while they were doing that, there were an awful lot of people [in Ukraine] playing with Nazi imagery and going back to the [Second World] war, and all that. So, it's not just that this stuff has sprung from one place."

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/mick-lynch-ukrainians-playing-with-nazi-imagery-provoked-russian-war/

He was happy to risk workers' rights when it suited him regarding Brexit and now it looks like he's using his newfound fame to try and damage Labour.

Podge_irl

RMT's utterly ludicrous support for Brexit was bad enough, but this is basically a self-imposed character destruction.

It doesn't really undermine his arguments about the current economic situation, but it utterly destroys any notion that RMT themselves deserve support.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119467442#Comment_119467442

I disagree with the man on Brexit but I'd have been happy to give credit where it's due if he'd accomplished anything for the working people of this country. Now, he's just handed the tabloids a gun to shoot him with.

Being pro-Brexit doesn't mean that everything he says is wrong but I do think it undermines his sincerity somewhat. Austerity was disastrous for working class people and he rightly highlights this but he openly advocated a Brexit whose burdens would disproportionately fall on the working classes. That can't be ignored.

Podge_irl

Now, he's just handed the tabloids a gun to shoot him with.

That, but also demonstrated deeply questionable judgement. This is not just about the tabloid reaction (they react terribly to perfectly fine things) but it would have me questioning the leadership of the Union and their judgement in general. Depressing for workers who are faced with this as their representation.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119467442#Comment_119467442

Lynch is 100% correct in his attacks on the Conservative Party, but some of his comments on Ukraine and the EU are quite disgraceful - he obviously sees the union as a force for evil and this was the real reason he supported Brexit.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119467398#Comment_119467398

When I learned Lynch was a Brexiteer my patience for his admittedly effective straight talking took a sharp cooling. Now trying to Victim Blame the Ukrainians? He can get lost. Him and Mick Wallace or Boyd-Barrett and the others who glibly blame Ukraine for having the temerity to exist or have the self-determination the UK and Ireland long enjoyed.

Tom Mann Centuria

When large swathes of the working class voted Leave I don't really see how Lynch has weakened his position. Lots on the left, including a third of Labour Party members voted leave. Doesn't make their choice correct, so does it weaken his position in a Union. Doubtful.

His comments regarding Ukraine in 2014 (though Ukraine, like most former Soviet countries, Russia included, have some of the worst corruption going) certainly do him no favours, but if he secures his members a deal will they care? Probably not.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119467645#Comment_119467645

I agree that his comments on Ukraine and the EU are not overly relevant to his trade union role, but he should really be very careful about pumping out this far left propaganda and nonsense about 2014. Already, the legions of Putin bots on social media are seizing on them and agreeing with them.

Tom Mann Centuria

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119467683#Comment_119467683

Certainly naive, but he's 'authentic' bleugh because he'll answer every question he's asked. The left have been looking for a figurehead and he was the next cab off the rank, so probably why he's getting asked these gotcha questions. Maybe this will dent this figure head idea, but his Union role? As I say, I don't think so, but time will tell.

growleaves

The anti-NATO position of M. Lynch and other Old Left people was always there, it just never caused a conflict before now.

When I lived in England rail strikes used to mess up my schedule and it only gradually dawned on me that there was a powerful rail union that was openly Trotskyist (that was my impression at the time, at least) and somehow immune to all the union-busting of the Thatcher years and after. The union I was a member of, in a different industry, had been thoroughly de-toothed.

Its unsurprising to me in a way that Lynch is not prepared to bend since unlike a lot of people, most people, he has gotten by by not making compromises.

But support for an independent Britain should translate easily into support for an independent Ukraine.

Tom Mann Centuria

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119467746#Comment_119467746

It should translate as support for an independent Ukraine you're correct. Regardless of what they perceive as reasons for a conflict, when one country invades another it should be pretty easy to tell who the bad guys are. Let the historian's look at causes afterwards. But this is the UK politics thread so I'm going off topic.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119467764#Comment_119467764

Lynch's views on the EU and Ukraine seem very naive and simplistic. I don't know where he got the idea that the EU caused the Maidan Revolution. Certainly, close links between Ukraine and the EU versus links with Russia were something of a flashpoint, but the revolution was really about internal struggles in Ukraine and the EU were total bystanders and not involved.

Normally, a UK trade union leader holding these views would be a non issue, but we are in the middle of a war where innocent people are being killed by the Putin regime daily.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119363093#Comment_119363093

Labour will never agree to ending FPTP

Podge_irl

Lynch's interviews and commenting on Tory policy wrt inflation and wages etc remain strong. But stuff like this is exactly why Labour don't want to be associated or controlled by the Unions. And it should also be a lesson for some people who were decrying why people like Lynch are not in politics.

Sam Russell

Mick Lynch is an old Labour supporter - as in Labour Union supporter. More Corbyn than Starmer.

Tom Mann Centuria

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119468344#Comment_119468344

A socialist in other words.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119468359#Comment_119468359

I suppose, but put another way, not from the same wing as Starmer.

He favours Brexit, and voted for it. He still favours Brexit but not this Brexit - he sees Brexit as a way of protecting sovereignty, but I am not sure how that is achieved if a country joins a supra-national entity like the UN, the ECHR, the WTO, NATO, etc.

He favours nationalisation of energy companies, and the railways. Is against precarious employment that is everywhere in the UK. He favours more secure tenancy for renters. Nothing wrong with these views if you are a Labour supporter - just not if you are Starmer.

