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General British politics discussion thread

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    #6722
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 25,706 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119723695#Comment_119723695

    Funny you could have said the same about Brexit in the late 90s early 00s



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    #6723
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,485 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119724821#Comment_119724821

    You're contradicting yourself. It's only nerds who care about PR but then if 2011 was a referendum on PR, it would have won.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #6724
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,650 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119724821#Comment_119724821

    If a referendum is run without a proper programme of information to explain the proposal, arguments in favour and against, the effect of a vote in favour and the benefits of a vote in favour.

    Alternatives* to the proposal - picking one voting system while ignoring all others is an attempt to force a NO vote.

    None of this was done.

    *The term 'Alternative vote is ambiguous at the least. The British voting system is completely designed to keep political parties in control.



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    #6725
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,298 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    The 2010 election gave Britain a coalition government for 5 years.

    Is this the type of result you want to see happen more frequently?



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    #6726
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,740 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725059#Comment_119725059

    What's wrong with a coalition government if it more accurately represents the views of voters?



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    #6727
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,485 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725059#Comment_119725059

    Yes. I take it you've given up on your pathetic both sides argument.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #6728
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,298 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725067#Comment_119725067

    Nothing at all . But I suspect if they did use PR the Tories would continue to win every election and people would still be moaning.



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    #6729
    HalloweenJack
    Registered Users Posts: 7,201 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119724812#Comment_119724812

    You're comparing two very different systems and holding up the results as if they were the same.

    There's no such thing as first preference in FPTP. Its a single vote. If your favurite doesn't get in, your vote is practically wasted. You no longer have any influence on the outcome.

    PR-STV gives you the chance to suggest a preference if your favourite doesn't get in. With transfers, your vote can still play an important role. Therefore, first preference isn't as important and becomes largely irrelevant once the politican reaches the quota. At that point, your remaining preferences become important and the result is a selection of TDs that is more representative of the constituency's preference as a whole, not just those who voted for the 'winner'.

    Because of the intricacies of PR-STV, I'd be fairly certain that the most voted TD's first preference % is more often than not considerably lower the % of votes for a winner in FPTP as its not an all-or-nothing vote.



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    #6730
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,740 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725125#Comment_119725125

    That would be very unlikely. The Tories need FPTP.



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    #6731
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,298 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725146#Comment_119725146

    Tory UKIP coalitions. Can't wait.



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    #6732
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,485 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725166#Comment_119725166

    Why?

    UKIP, the Brexit party, Reform and Farage's other grifting platforms are dead.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #6733
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,740 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725166#Comment_119725166

    Again, not very likely. The Tories would find it difficult to get into government in a PR system, since it would actually be representative of the whole voter base. The left / centre-left will outvote the right by sheer numbers, the problem has always been the splitting of the vote which PR eliminates.

    The Tories have an absolute majority in Parliament right now, despite the fact that more people didn't vote for them than those that did.



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    #6734
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,583 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725166#Comment_119725166

    The Tories only gained their majority because Farage stood down prior to the last election. He did that because they were in real danger of splitting the vote and letting many Labour/Lib Dems candidates in.

    The 'left' is more popular but more split. The potential split of the 'right' was the very reason why we had the Brexit ref in the first place, Cameron was trying to cut UKIP off at the knees. That play to keep hold of all of the right has cost the UK very dearly in the years since.



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    #6735
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,953 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119724812#Comment_119724812

    What an incredibly disingenuous and false comparison, our first preference and FPtP are wildly different things but of course you already know that.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725125#Comment_119725125

    All evidence points to the contrary, PR is a far more representative voting system. The only way the tories would win is if they somehow increased their voter share to over 50% which has never once happened in the last 100 years.



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    #6736
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,447 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    I think I heard recently that the UK haven't had a census in a very long time, or maybe a recent poorly run one. Wouldn't a reasonably accurate census be required to even get started on replacing FPTP?



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    #6737
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,485 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725833#Comment_119725833

    There's a census every 10 years with the most recent being in 2021.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #6738
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,298 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119725520#Comment_119725520

    I don't detect huge popularity for a left wing position in the UK. The same is the case in Ireland. This is why Labour has to move to the centre if they want to win any election.

    PR or first passed the post will produce similar governments and similar decisions in my view. No change. Instead of a one party government, we get the Irish nonsense of months of no government and then parties which are basically the same forming a gov.

