General British politics discussion thread

breezy1985

This national service thing is just a grumpy old man down the pub solution.

I can't believe it's actually being pushed as a policy. Sunak really is vacant.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286242#Comment_122286242

The last national service call up was for the Suez crisis around 1957, so the target demographic for this policy would be people in the 70+ bracket who might have a favorable memory of doing ones duty for the empire.

The Tory brain trust may be following that demographic to the grave.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286242#Comment_122286242

Yes, it seems a plan aimed at pleasing ageing Conservative cranks and bores rather than doing anything for the actual young people involved.

This version of the Tories is easily the worst in the last 200 years, by some considerable distance. Arguably, the old version of the party died in June 2016.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286265#Comment_122286265

I was thinking about this earlier and to have fought in WW2 you need to now be over the 100 mark. But I always got this weird feeling from England's current pensioners that they have convinced themselves that they fought Hitler.

magicbastarder

good god, i thought the tories had quietly shelved the national service idea. dig upwards, etc.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286280#Comment_122286280

They absolutely believe that, theres a brilliant question time clip from way back in 2018 of a 50/60 year old gammon who epitomises this attitude.

https://twitter.com/QTGammon/status/1063924834692935681

WE got through that…..

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286283#Comment_122286283

Nope. Now he is talking about taking drivers licences off of "deserters".

While he is concentrating of this nonsense Ed Davey is going round Tory country selling better care packages to the elderly and rallying tactical voters.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286280#Comment_122286280

I met an auld lad in England who had been in that last call up to Suez and he called it "imperial duty". He also ran several times in his local council elections for Ukip. He was actually very convivial, but very wedded to the notion of empire. He said letting India go was a huge mistake.

He did try to stir me up by asking what we had thought of Brexit in Ireland to which I replied it would be hypocritical as an Irish man to not support a nation leaving a union it wasn't happy in. I could see the marbles in his skull ricochet for a good few moments as he pondered my reply, but then bored of thinking about that he moved on again to espousing the sunny uplands of brexit benefits and being liberated from ze germans again.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286308#Comment_122286308

is "gammon" not a bit racist? pink pigs come to mind, is it an age thing? is Sunak a gammon?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286347#Comment_122286347

No.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286361#Comment_122286361

no what? it sounds racist hence my question , can Sunak be a "Gammon"

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286308#Comment_122286308

Yes, always using the word "we" when referring to WW2. Do they use the word "we" when referring to Suez and the invasion of Iraq though?

wazzzledazzle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286319#Comment_122286319

Them lot are all dying off,

Watching that absolute nonsense in Royal Ascot of the procession down the track with "Royalty".

FFS, For many great things England has, and they have many, they really need to move with the times.

The world has moved on, they still think as themselves as some kind of global powerhouse.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286242#Comment_122286242

Thing is, a joined-up "national service" concept isn't the worst idea in the world: we're looking at various trades and vocations struggling to meet demand and if somehow some kind of national service enticed young people to work or apprentice in those fields, maybe we can kill a bunch of birds with one stone. It doesn't have to mean army; imagine our shortfall of nurses and police met by curious adolescents committing once they come of age.

IF it's a serious plan that is, and downplays military service - which is a huge ask given the UK's institutionalised sense of itself still being a military power and "serving" the ultimate duty. As many here have already pointed out, the concept has been hijacked by drooling armchair generals lusting after giving Ze Germans a right goin' over.

But yeah, funny how those noisiest and most angry on the subject are those most distant from ever worrying about being called up. Reminds me of certain paper tigers around here talking big, circuitous to the Ukraine war, how they'd pick up a rifle in the morning if Ireland were invaded (lo and behold they were 50+ and outside any potential conscription age)

Water John

Maybe, as the song says, old people should be sent to the frontline. Certainly, would stop most wars.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286423#Comment_122286423

given that its over 50's the Ukrainians are press ganging to the front to meet machine guns, that idea should be killed. Even in Germany I remember people chortling that it was only dorks that werent smart enough to avoid their NS that ended up doing it.

Either way it ends up being a cheap (but expensive) source of labour and a very inefficient way to train people. There are better carrots/sticks out there

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286423#Comment_122286423

Depends on how it's done and for what purpose. At the heart of the debate is the question of what your country is for. Right now, UK PLC seems to exist for the enrichment of the top 1% while the government actively erodes the social contract. That's not the sort of thing that's going to inspire younger folks to risk their one and only life while the rich get exemptions.

My problem with trades and vocation struggling to fill vacancies is that they're expecting to be able to recruit the cream of the crop with minimal effort. Any job ad now calls for years of experience, even for stuff like waiting. The fact is that a lot of jobs can be done with on the spot training and learning by experience. Obviously, there will always be professions where this is not an option but I get sceptical when I see courses like graphical design and data analytics on places like Udemy that take a few months but then you've universities charging tens of thousands of pounds for four year courses.

Thankfully, we haven't gone as far as the Americans when it comes to the toxic cult of military service. It seems to be the only way to young lads from places like Jaywick to get skills without the crippling debt.

Even as a sop to what one might call the old man in the pub demographic, it fails utterly. That person is either going to vote for Labour or Reform UK at this point. People here might have a lot to learn about politics and history but few are stupid enough to grant a fifth chance to a party that's been this awful for a decade and a half.

