General British politics discussion thread

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221443#Comment_122221443

I never said anything about his character or articulation: and you've made my point for me. What I'm trying to say was that he's a middle-of-the-road career politician whose utter lack of charisma and magnetism would have meant, in any other cycle, he'd probably have lost an election; but being pitched against such a singularly divisive and unlikeable sitting government as this set of Tories has meant his sobriety and lack of … I dunno, X Factor has meant just presenting like an adult is an improvement. Ergo, Joe Biden.

The comparison with Biden is neither compliment nor criticism, but pure observation about his relative strengths as a political leader. Starmer's aggressively "fine", and yes the fact that on the other side of the bench are a bunch of howling ghouls who'd gut the country for wealth just makes him seem better than he is.

Like I look at Starmer and I look at Rayner and if I didn't know either way I'd have said the latter was the leader of the Labour purely by dint of her more distinct presence. If Starmer gets the UK back on its feet and arrests its horrible decline into functional destitution, then who cares how he presents - but such are modern politics.

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221477#Comment_122221477

You compared him to Biden. That's just lazy IMO.

Biden is someone is an absolute liability everytime he speaks and some would say culpable in the murder of innocent women,kids(i'm not going there)

The British people are looking for stability. Starmer will give them that after years of chaos.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221483#Comment_122221483

Now you're just being antagonistic for no good reason, projecting your judgement of Biden's subsequent administration. Stop that and quit the emotive stuff for a second: Biden was seen as a sober pair of hands after 4 years of chaos of Trump; you can debate his own admin but in 2020 the Democrats could have put forward an inanimate carbon rod and it still "probably" would have won against Trump.

As it is here: a sitting government of pure chaos, incompetence and blatant hostility towards its own electorate - sounds familiar, especially when looping in the resting alt-right ideologies - with the other side presenting a tepid alternative sitting in the centre, yet lacking in any innate sense of magnetism.

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221500#Comment_122221500

Not trying to be antogonistic in anyway, i disagree with your comparison. I'll leave it at that

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221504#Comment_122221504

Well if you're bringing up dead women and children and calling my comparison "lazy", then you ain't arguing from a point of good faith TBH, but yeah. Best to leave it if you're gonna get emotive.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221477#Comment_122221477

I don't think he lacks charisma and magnetism - you don't become a very successful barrister without them. I think the problem is that he is pretty terrible at trading in soundbites which is basically all that debate was geared up for.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221815#Comment_122221815

For sure, though for me that's more indicative of where UK Politics has drifted towards; emblematic by the aforementioned love of the Tories to drop their various soundbites and slogans.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221993#Comment_122221993

On the flip side, it's delightful to see this approach hit its limitations. We've had government by soundbites, performative cruelty and hysterics for years now and it's done nothing to solve real problems like inequality, the cost of living, housing scarcity or climate change (not that the UK cannot unilaterally solve that one).

We saw it yesterday. Sunak wasn't as bad as I expected but he clearly couldn't care less about problems that mainly affect people he holds in contempt. A decade or so ago, this might have held water but now that people are feeling it in their pockets, the jig is up.

I get Biden vibes from Starmer as well though Sir Keir is 20 years younger. If he can steady the ship and govern capably, history will be kind to him given what he will inherit.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122221815#Comment_122221815

Ya kept trying to answer back with detailed explanations. Most people will not watch this debate but will hear the clips and soundbites which he isn't good at.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222034#Comment_122222034

The best-case scenario we can hope from a Starmer government, in regards to the political culture of the UK, is a drift back towards sobriety of purpose and populist sloganeering dies a death. The EU elections has folk right worried the alt-right will gain another bump so god knows if we have yet more years to endure empty populism

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222176#Comment_122222176

I think that that's extremely likely. I'm reading Tim Shipman's chronicle of the 2018-2019 Brexit negotiations and I think that that's when the concept of Westminster being a soap opera became normalised. We need to get back to sensible, boring politics and urgently.

ArmaniJeanss

Starmer's prep for the format was poor. As if he (and/or his people) thought his undoubted barrister skill-set was directly transferable to this setting. But that skill-set is predicated on having 10 uninterrupted minutes to question a witness or 30 minutes to make a forensic opening/closing argument. Even in the HoC he gets to speak/make points relatively uninterrupted during the likes of PMQs.

Presumably he'll do more prep for the cut and thrust of this format next time, and be aware of the need to make any devastating points quickly and not have a slow-build up which ends with him in getting cut off. Probably doesn't matter much to the ultimate result of this election.

blackwhite

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222176#Comment_122222176

It's a country where the most popular light entertainment shows have often been catchphrase and stereo-type driven rubbish (see the success of Mrs Brown with UK audiences as evidence).

Cynical politicians eventually realised that it the easiest way to connect with a large swathe of the electorate was to condense their messaging into slogans and soundbites - actual policy be damned - and it worked.

There's a reaction now because the Tories have been so bad, but in 5 or 10 years I wouldn't be surprised to see the British electorate lurch towards populism again

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122220374#Comment_122220374

yeah, I listened to it in real time yesterday.

Caller: "Sadiq Khan want's Sharia Law!"

O'Brien: "Here's the reuters link about a social media post making the rounds about Sadiq Khan wanting Sharia law. It's false."

Caller: "mumblely frotz"

The call started out with the guy saying something like, "Immigrants don't have our British values," and O'Brien asked him what those were, and went downhill from there. Never did get him the caller to spell out British Values.

