General British politics discussion thread

PommieBast

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119981939#Comment_119981939

Hard to tell whether Brexit is cause, or symptom of something longer-running. The "mini" budget was ultimately due to those who got into office due to Brexit 'purity', but that budget was a dumpster fire in its own right.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119979065#Comment_119979065

The majority of the 39B for track and trade was for the colossal free testing apparatus set up. Something the govt also got a lot of crap for ending. The Tories have done much horrific stuff during the pandemic (mostly around their PPE procurement process which was rife with corruption) but the fact that people have decided to focus on the cost of track and trace always really irritates me. It didn’t work because it could never have worked but it was demanded by everyone and the cost is often compared to efforts such as in Ireland which didn’t include so much free testing kits.

Its not a good faith argument to me.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119982510#Comment_119982510

What irritates me about the pandemic is that Sunak seems to be getting off Scot free despite being at the illegal parties with Johnson.

Having an orange juice doesn't make him any less guilty.

Strazdas

Trouble brewing within the Conservative Party. This crowd don't seem to like Sunak and appear to think he is too left wing (!)

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1601868274895142912

ancapailldorcha

Ah, to be fair, they only think he's "centre-left".

Seriously though, remember when he was running in the contest against Liz Truss and he was somehow the remainer candidate despite haivng essays from his teenage years censuring the EU. It's weird. First, they broadened their electoral coalition to the point where it compromised their stability and now they've tearing the party apart, the thing we Brexited to prevent. Labour have struggled with this internecine factionalism for decades and they've never resolved it. Why they thought this was a good idea will forever remain beyond me.

pixelburp

Just vicious rats in a barrel at this stage, devouring each other without an ounce of awareness at how this may look to the outside, or effect the country they've been running for 12 years. letthemfight.gif, it'll just reignite the calls for a General Election.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119983484#Comment_119983484

Sure but we've at least another year of this nonsense before we see a GE. Probably two or three unless the markets decide the Tories have to go.

breezy1985

Well at least everyone is represented in the election between the left wing Sunak and the right wing Starmer 🤣

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119982723#Comment_119982723

oh yeah, its utterly bizarre. Probably just goes to show that Johnson could have survived just the parties if not for the fact it was heaped upon so many other things.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119982723#Comment_119982723

Nah, it's obvious that Johnson had a responsiblity for the partying in a way that Sunak didn't. He created and led the culture in which this happened; the parties were at his gaff; the attempted denial and cover-up was also his work; etc. I'm not a fan of Sunak's but he doesn't really stand in quite the same dock as Johnson when it comes to this charge.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119982463#Comment_119982463

It wasn't just that it was perpetrated by people who would never have got into office but for Brexit. It's also that it was fuelled by the same king of reality-denying simplistic magical thinking that drove Brexit. Brexit made that kind of thinking look politically credible.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119980019#Comment_119980019

"Where political parties go from here, in this post EU reality" is just another way of saying "how are the political parties going to deal with the consequences of Brexit"? Brexit is the most significant event in UK post-war political history. A discussion of contemporary British politics that doesn't treat Brexit as the central issue is unmoored from reality, basically.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119985891#Comment_119985891

Yes, it's not that Brexit was / is a bad event that happened alongside other ones in the last six years. It is arguably the single thing that caused most of the bad stuff to happen - Britain uncoupling itself from the international community with predictably disastrous consequences.

FraserburghFreddie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119985907#Comment_119985907

Britain hasn't uncoupled itself from the international community. The world doesn't revolve around the EU.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119985994#Comment_119985994

You're right. Partly uncoupled would be a better description.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119985994#Comment_119985994

Correct. But the UK has significantly degraded its relationship with its largest and closest neighbour, and furthermore has chosen to do so in a way that has adverse implications for its relationships with other countries generally, and of course for its domestic constitutional arrangements. Basically, the UK has significantly degraded its trading relationships, diminished its diplomatic standing and jeopardised its fundamental constitutional settlement in pursuit of an ideological commitment to a Brexiter concept of "sovereignty".

For present purposes, it's irrelevant whether we think this is good or not - Brexiters presumably think it's good. What matters is that it's significant. Brexiters must think that the very considerable economic and diplomatic price paid is justified by the importance of sovereignty and, therefore, that sovereignty is very important indeed. So both Brexiters and their opponents must see Brexit as Very Big Thing; they just differ about whether it's a Good Thing or a Bad Thing.

And, yeah, Good or Bad, it's a think that has fundamental implications for UK politics. It's certainly a bigger change to the UK and its position in the world than was entry into the EEC in 1973, or than was the Suez crisis. As I say, I think it's the biggest thing since 1945 and for years to come UK politics is going to be first and foremost about Brexit and how to respond to it. Even the political position which asserts that Brexit is done and no longer matters is, when you think about it, a political position about Brexit.

