General British politics discussion thread

Leroy42

Aegir wrote: »

And of course, your opinion is not formed by media bias and a lack of critical thinking, just everyone else’s

Law and order - reduced policing numbers, cut funding for courts, not to mention standing fully behind Cummings when he broke the law.

Institutions of the state - Johnson placed a border down part of the country and Scotland is edging closer to independence. They continue with the privitasation of the NHS and he lied to the Queen, lies to Parliament.

Government of the country? Billions wasted on Brexit, massive death toll from Covid, increase need for food banks.

All of this is public knowledge but the public don't seem to care.

So your view that the public put these things in front of corruption doesn't stand up to scrutiny as if so they would be voted out.

It must be something else. They either don't care about any of it don't understand, or something else

Leroy42

Nutkins wrote: »

Perhaps it might be something as mundane as the electorate, on balance, think Johnson and his government are doing a good job ?
Certainly a better job than they think Labour could do.
Simply saying that voters are thick and don't care isn't enough.
They do care.But the things they care about are not the same as what the media and other politicians think they care about.
I'll give you one small example.
Last night Sky News led its main I0pm bulletin with a lengthy report on how BAFTA had ignored allegations around the actor Noel Clarke to give him an award.
I can 100% guarantee not a single person in Hartlepool or much of the rest of the country cared about it.
The UK national media fundamentally fail to understand not only their audience but how much it has changed even in the last 5 years.
Johnson does.

What do they care about? Its not the economy, the NHS, Covid, international diplomacy, local services, tax, infrastructure. What is it that gets them aligned with Johnson and the Tories?

Peregrinus

Nutkins wrote: »

British politics has a tradition of MPs resigning or bring forced out over financial and personal impropriety.
Indeed the very latest is what caused the Hartlepool by-election today after the sitting MP stepped down because he's facing an Employment Tribunal, not even criminal charges.
There are also five separate inquiries going on over the allegations concerning Johnson.
Five.
My point is that unless there is real corruption found - that Johnson took taxpayers money for personal gain - the voters appear to think it's not a serious matter compared to the work of governing.
It's the British equivalent of the Gallic shrug when issues over the personal lives of French politicians emerge.
Wallpaper and curtains from John Lewis will not be on that many UK voters' minds today.

"Taking taxpayers money for personal gain" is not corruption; it's theft.

Corruption would be accepting money or gifts for personal benefit from people who have an interest in how you discharge your public functions.

The problem here is not the curtains or the wallpaper; it's the bungs Johnson solicits and accepts from private individuals to fund them, thereby putting himself under an obligation to those people. That's corrupt — glaringly obviously so. It would get me fired from the job I'm in. And if it's "not on many UK voters' minds today", then you are confirming what I said - they don't care about corruption any more, it seems, than they care about lying.

Which, yeah, is a problem for the UK, if it persists.

Professor Moriarty

Nutkins wrote: »

If the donations were to fund doing-up his own house you'd have a point.
But they're not.
They're for refurbishment of the rather pokey flat at No 11 where he is obliged to live on advice from his security advisers.
And he's got a new partner whose mad keen on the top of the range stuff which he can't afford.
Voters get this.They can relate to it.
Labour and the media don't.
It just doesn't come up on the doorstep.

Oh right. That explains everything.

Leroy42

Nutkins wrote: »

Actually you've listed many things which the electorate quite clearly think they can trust Johnson on.
But the two biggies are Brexit and Vaccinations.
And for all his shambolic private life and bumbling public persona they seem to quite like the man personally too if the reaction during his visit go Hartlepool this week is anything to go by.
Imperfections are not necessarily an automatic vote loser.

Think they can, be very clearly can't. That is why I surmise it it either they don't care or don't understand.

You agree that they don't care enough as other things law and order etc, take precedent. But I've shown how that doesn't add up as Johnson is not delivering on those.

So it must be they simply don't care or don't care enough to look beyond the TV personality.

Leroy42

Nutkins wrote: »

Not everything.
But it helps explain why Sofagate hasn't cut through to the electorate.
Starmer's petty photo-op looking at wallpaper in John Lewis was as ill-advised as the grandstanding photo of him taking the knee in his office.
Both will come back to haunt him.

But why would that bother people when they are only focused on institutions etc.

You can't have it both ways. Either they are above the petty things or they aren't.

Seems Johnson is allowed away with lying to the queen and Parliament but Starmer will pay the price for a poor photo shoot!

ambro25

Nutkins wrote: »

If the donations were to fund doing-up his own house you'd have a point.
But they're not.
They're for refurbishment of the rather pokey flat at No 11 where he is obliged to live on advice from his security advisers.
And he's got a new partner whose mad keen on the top of the range stuff which he can't afford.
Voters get this.They can relate to it.
Labour and the media don't.
It just doesn't come up on the doorstep.