Tom Mann Centuria

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119468392#Comment_119468392

It's a nice summation, Starmer himself is not keen on using the S word these days, though he was loud and proud about it in his leadership bid.

I would add that while clearly not being a fan of Starmer at present Lynch still wants a Labour win next election.

Sam Russell

Labour Union movement is not quite aligned with Socialism. Many ideas are common, but not all.

Socialism is about equalising the lives of all, not favouring any part (particularly not the rich and privileged). Equal opportunities for all - including access to third level. Unfortunately this third level aspiration has come at the cost of apprenticeships. Now there are few upcoming plumbers, electricians, brick layers etc.

Education is the key to this levelling up, but academic learning has its limitation when it comes to employment and career chances. Vocational learning is better but not as shiny. UK education has suffered significant dumbing down over the last 50 years. Just watch the many quiz programmes on UK TV as contestants display their ignorance to the world of basic UK and world geography, English and world history, literature, science, etc. If the contestants are not selected for their ignorance, the UK education is in real trouble.

Unions are there simply to protect the interests of their members - which is not quite the same thing - but could come close. Sometimes they allow their interests to be applied to all - which is socialism.

The Tories are opposed to both - with a passion.

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119467683#Comment_119467683

A problem with having any sort of intelligent discussion on Ukraine is that any questioning of the West(Nato) position has you labelled as a Putin bot.

Lynch is right to question what went on in Ukraine in the past ten years. Questioning some dangerous Neo Nazi elements in Ukraine does not excuse Putin's invasion. Whatever about the EU, certainly potential alignment with NATO was a factor in the Russian decision to invade.

The UKs left problem with the EU was the same as their problem with the right-wing in UK. But it reflected a weakness in the left that they never envisaged working with the left in other countries towards a socialist agenda, in the way that right wing marketeers have done. And that is a failure of the left not of the right. Ironically, the EU single market was a major UK success.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119468392#Comment_119468392

Brexit was always going to be a Tory Brexit. I've never understood the Lexiter logic. Brexit was about stripping the state, slashing taxes and services and enriching Tory donors. Lynch will have known this and signed up to it. Any Labour government regardless of who is running it will have their hands full installing all of the required checks under the current FTA to negotiate anything new.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469383#Comment_119469383

The Kremlin are literally paying large numbers of people to say on social media that Zelensky and Ukraine are 'corrupt', 'dodgy', 'not as innocent as they are made out to be' etc. Once you go down this route, you are automatically aligning yourself with Russian propaganda, even if that is not the intention.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119469383#Comment_119469383

Not sure now is really the time. There have been discussions on this pre 2014 and should be again. But then one country is trying to make the other not exist anymore that can wait.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119454829#Comment_119454829

Nuclear is a money pit. You need to keep shovelling money AND pay for other generators to keep the lights on during the multi year delays. Hinkley-C has increased in price by £3Bn so far this year. It's like Brexit. Lots of benefits, until you look behind the curtain. Lots of lies repeated.

French nuclear isn't producing over 70% of their electricity. Right now it's not even producing 40% of French nuclear capacity. Despite everything you've heard nuclear is unreliable. When it goes down it can stay down. France has 27 out of 56 reactors offline. About 5 others are on reduced load because they rivers are already too warm to accept all the cooling water.

Since the start of 1986 France has started and completed the construction of just ONE working nuclear power plant so don't expect a big rollout or a quick fix.

This time last year France was exporting nearly 15 GW of electricity ,

Now they are importing the stuff.

The chickens have come home to roost.

blackwhite

For full year 2021 nuclear was 69% of France’s production

https://pris.iaea.org/pris/CountryStatistics/CountryDetails.aspx?current=FR

Picking a specific point during the year when there’s scheduled maintenance as well as extreme weather impacts is pretty disingenuous

ancapailldorcha

In other news, it looks like Sir Keir might finally have said something worth saying:

The Labour leader, Keir Starmer, is to call for a ban on crippling energy price rises this autumn in a move that would save the average household more than £2,000 a year on gas and electricity bills, the Observer can reveal.

The demand to freeze the energy price cap at the current £1,971 level – blocking the regulator Ofgem from allowing a huge anticipated rise to around £3,600 in October – will place intense pressure on the Tory leadership candidates Liz Truss and Rishi Sunak to follow suit when one becomes prime minister.

Starmer’s plan, to be announced on Monday, comes as 70 of the country’s biggest charities and organisations across health, mental health, education, care and other sectors, today warn Truss and Sunak in a joint letter of dire consequences throughout British society unless they take more drastic action to address the energy and wider cost of living crises.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/aug/13/keir-starmer-demands-ban-on-raising-energy-prices

I don't know if he's trying to avoid making promises that he can't keep or he's just naturally cautious but it's nice to hear something that might actually make a difference.

Podge_irl

I don't know if he's trying to avoid making promises that he can't keep

If he is its a bit pointless as being in a position you will have to break some promises is almost inevitable. Obviously there is a scale of things, but its going to happen - its not a good reason to be overly cautious in opposition I think. I tend to think he is just inherently cautious though.

Igotadose

UK Inflation hits a 40 year high:

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2022/0817/1316169-uk-inflation-hits-double-digits-highest-since-1982/

I wonder if they'll be instituting wage and price controls,. The estimated annual energy bill per household will be £4000, 4 times what it was in 2021. Currently £2000 which is double 2021.