Hermy

The entire world may not revolve around the EU but an awful lot of trade and diplomacy does.

The UK not only leaving the EU but doing so in the most disorderly fashion imaginable while attempting to portray the EU as an oppressive regime robbing the UK of its right to self-determination may not be your definition of Britain uncoupling itself from the international community but they are most certainly swimming against the tide.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119986063#Comment_119986063

The EU is also a significant exporter of regulatory standards and is now home to the largest financial centre in Europe. A lot of countries will just adopt EU standards purely for convenience because it has so much influence due to it's being the wealthiest market in the world.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119986076#Comment_119986076

Well, yes. And, of course, as a leading member of the EU, the UK had a significant voice in setting regulatory standards of global significance. Brexit means stepping away from that, which is one of the ways in which the UK has, if not uncoupled itself from the international community, then diminished its role in, and engagement with, the international community.

FraserburghFreddie

So using that logic, if a country isn't a member of NATO(30 member states)does that mean said country is uncoupled from the international community?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119986421#Comment_119986421

Did you read the post before typing this? That wasn't remotely the point.

FraserburghFreddie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119986442#Comment_119986442

The suggestion that leaving or not being part of a particular organisation is uncoupling from the international community is incorrect whatever the context imo.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119986470#Comment_119986470

Indeed which begs the question of why you keep pushing this. Nobody else is saying this.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119986470#Comment_119986470

When the point of the organisation is to deepen, widen and strengthen links between countries, leaving it because you want more distant relationships, and less integration, with other states — and it's hard to characterise Brexit in any other terms — is not unfairly described as a partial uncoupling.

(And then there's a second level of uncoupling when the way in which you conduct your departure signals to the international community that you can't be relied on as a good faith actor in negotiations, and you don't regard yourself as bound by treaty obligations that you have entered into.)

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119985994#Comment_119985994

Well, the UK have caused a significant disjoint in its relationship with the EU and every member state.

It has also caused a disjoint with the USA over NI and the NI Protocol - the GFA and NIP is central to the open border with Ireland, and Biden sees that as a major problem and it is causing a stop on any trade deal between the UK/USA.

So remove USA and EU from the international community and who is left? China?

ancapailldorcha

In other news, it looks like the government's voting suppression strategy is going ahead.

https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1602228364777226241

I find it hard to read this as anything other than a pathetic and cynical ploy to block younger people from voting.

https://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voter-id-list-gives-few-options-for-younger-voters/

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119986685#Comment_119986685

These are the kind of things that can spectacularly backfire; witness GOP attempts to suppress the vote, which only ensured postal and early voting became a massive arm of democrat success. (Of course mouthpieces now declare postal voting corrupt so 🙄). A determined volume of advocacy groups could easily get the youth all ID'ed up, these now disgruntled young demographics now also aware of government shenanigans.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119985994#Comment_119985994

This was the mantra of the Brexiteers from 2016 to 2019 - "the UK doesn't need the 31 members of the EU Single Market and can forge new alliances and trade deals overseas". It's hogwash - Brexit UK has made itself a Billy No Mates and is much more isolated now. Australia are literally laughing at Britain at how they managed to shaft them in the UK-Aus trade deal.

FraserburghFreddie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119986529#Comment_119986529

I would prefer the UK to attempt to build bridges with the EU and even if a trade deal was on the cards with the US would be suspicious as they are notoriously ruthless when they have you over a barrel as they demonstrated in WW2 with their demands on Britain in exchange for weapons(You know that as you have an interest in military matters I believe).Having said that, in a military stance,the UK is probably the most hawkish European country which appears lacking in the other more capable European nations,to the irritation of the US.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119987157#Comment_119987157

Funny, but it's not the US with the rep for ignoring trade agreements, like the NIP. Sure, the UK didn't do well after WWII - country was on its knees and begging, and, well, they didn't get such a great deal. The few real life Brexiteers I've encountered here in Ireland (Brits), always bring this up. Sad, really, it's 2022 and your country has 'self-sanctioned' itself versus it's best partners. I'd suggest stop whining about WWII since you lost the peace, apparently.

But, yeah, trade agreements aren't for the faint hearted. It's why the post-Brexit agreements the UK has signed with the likes of Japan/Oz/NZ aren't very interesting to the UK economy; the UK really didn't have much leverage and so got owned. The process will continue imo until the UK really dwindles on the international stage. They do have nukes though and are hawkish, but I think over time you'll see less of that as the UK won't be able to afford a big military.