And these donations are being donated by HNW private individuals out of the goodness of their heart, because...

... they can't stand the thought of Johnson and <current> Mrs living in this 'hovel' that Mr Cameron and Ms May left behind them?

The empirical evidence is that British voters, in their vast majority, are either singularly unable to connect dots, or apathetic before the perceived immutability of the FPTP voting system. Take your pick: same difference.

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

Law and order - reduced policing numbers, cut funding for courts, not to mention standing fully behind Cummings when he broke the law.

Institutions of the state - Johnson placed a border down part of the country and Scotland is edging closer to independence. They continue with the privitasation of the NHS and he lied to the Queen, lies to Parliament.

Government of the country? Billions wasted on Brexit, massive death toll from Covid, increase need for food banks.

All of this is public knowledge but the public don't seem to care.

So your view that the public put these things in front of corruption doesn't stand up to scrutiny as if so they would be voted out.

It must be something else. They either don't care about any of it don't understand, or something else

that is nothing more than a rant about a government you don't like, based on tabloidesque journalism.

I doubt very much if there is any government in the world where someone couldn't have a similar rant.

Leroy42

Aegir wrote: »

that is nothing more than a rant about a government you don't like, based on tabloidesque journalism.

I doubt very much if there is any government in the world where someone couldn't have a similar rant.

Is any of it incorrect? I am responding to a poster that is saying that people don't care about alleged corruption because Johnson is doing such a great job.

They clearly are not doing a great job, the evidence is in front of everyone's eyes. That it could be applied to many other governments is of no relevance, is that your guide for everything? If other people are doing it then it is fine?

ambro25

Nutkins wrote: »

I agree.
Telling people they're thick or don't care is not a great way to secure their support.
Labour has yet to realise this.
As you'll see tomorrow.
All those leading Tory MPs who did the same when they tried to overturn the Brexit referendum result have already learned their lesson - every single one turfed out at the ballot box.

There's a difference between understanding that (edit: very many-) people are thick or don't care, and telling them that for securing their support.

About the size of the Grand Canyon, I'd say.

Hopefully you will have noted that, whilst I have opined about the first concept, I have not posited or argued for the second concept: after 5 years of IRL & online debate about Brexit with 'the other side', I am all too aware that playing chess with pigeons is a waste of debating time.

Labour ceased to be a relevant political force when it elected Corbyn as leader. Starmer has a better teflon coat in relation to MSM harassment, but since he is merely pursuing Corbyn's approach of letting the Tories own everything since 2010, then 11 years on, he and the rest of Labour, ideological cliques irrespective, get everything they deserve; likewise the British electorate get the governance they (continue) to deserve.

I'm wholly unconcerned about 'tomorrow', whichever way the die falls, btw

Leroy42

Nutkins wrote: »

I agree.
Telling people they're thick or don't care is not a great way to secure their support.
Labour has yet to realise this.
As you'll see tomorrow.
All those leading Tory MPs who did the same when they tried to overturn the Brexit referendum result have already learned their lesson - every single one turfed out at the ballot box courtesy of FPTP ...

Except those Anti Brexit MPs have been shown to be correct. It is a far worse position they are in then before and Johnson went back on his word that No PM could ever accept a border with NI.

You said they don't care, it was in your initial post, so don't claim it is others. You made the point that voters don't care about refurbishments etc because Johnson is doing the job.

I pointed out that he isn't, which haven't been able to deny, and instead got on your high horse about calling people thick (which I certainly never did).

You then went on to claim that it is Labour doing poor PR stunts that is actually the root cause, in complete opposition to your assertion that in fac the voters look beyond the trivial to see what really matters.

There is no doubt Johnson is very popular, the question is why? It isn't because of the job he is doing, which by almost any measure is poor. It isn't because of his ideas, or his leadership, or his bringing the country together.

It would appear, and I can't find any other reason, that people are simply taken in by his TV style persona, much like they were with Farage. Soundbites carry far more weight than actual ideas.

Clearly, Labour is doing terrible in that fight, they are so poor at the PR side. But don't try to make it out as anything other than the voter being taken in by PR Spin.

Joe_ Public

Dont forget when it comes to elections, including hartlepool, tory candidates will be able to point to cash injections that are being funneled into either tory held constiuencies or ones they hope to target. Do voters care if this constitutes very transparent cynicism and pork barrel politics? Probably not I'd imagine, once they're the ones gaining.