    The Tories are extremely popular in the UK particularly in England. That isn't going to change.



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    #6739
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,485 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726325#Comment_119726325

    If the Tories are so popular, why have they consistently failed to gain a majority of the vote?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #6740
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,740 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726325#Comment_119726325

    It's like you live in some alternate reality.

    I am unsure as to where to start with the idea that PR and FPTP would produce the same outcome. The Tories got 43% of the vote, but they have 56% of the seats. This would not happen in PR.

    The Tories are not extremely popular, as evidenced by the fact they never win the popular vote. They just have enough people in enough constituencies to win a FPTP election. If it were PR, and every vote really counted, they would not have anywhere near as many seats as the outcome would more closely represent the views of the electorate.



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    #6741
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 25,706 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    PR would strip away the uneven power of the shires which is a huge problem for the Tories.



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    #6742
    HalloweenJack
    Registered Users Posts: 7,201 ✭✭✭HalloweenJack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726325#Comment_119726325

    In your view.

    Coalitions mean that the bigger party has to reel it in and, at least, needs to hold up the agreements with their coalition partners. It also means that the programme for government has to appeal to voters of all the coalition parties and tends to be a dilution of the more extreme points.

    One-party governments don't need to worry about that and just do whatever they like, e.g. this Tory government.

    Do you think the Tories would have legalised same-sex marriage or held a referendum on changing the voting system if it weren't for the coalition with the Lib Dems?

    I'm sure the make-up of previous governments in UK history would be very different if they had used PR-STV, as would that in Ireland if we had used FPTP. FF would likely have ruled non-stop.

    In your view it's not the same but your view is nonsense. They are two different systems with different results. For whatever reason, you refuse to see it.



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    #6743
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,298 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726422#Comment_119726422

    The Tories aren't popular? Alternative reality there.



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    #6744
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,953 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726325#Comment_119726325

    How are they extremely popular when they have never been able to win a majority of voters? Im not saying Labour are extremely popular either but your argument holds no water. In 2017 the Tories won 42.3% of the votes and got 317 seats, yes they were the MOST popular party however Labour was a very close second with 40% yet only won 262 seats. A 2.3% difference in a house of 650 seats should equate closely to a 13 seat difference not 55.

    If at 42 percent in your world the Tories are extremely popular Labour being 2% behind them would make them almost just as popular. Also look at the most recent polls the tories arent popular at the moment by any definition of the word

    You seem to base your argument of their popularity solely on the number of seats they win which has actually nothing to do with their popularity due to FPtP.



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    #6745
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,298 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726627#Comment_119726627

    FF did rule almost non stop.



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    #6746
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,953 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726802#Comment_119726802

    Indeed but have had to rely on independents and form a coalition at least 6 times. 1987 was the last time they won an election outright, since then they have been part of 6 coalitions and facilitated 1 minority government with a confidence and supply arrangement.



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    #6747
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,650 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    If FPTP was eliminated and replaced with PR/STV, single seat, then every vote counts, and the first with 50% + of the votes wins, or until only two remain, and the one with the most votes wins.

    Simple system for the voters - vote in the order of your choice. That means you can give Lord Bucket Head your first preference, and then vote for who you really want after that. In FPTP, such a vote would be wasted.

    Some seats are super safe and the voting system would still return the same result, while the ones that change hands at most elections could well give a very different result. The Greens are well found in Brighton - probably because they proved that they could win - and so have retained the seat in subsequent elections. PR/STV would give more examples of that.

    With multi-seat constitutions, the proportion of seats mirrors voters first preference down to 5%. Now that would be a sight to behold for the UK. They might even elect Lord Bucket Head.



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    #6748
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,298 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726801#Comment_119726801

    In England I said. Their vote share is close to 50% in England.



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    #6749
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,298 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    If they had PR in Britain, Lib Dem voters would probably put the Tory candidate as their second preference.



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    #6750
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,953 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726874#Comment_119726874

    You actually said "the are extremely popular in the UK particularly in england" which doesn't really matter due to the HOC being made up from all countries of the UK which makes it incredibly unlikely for them to win an overall majority under PR.

    Theres a simple fix for that though dissolve the union.



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    #6751
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,298 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119726896#Comment_119726896

    With PR the Tories would win more seats in Scotland and Wales than they currently do.



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