Enzokk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222215#Comment_122222215

It was messy by all accounts. Getting 45 seconds to answer what is quite complex issues was not going to be easy. Add in both speaking over each other and throwing barbs for that viral moment, you cold not really learn much.

But the £2000 tax hike seemed to be the hit Sunak needed as that resonated with people. If you are already struggling, how can they take another £2000 off you? If Starmer confronted him on this being a lie he amplifies it and he loses as he gives it heft as a talking point on the night and you will not be able to refute that in 45 seconds.

It could be by sheer luck but not really engaging with it seems to be the correct thing to do. Now Sunak and all those who came out with the same lie has been shown to be liars and Labour does not have to engage into why it is a lie, they have someone else who said it is a lie and it should not be said. So focus on SunaK being a liar and the the Tories lying as well. This way you do not engage in the topic, you just call the other side out for lying about it.

Dumb luck or planned? Who cares but this could hurt them more than the brief boost they got from it last night.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122222215#Comment_122222215

It is also, it should be noted, a completely worthless skill for a Prime Minister to have in actually governing. I hate how debates in general across the world have devolved into this.

A Dub in Glasgo

The disgraceful treatment of Faiza Shaheen by Kier Starmer has led her to resign from the Labour Party and stand as an independent. Hopefully she will be elected

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224593#Comment_122224593

FPTP suggests not

VinLieger

Latest yougov poll has reform within 2 points of the Tories.... This is getting seriously into replacement territory for them if reform get some key endorsements. It will still require a big heave to break the FPtP issues though.

https://news.sky.com/story/reform-uk-pulls-to-within-two-points-of-tories-in-latest-yougov-poll-13148396

A Dub in Glasgo

I watched the Lib Dem broadcast and it is incredibly moving, Ed Davey deserves credit for opening up the lid on the millions of people caring

https://twitter.com/EdwardJDavey/status/1798414489190334975

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224715#Comment_122224715

He comes across exceptionally well and is doing quite a good job I think of balancing the seriousness of his core message with basically seeming to actually enjoy himself which I think people can relate to.

Alas, it's not really the think most people want from politics these days I imagine.

HalloweenJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122223905#Comment_122223905

There's a very good book called Chums, which excellently highlights the Eton-Oxford-columnist-MP pipeline which produced so many of the current high-ranking Tories. It all begins with debating in Eton and how emphasis is on winning the debate through style instead of substance. They then move on to the Union at Oxford where its more of the same, in addition to preparing verbal essays on the fly, and then onto writing opinion pieces for newspapers.

There is a lot of success for those who can wing it with flowery language, regardless of facts, while those who thoroughly prepare for substance are derided.

I've always been surprised by how Jerry Springeresque the HoC can be but, sadly, this kind of thing is easier to sell than nuanced policy solutions. This is true for every country but the playing to the crowd aspect of British politics makes it worse.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224694#Comment_122224694

What would be hilarious would be for Reform to make that breakthrough but Farage still doesn't get elected…

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224715#Comment_122224715

He seems a very nice man. I notice many people familiar with caring for relatives saying he is the first senior politician they've heard speaking up so strongly about the issue of family carers in the home.

REDBULL68

Had 2 relatives over from England the weekend, ask about the election, they just said they don't care and no really else does ,as its just the same bullshit with a different name ,I've experienced that somewhere before, but where ???,??

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122224694#Comment_122224694

The psephologists reckon that Reform has to get into the mid-20s before they start getting non-trivial numbers of seats, and they're a long way off that. They need to be in the high 20s before they start getting more seats that the Tories. Aint gonna happen.

What I think Reform is hoping will happen is that they succeed in denying the Tories enough seats (going to Labour or the Lib Dems, not to Reform) to cause the Tory party to panic and implode. They might then replace it as the dominant party on the right. Or, they might merge with it and effectively take it over that way.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225067#Comment_122225067

I was just over there for the last few days and would totally disagree.

Both our anecdotal stories are pointless really. A couple of people is not much of a sample size.

Tom Mann Centuria

Just the 1.4 million spent on a pointless exercise. Always looked like a witch hunt.

https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1798608181570187749?t=1p3sLiWH7049B7J5r5MfXA&s=19

This bit at the end of the article is Starmer's Labour to a tee:

"A Labour MP and former shadow cabinet member criticised the selection of Alex Barros-Curtis, the head of Labour's legal unit, as a Labour candidate in the general election. He will stand in Cardiff West after being chosen directly by the NEC.

“This is a huge embarrassment for the party. This official, who was appointed to a top job at Labour HQ by Starmer, has wasted eye-watering sums which could have made the difference in key seats in this election," the MP said.

"But the Labour leadership has now rewarded him with a safe seat with which he has no connection. This is yet another case of faction first, before the interests of either the party or the country.”

But no matter how much he's spent of the party's money, I still think he's a better choice than Luke Akehurst...... Struggling to think of a worse choice than him though.

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225067#Comment_122225067

That's not really accurate though is it.

Enzokk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225095#Comment_122225095

I think the merge theory is probably what they are hoping for, Farage has not hidden the fact that he would be open to returning to the Tories or being their leader. The question then is, will the one-nation faction stay with the party or split off to form their own new party? At the moment the right of the party is being the loudest but I don't know if they have the numbers, but the centre of the party needs to start speaking up if it doesn't want it to be eaten by fear.