Meanwhile, people who through absolutely no fault of their own are facing huge bills to fix the cladding on their flats are largely being left high and dry. But let's be honest, how many tory voters live in these cosmopolitan high rises anyway?

PommieBast

Nutkins wrote: »

All those leading Tory MPs who did the same when they tried to overturn the Brexit referendum result have already learned their lesson - every single one turfed out at the ballot box courtesy of FPTP ...

Lot of them were actually deselected.

Joe_ Public

Nutkins wrote: »

So you think it's wrong that the Tories target poorer Northern Labour constituencies they hope to win with extra funding ?
Surely that's the whole point of politics - levelling up the worse off to gain their support.
Labour are doing the exact reverse - big in London and university towns and ignoring their traditional heartland.

I would think that poorer constituencies, labour or otherwise, should be the main beneficiaries of so called "levelling up" or other funds. So far so good. So please explain how 40 of the 45 beneficiaries of the Towns Fund just happened to be in tory held seats. How did Robert Jenrick, great pal to the rich and powerful, how did his constituency come into £25m despite being 270th on the most deprived list. Some places towards the top of the list were overlooked completely.

Of course, this is the regime that wiped out Transport for Londons subsistence grant and then tried to pin it on Sadiq Khan for running it into the ground. They seem capable of anything.

listermint

Nutkins wrote: »

If the donations were to fund doing-up his own house you'd have a point.
But they're not.
They're for refurbishment of the rather pokey flat at No 11 where he is obliged to live on advice from his security advisers.
And he's got a new partner whose mad keen on the top of the range stuff which he can't afford.
Voters get this.They can relate to it.
Labour and the media don't.
It just doesn't come up on the doorstep.

If someone is willing to embellish the truth about the small things then doing it about the large things is easy . On this point you said Number 11 is rather pokey .

It's a 4 bedroom apartment in a Georgian house. Pokey it is not. That's a fabrication and it's endemic of the mistruths put out by red tops and consumed by the average UK resident.

All about perception you see

Leroy42

Nutkins wrote: »

It must be the world's greatest spin operation.
First it won a Brexit referendum with the largest political mandate in British political history, then a landslide general election, then survived the pandemic and now it's continuing to drain support from the opposition and looks set to take the Hartlepool constituency for the first time ever.

It is very effective there is no doubt about that.

I'm surprised that you brought Brexit into it, that is a perfect case of voters not understanding what they were voting for and certainly the MP's had a very different view of what they wanted.

listermint

listermint wrote: »

If someone is willing to embellish the truth about the small things then doing it about the large things is easy

And the only embellishment comes from the Tories?

listermint

Nutkins wrote: »

It must be the world's greatest spin operation.
First it won a Brexit referendum with the largest political mandate in British political history, then a landslide general election, then survived the pandemic and now it's continuing to drain support from the opposition and looks set to take the Hartlepool constituency for the first time ever.

Bingo, that's complete nail on the head. It is the world's greatest spin operation. No doubt various research will be done on it for years to come.

I find it unusual how you don't seen to understand the power a an entire media infrastructure in the hands of a tiny number of people can have. Coupled with decades of misinformation fluff dressed up as fact in leading papers. You could do an entire study on it frankly. The UK is an absolute treasure trove of misinformation in action for decades. It's known internationally as having an unhealthy media long before Brexit was even uttered .

On to the next victim as they say in the red tops .

listermint

Aegir wrote: »

And the only embellishment comes from the Tories?

Once again. You are putting words in my mouth. And also seem to believe I'm some form of labour supporter or apologist.

The UK political sphere is cracked open. And the Tories right now are really poisonous to the countries health. The labour party is in dissarry and there appears to be no road ahead that resolves that.

If I was the average Brit running any small business i would feel completely isolated , Robbed and under re-presented.


Franky it would make me strongly consider emigration.

listermint

listermint wrote: »

Once again. You are putting words in my mouth. And also seem to believe I'm some form of labour supporter or apologist.

The UK political sphere is cracked open. And the Tories right now are really poisonous to the countries health. The labour party is in dissarry and there appears to be no road ahead that resolves that.

If I was the average Brit running any small business i would feel completely isolated , Robbed and under re-presented.


Franky it would make me strongly consider emigration.

and you are basing this on what, something you have read in the media?

its yin and yang with the British press and the trick is to make up your own mind. Just because its in the Mail doesn't mean it isn't true, similarly because it is in the Guardian, it doesn't mean it is right.

The choice at the moment seems to be a party with some serious allegations over its relationships with backers, but with the intention of getting **** done or a party that seems to be faffing about trying to decide if it wants 1970s socialism, or 1990s Blairism or maybe a bit of both albeit somewhere in the EU, but not in the EU.

