General British politics discussion thread

breezy1985

Well the festival of Brexit might have been a flop but England seems determined to create Fyre Festival 2 on the coast of Dover.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120431259#Comment_120431259

Nitpick: England was successfully invaded in 1688 (from the Netherlands, with support from a significant fifth column in England itself) and the monarchy was overthrown, and replaced with a different monarchy, which is still in place.

Sovereignty in Ireland is vested in the people, and the people decide to what extent we exercise it autonomously, and to what extent we exercise it collectively, though the EU. That's why treaties which confer new powers or functions on the EU have to be submitted to, and approved by, the people in a referendum before they can take effect. This isn't a political custom or convention but a constitutional and legal necessity.

In the UK sovereignty belongs to the Crown in Parliament. The people are consulted on matters of sovereignty only if, when and to the extent that, it suits one or other of the competing factions in the majority party in Parliament to consult them.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428574#Comment_120428574

When were we a nation state by your definition. Ireland is as independent as it has ever been. The reason we joined the EU was because the UK did, we never had a real choice as the country would have been ruined if we didn't do whatever the Brits did. It would not have even be malicious on behalf of the UK, it was just how it was. Had the UK left relatively quickly we also would have left. Is that independence? Just following along with whatever the UK does because that is what we would return to. UK rule by proxy. All standards would have to be the UK standards they produce because they are the bigger economy and our economy is so close to theirs. We wouldn't even have a say in them, why would we as it is their standards.

This is the first point we have actually stood away from the UK on policy. Ireland is not ruled by Brussels. As a nation state we are able to make agreements with other countries and well people and countries should abide by their agreements. This does not reduce their sovereignty.

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120434076#Comment_120434076

The Republic's accession to the EU was authorised by a referendum. The Irish government would not have wanted to be accused of going against the will of the people.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120440857#Comment_120440857

It wasn't a question of what the Irish government wanted. Ireland is a republic in which sovereignty is vested in the people, and the government (and the Oireachtas) only have so much authority as the people delegate to them in the Constitution. The terms of the Constitution did not allow either the government or the Oireachtas to undertake, on behalf of Ireland, the obligations entailed in EU membership, even if they wanted to. Legally, they needed to get the authority of the people, by way of a constitutional amendment.

By contrast, in the UK, sovereignty belongs to the Crown in Parliament. Legally, Parliament can do whatever it wants, and never needs to seek the authority of the people, either in a referendum or in a general election. If they do hold a referendum on some question, it will be because a combination of circumstances mean that the dominant faction in the then-governing party finds it politically desirable or convenient to do so.

cml387

In Ireland we also have had referendums that the governing party felt were convenient or politically desirable. It's not just European issues.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443428#Comment_120443428

Considering it took 35 years to get a referendum on the 8th repeal, convenient is probably a wrong choice of term. I'd have said "Important."

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443428#Comment_120443428

But an Irish referendum is never held as a deeply cynical political stunt, as happened with Cameron and his sham Brexit poll.

It is an actual requirement of the Constitution that a referendum is held whenever there are major changes to be made to constitutional law.

cml387

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443598#Comment_120443598

You might argue that the 1958 and 1968 referendums on PR were a cynical attempt by Fianna Fail to abolish PR because they thought it would get them a bigger majority.

The car crash that was the eight amendment was a proposal by a minority group (PLAC) which turned into a political football.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120440857#Comment_120440857

It was not asked before the UK joined for a reason. And while I agree with these things going to a referendum it was never a real choice. Ireland would not have been able to function without the UK and that meant the EU. The only other choice was even more crippling poverty.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443782#Comment_120443782

You could possibly argue that the referendum on abolishing the Seanad was also something of a stunt by Fine Gael. But as a rule, they are generally not used for cynical reasons or to boost support for a particular party.

Cameron clearly weaponised the Brexit referendum for political reasons and wasn't remotely interested in what the British public thought about anything.

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443912#Comment_120443912

The Irish referendum took place before Ireland and the UK joined what was known as the EEC.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120444816#Comment_120444816

Ish. The UK had been negotiating entry for a few years when the referendum happened and our negotiations were heavily linked with theirs (though that was also just smart for common interests). The Irish government also had to fight against the instinct in Europe to sort out the UK first as Ireland wanted to join at the same time to avoid a period of being outside the EU when the UK was in it.

Two previous attempts to join in the previous 12 years were not so much rejected as let slide by the Irish government when the UK was rejected.

Interestingly one of the main arguments for the yes side was to broaden the export market so we would not remain dependent on the UK. That particular argument seems to have been very accurate.

Sam Russell

The Anglo Irish Trade Agreement of 1965 was mostly in the UK's favour.

Joining the EEC on 1/1/1973 balanced things quite a bit. Subsequently, we improved our lot with EEC/EU help, going from 65% of EU GDP/head to over 100%. Quite an achievement.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120428745#Comment_120428745

The EU has no such end destination. There is no mention of any such end destination anywhere in the EU Treaties. It is a fantasy to suggest that there is such an end destination when it doesn’t appear in any treaty.

This was made quite clear in the special protocol that David C secured prior to the UK’s referendum.

In that protocol, the other member states - including Ireland - agreed that the EU Treaties do NOT oblige member states to keep doing what they are currently doing at EU level, never mind obliges them to increase what they are doing now or at a future date. And, also, that they, the member states, are perfectly free to do less at EU level if they so choose.