Speaking about Reform UK:

Nigel Farage has praised the misogynist influencer Andrew Tate for being an “important voice” for the “emasculated” and giving boys “perhaps a bit of confidence at school” in online interviews that appear to be aimed at young men over the past year.

The Reform UK leader spoke in favour of Tate for defending “male culture” in a Strike It Big podcast that aired in February, while acknowledging that the influencer had gone “over the top” and elsewhere that he had said some “pretty horrible” things.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/jun/20/nigel-farage-andrew-tate-important-voice-men-podcast-interview

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286542#Comment_122286542

The yanks military recruitment has been down for years, Obviously young people think there are better things to be doing and better pay elsewhere. The Brits probably dont pay very well either, arent their numbers down too?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286423#Comment_122286423

I think it, generally speaking, is actually the worst idea in the world. Trades and vocations that are struggling with staffing are not going to be remotely able to deal with a bunch of untrained adolescents turning up for a weekend a month and provide them with any useful training or guidance whatsoever.

ancapailldorcha

I've a relative here who runs her husband's firm. She voted for Brexit but they exclusively hire Romanians. I asked about it and I was told not to worry since they're trustworthy. If they can't recruit, they need to up their offer. If I were a soldier, I wouldn't relish the thought of serving alongside some reluctant teen who was forced to be there.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286678#Comment_122286678

So, better to force them into service? Take away their driving licenses and mess with their credit, too? Those are all part of the proposal. It's been widely ridiculed, the current defense minister said it would be a bad idea.

"The pledge was launched just two days after the defence minister Andrew Murrison said that the government had no plans for national service in “any form” because it would do more harm than good.

In an answer to a written parliamentary question, Murrison said placing “potentially unwilling” recruits with professional soldiers “could damage morale, recruitment and retention and would consume professional military and naval resources”.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/article/2024/may/26/rishi-sunaks-national-service-pledge-is-bonkers-says-ex-military-chief

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286542#Comment_122286542

Can't say I'm surprised Farage is extolling the virtues of Andrew Tate: clearly he and his ilk are trying to glom onto every conceivable (white) demographic feeling vaguely aggrieved. I've said it before but as Toxic and patently despicable Tate is and his views are, there's a real emotional gap widening between how society is saying boys shouldn't behave - and how they should. I keep reading all this treatises and condemnations of negative masculine behaviour, and almost zero suggestions or engagements on how they should behave. Little in the way of what might be positive masculine attitudes. So of course resentment is the eventual outcome, and Tate gets more followers 'cos emotionally immature and vulnerable boys take to his easy answers and antagonistic ideas. That's a thread for another forum mind you.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286688#Comment_122286688

I mean I'm picking up examples off the top of my head; mostly with an eye towards a concept that's not so focused on military service as the primary target or destination. But we live in an increasingly ageing society, combined with a shrinking workforce thanks to automation and now, AI; I'm just not sure where we are supposed to put potential generations worth of young people growing into adulthood & an environment that can't offer any "standard" white collar industries to work in. Again though, bigger topic than the thread.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286724#Comment_122286724

Plus it would give cause to a civilian resistance militia.

Igotadose

But at least the media aren't reminding the public about Sunak abandoning D-Day.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286753#Comment_122286753

I don't disagree but I don't think Farage gives a toss for young men. It's just another arrow for his quiver of cynicism. Tate filled a niche that shouldn't exist but since nature abhors a vacuum, he met with some success before his downfall.

Apparently, Sunak is threatening that younger people could lose their bank accounts and driving licences if they snub national service. If the former is empty then the latter is worthless. He really doesn't get it.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286724#Comment_122286724

be funny if they introduced it, I cant think of a less civic yooth than the brits, NS wont happen, they should pay market rates for their military, I assume a warehouse or "white van" pays more for an easier paycheck and less shouting lol

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286794#Comment_122286794

What does this even mean? Why should young people care about a country that takes so much from them to give it to wealthier older people? It's the opposite of what Robin Hood allegedly did.

Leroy42

The nonsense from Sunak saying that those not volunteering would potentially lose their driving licence and bank account.

Is this the same Sunak that said it was terrible that Farrage was denied banking service from a single bank? There were howls of complaint about that, how unfair it all was. And now Sunak is threatening to debank people for not doing what they are told?

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286790#Comment_122286790

Oh no right-wing populist actually cares about any of the demos they appeal to, I think we can all see what Farage is doing. And unfortunately I don't think Tate rotting in a Romanian clink is gonna stop the cultural problem; as you say, nature abhors a vacuum.

As to Sunak? There has to be some strategy going on here, so best I can rationalise here is that they're looking at the constituencies they're still within a shout of winning, and those areas are predominantly ageing & white; so then if they just antagonise the youth - avocado toast, layabouts, chuck 'em in the army etc. etc. - they can maybe keep those votes otherwise sliding towards Reform.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122286824#Comment_122286824

Farage wasn't denied banking. He was denied luxury banking because he fell below the wealth threshold at a bank that counts the royal family among its clients. He was offered a basic account but he had a toxic tantrum instead.

Everything the right says is disposable.