General British politics discussion thread

ancapailldorcha

Didn't think the Times would let a creature like Liddle near it. Another one for my list of erstwhile respectable UK publications.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120484078#Comment_120484078

It's all guff from the usual suspects. Around 35m people in the US identify on their census as "Irish-American". No amount of wailing from right wing English nationalism is going to change this fact. They seem genuinely put out that they are effectively a Billy No Mates.

I was watching a documentary about the Bidens on CNN a couple of years ago. His sister says growing up his family were known as "that Irish Catholic family" by any neighbours who weren't Irish-American. This is an actual reality of his lived existence, not something imaginary.

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120484230#Comment_120484230

I'm surprised he's even allowed to work in journalism. After all

Strazdas

Very noticeable how isolated the DUP are. It's obvious that even Sunak and the Tories are sick of them now. They literally have no allies at all, apart from a few cranks in the ERG.

Leroy42

Only until it suits Tories to get closer.

At the end of the day, the Tories will always stand with the DUP as fundamentally they both agree on the union and both agree that could conservatism is the best way to provide government.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120497420#Comment_120497420

I think they've outlived their usefulness though. Noticeable to see the NI SoS openly criticised them yesterday (much to their fury).

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120497420#Comment_120497420

The Tories don't give a sht about the Union.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120497420#Comment_120497420

The Tories regead the union as, at best, a second-order item, and they have comprehensively abandoned conservatism as a political philosophy.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120497788#Comment_120497788

They love the union as long as it remains in it's pyramid scheme format with them and their posh English school chums on top.

The union to most is some vague concept like Empire that they don't really think about until a bit wants to leave. I remember shops with these tacky "We love you Scotland" "better together" signs during the 5 minutes of their lives Londoners remembered Scotland existed.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498164#Comment_120498164

if they loved the union even that much, they wouldn't have endorsed hard Brexit, which was always going to undermine the union, and a child of four could see that.

I think the true position is that they may have some vague sentimental attachment to the idea of the union, but that is not strong enough to affect their real-world policy choices. Thus they will cheerfully adopt policies that undermine the union if they like the policies for other reasons.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498258#Comment_120498258

If you consider the attitude to the Falkland islands.

When the Argentinians started to claim South Georgia, and then the Falklands, MT was adamant that war was required to maintain the Falklands as British. Even though the stretched assets of the Royal Navy were unlikely to be able to defend them, she was prepared to commit most of the assets available to her to retake the island if the Argentinians invaded. Now only for the Exocet missiles not quite working correctly - hitting the target ship above the water line, the RN did in fact retake the islands, at great cost - not only at the time, but ongoing requirement to defend the islands. A large proportion of the naval assets were destroyed or rendered useless. Forty years later, the RN would be unable to defend the islands against a competent attack from Argentina, given their only aircraft carrier is ploughing the South China Sea with a complement of US Marine aircraft and pilots.

All the Falklands represent for Britain then and now is an outpost in the South Atlantic that might have value if the Antarctic is ever open for exploitation - which is very unlikely given the global attention against fossil fuels. It is also a poor place for raising sheep, and fish caught there cannot be exported to previous markets because of Brexit.

Most residents, then and now, are on the UK Gov payroll.

Does that sound like Northern Ireland in any way?

Peregrinus

It sounds like NI in a number of ways, but not like NI in others. In particular (a) the entire population wishes to remain under UK control, and (b) Argentina attempted to take the islands by force. Those two factors make the case of the Falklands radically different from anything we might be looking at in NI.

The UK's public position has for many years been that it has no strategic interest in NI, and since the GFA has been that the future of NI is a matter for the people of NI, in relation to which the UK will be "rigorously impartial".

But, of course, we're not talking about the UK; we're talking about the Tories. The UK may be neutral about the union; the Tories (the "Conservative and Unionist Party") doesn't have to be.

All I'm saying is that the the Conservative and Unionist Party did in fact assign a high priority to the union, it wouldn't have embraced hard Brexit. They did embrace hard Brexit, so the union is at best a minor consideration for them. Not only will they not resist NI leaving the union if it chooses to — they can hardly resist that — but they attach no significance to the possiblity that it might; they will cheerfully embrace policies which make it more likely that NI will make that exact choice.