In addition, there is also the matter of the constitutions of the various member states. Most, like ours, state they are a nation. You can have pedantic arguments about what a nation is or isn’t but it clearly is not a state within some sort of a “United States” nation. Hence any attempt to create any form of United States would require multiple constitutions all over Europe to either be heavily revised or even replaced. No one is even considering, much less proposing, jaw droppingly massive constitutional changes like that all over Europe.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120444028#Comment_120444028

Cameron was a Eurosceptic, albeit not a rabid one. As a result, the Remain campaign, which was dominated by people like him, was basically saying “It’s sh&t being in the EU but hold your nose and vote for it anyway”.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120431129#Comment_120431129

England hasn’t existed as a nation since the 1707 Act of Union. And whether any country that uses FPTP is a democracy is questionable.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120445797#Comment_120445797

Well yes that is true.

Unfortunately, 'England' is synonymous with 'UK' for most Englanders, and many more. Not surprising, when the Bank of England, Church of England, Queen/King of England, the football team - England, the cricket team - England, the rugby team - England , etc. etc.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120445910#Comment_120445910

The confusion maybe correct however the term is still wrong since that nation doesn’t exist anymore.

In reality, democracy in the modern sense, of universal suffrage for both sexes that are 18 or over, really only dates from the 1920s or 30s in most countries.

Were our government to suggest holding an election on the terms that existed before that, no one would call such an election democratic today.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120443428#Comment_120443428

We only have referendums if the governing party wants to amend the Constitution. In that sense they are "convenient or politically desirable" or, at least, they are done in support of something which is convenient or politically desirable.

But they are also necessary — the government party cannot amend the Constitution without a referendum. The actual referendum process may not be at all convenient or politically desirable; it may be a big problem for the governing party, not least because they may not win it.

And no government in Ireland ever promotes a referendum in order to defeat enemies within the party, or to paper over cracks in parliament.

Akrasia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120446380#Comment_120446380

"And no government in Ireland ever promotes a referendum in order to defeat enemies within the party, or to paper over cracks in parliament"

It seems to be the opposite really. The 2 main parties are relatively conservative and tend to avoid referendums until they're pretty sure they'll pass (given the choice)

Brexit was a referendum that the government called 'knowing' it would lose in order to appease the lunatic fringe of the Tories. They knew it would lose so confidently that they didn't bother making any cogent arguments for remaining in the EU

To compound the error, Cameron thought he could have his cake and eat it by declaring the referendum to be 'advisory' which then meant the courts could decide that the normal rules on campaigning could be ignored without consequences

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120446645#Comment_120446645

Whether they secretly don't want it or not Irish parties hold referendums that they want to campaign for.

Cameron held 3 referendums that he campaigned against which is utterly stupid ( I know only 1 was actually his idea )

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120446645#Comment_120446645

Parties in Ireland avoid referendums unless (1) they want them to pass and (2) they are optimistic that they will pass.

This is a feature of the system, not a bug. We don't have qualified majorities for amending the constitution like they do in some countries, but we do have a two-stage process; an amendment has to be first approved by the Oireachtas and then approved by the people before it can take effect. Thus we couldn't have the Brexit-type stupidity of a referendum approving a course of action that the Oireachtas doesn't want to implement, hasn't thought about, and has no clue how to implement. Whether you like Irish referendums or not, they are more carefully considered than that.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that referendums don't go ahead unless the politicians are "pretty sure" they will pass. If that were true, it would mean that the politicians are bad judges of public opinion, because referendums do quite often fail. Unsuccessful referendums include two attempts to change the STV voting system, one attempt to change the rules on constituency boundaries, the first divorce referendum; two referendums (in 1992 and 2006) to reverse the X case and provide that a risk of suicide was not grounds for abortion; a referendum to abolish the Seanad; and others besides. I think if it's something they want to do and they hope to win a referendum, they'll go ahead.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120445453#Comment_120445453

Interestingly one of the main arguments for the yes side was to broaden the export market so we would not remain dependent on the UK. That particular argument seems to have been very accurate.

True, we used our membership to end that dependency and now here we are, able to remain as a fully fledged member state on our own terms and not worried about that 'dependency' anymore.

That divergence from the UK sphere of influence will continue and probably accelerate naturally now. Nation states evolve, some for the better and others for worse.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120446730#Comment_120446730

If anything we are probably becoming more aligned with the U.K. sphere of influence in the last two decades, rather than less.

The entire Brexit process in Ireland has been characterised by a complete unwillingness to face up to it and our government doing a series of bilateral agreements that basically prioritise extending benefits to British citizens rather than to our fellow EU citizens.

It’s hard to imagine any of our current politicians being willing to do something as dramatic as breaking the link to Sterling, joining and staying in the ERM and adopting the Euro without the U.K.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120449930#Comment_120449930

Our politicians don't need to do anything to strengthen links to the rest of the EU, as we didn't feck off and leave it. Trade is already pissing away from GB towards the EU since their flounce.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120449956#Comment_120449956

They didn’t need to do anything but that’s precisely what they have done.

They have gone out of their way to keep us closely aligned with the U.K. whereas they could have just let things “wither on the vine” as a consequence of Brexit.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120449971#Comment_120449971

They've done some stuff to try and make the damage the UK caused lesser. That's it. You are assigning far more weight and emotion to it than actually exists.

The relationship is dead on the vine - but we should protect our domestic economy from the potential rot.

Kiteview

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120449977#Comment_120449977

That’s not true.

They have entered into a series of bilateral arrangements since the Brexit referendum that grant U.K. citizens greater rights here than are granted to our fellow EU citizens.

And it isn’t our business to lessen any damage that the U.K. causes for itself. We are supposed to playing on “Team EU” not passing the ball to “Team U.K.” out of some misguided nostalgia.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120450020#Comment_120450020

We've re-stated the rights they had here before we joined the EU; and ensured that the same are retained for the half a million Irish, non UK citizens living in GB

Nothing there at all is new.

The lessening of damage is to us, not them. They made their bed, and then set fire to it - we just need to make sure we aren't ignited too. But you seem to completely misinterpret what is being done for whatever reason.