(Same goes for the Tory attitude to the union with Scotland, obviously.)

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498164#Comment_120498164

I think the union is just an easy shibboleth for them to use as a cheap political tool and nothing more. The average Brit couldn't care less about NI. Scotland is something of a different story but with Sturgeon gone, the SNP are essentially dead as a political force.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498470#Comment_120498470

I think you are gonna get a bit of a shock in the next election if you think the SNP are dead without Sturgeon.

I expected Labour to make gains but the SNP will still easily be the 3rd biggest party in parliament.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498548#Comment_120498548

We'll see.

3rd biggest party in Parliament means nothing unless you're in a coalition.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498563#Comment_120498563

"We'll see"

By your new goalposts every party not in power is "dead"

If someone questioned the Labour numbers in the polls you would demand "proof"

So any proof the SNP are "dead without Sturgeon"

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498654#Comment_120498654

No new goalposts. I said they're "essentially dead" but nice of you to ignore the qualifier. Their raison d'etre is no closer to becoming a reality and the scandal threatening to engulf them is doing so precipitously close to the next election.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498666#Comment_120498666

So nothing then.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498675#Comment_120498675

Just refuting your misrepresentation of my post. There's no point continuing with this.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498686#Comment_120498686

Of course just shut it down when things not going your way.

Like the time you made up a complete lie about me calling you a racist which also was "not worth continuing with" when you realized you were caught out with no proof.

The facts are the SNP are looking to lose 12/15 seats in the polls and facts trump your personal bias.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498470#Comment_120498470

Just back to remembering the Falklands.

At the time of the lead up to the Falklands issue, the average UK voter had no idea where the Falklands were, most thinking they were the Faeroe Islands, which they thought were British (they are actually Danish). An earlier cartoon published in the Guardian had the 'natives' as brown people with Afro hairstyles and bones platted into the hair - obviously taking the inspiration from Punch cartoons of the Victorian era.. The British people were totally ignorant of all matters Falklands.

Now, much the same exists wrt NI.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498777#Comment_120498777

I don't disagree. I think the union's been saved moreso by Sturgeon's departure than any other factor but that's merely transient. The SNP will decline IMO but will remain entrenched in Holyrood for some time year.

Northern Ireland isn't regarded as being as alien as the Falklands but that's not much of an improvement. Plenty have no idea why it's in the UK.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498805#Comment_120498805

Maybe NI is not as alien geographically, but it is from a cultural point of view.

I think that few in Britain (England) would have any idea in common with any faction of those living in NI.

Strazdas

It would have to be factored in that nobody in Britain likes the DUP - even Tory voters and Brexiteers have come to strongly dislike them. Virtually the only sightings of them on British TV these days are with their fellow cranks on GB News. That surely leaves them in a perilous position.

Kalyke

I think Sunak, Braverman and Raab are in deep Throuple. Sorry, I mean trouble. Fecking spell check. (Or something)

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120499207#Comment_120499207

This is true. Add the fact that the DUP are the only NI representatives with any visibility at Westminster (because FPTP means representation is focused on just two parties and the other one doesn't attend) British people's feelings about the DUP easily transmute into feelings about NI — they imagine the DUP to be representative of NI.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120502117#Comment_120502117

The DUP entering government was terrible for Northern Ireland. Up until that most English people didn't seem to know Northern Ireland or the DUP existed.

Now they know that their own country has a backwater basket case provence run by ultra religious homophobes.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120502448#Comment_120502448

Now they know that their own country has a backwater basket case province run by ultra religious homophobes.

I think the point is that it is not being run by the DUP - it is not being run by anybody, but the Civil Servants who have little or no political decision making in law or in fact.

The whole place is a basket case that needs sorting, but none of those that could sort it are minded to so do. Sunak if frightened of pushing for the DUP to get back into Stormont.

Clearly the UK Gov are not bothered.

dublinman1990

Breaking News

Dominic Rabb has resigned as Deputy PM this morning over bullying report.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-politics-64467038

He formally handed out a letter of resignation to Sunak before 10 am.

Nody

Well that report really really have to have slammed him hard...