Nutkins

Nutkins wrote: »

This is precisely the point.
Each time the voters are told they don't understand what they're voting for they come back in even bigger numbers to vote for it.

Let's set the British government some objective targets, or perhaps consider their own?

Which do you think is more important?

1. A Government that delivers on its promises
2. A Government that wins re-election

They are certainly correlated, but I think it's important to really think about the question and engage.

Nutkins

Nutkins wrote: »

The country is opening up rapidly thanks to vaccines and this summer should see the return of tourists and holidays abroad for Brits.

the country is opening up because of two factors, the successful vaccines programme and a very proactive test and trace system

The vaccine programme success is due in no small part to Kate Bingham and the way she managed the suppliers. Her appointment of course, was ridiculed and declared chumocracy by the left, but lo and behold, it worked.

The test and trace programme means that kids are getting tested twice per week at school so any outbreaks can be nipped in the bud and events like the concerts in Liverpool can go ahead and new variants are quickly identified and closed down, thanks to the ongoing surge testing, like that currently taking place in parts of London. Again, this was smeared with allegations of corruption and chumocracy, but lo and behold, it is working.

CelticRambler

Nutkins wrote: »

90% of business is totally unaffacted by Brexit except for the fact they won't have to operate under suffocating EU rules any more ...

Is that right? :rolleyes: Bearing in mind that the UK government transposed just about every last line and paragraph of the EU book of rules into UK law prior to the 31st December 2020, can you give us a list of the "suffocating EU rules" that have been rescinded, or for which a definite date has been fixed in the Westminster calendar to overturn/remove them?

ancapailldorcha

Mod: A user has been temporarily banned pending confirmation that they're not a rereg. Please do not respond to Nutkins' posts in the interim.

Itssoeasy

Although there’s only one House of Commons seat up today in Hartlepool you’d assume it and others local seats will give the public some indication of how the political landscape in the UK stands in early may, 2021 after a year and half that hopefully won’t be seen again. The vote in Scotland will be very very interesting.

Leroy42

Yeah, while the focus would appear to be on Hartlepool, the real story could, and should be, Scotland. If the SNP gets a majority JOhnsons government are in a very backwards position.

SNP ran very clearly on the basis that they want another Ref. For the UK government to deny them their democratically stated wish is a very dangerous path to go down. For a country that bleated consistently about the EU being unelected and not listening to the voters to turn around and ignore the clear wishes are millions of its citizens is almost untenable (I say almost).

But what choice do they have? They will use the current pandemic as a means to kick the candown the road, claiming that the country needs to to move on. But since the vaccine has been the massive success it has, that will not last for too long, as the Scots will question why everything that be reopened except for voting booths for a ref?

But to do another ref, the last one was relatively close and so much has changed, it would be a massive risk. Personally, I can't see the Scots voting for it, the break way is simply too big an undertaking. But denying a democratic wish is not a good look and tends to lead to further resentment.

listermint

Aegir wrote: »

and you are basing this on what, something you have read in the media?

its yin and yang with the British press and the trick is to make up your own mind. Just because its in the Mail doesn't mean it isn't true, similarly because it is in the Guardian, it doesn't mean it is right.

The choice at the moment seems to be a party with some serious allegations over its relationships with backers, but with the intention of getting **** done or a party that seems to be faffing about trying to decide if it wants 1970s socialism, or 1990s Blairism or maybe a bit of both albeit somewhere in the EU, but not in the EU.

I'm not no. I actually like to read everything and form my own opinion. That includes blogs and opinion pieces news articles television and Twitter. Actual business owners laying down the hoops they now face.

This is probably the third time you've made conclusions about me. So now I seen to be a labour supporter who reads the mail.


All this because I'm able to see how utterly incompetent and destructive the current tory party is. A view might I had that is shared amongst the majority of the Tory historic leadership about the current crop.


Don't you think it's kind off odd that you seem the believe both me and then are all wrong.....

Strazdas

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yeah, while the focus would appear to be on Hartlepool, the real story could, and should be, Scotland. If the SNP gets a majority JOhnsons government are in a very backwards position.

SNP ran very clearly on the basis that they want another Ref. For the UK government to deny them their democratically stated wish is a very dangerous path to go down. For a country that bleated consistently about the EU being unelected and not listening to the voters to turn around and ignore the clear wishes are millions of its citizens is almost untenable (I say almost).

But what choice do they have? They will use the current pandemic as a means to kick the candown the road, claiming that the country needs to to move on. But since the vaccine has been the massive success it has, that will not last for too long, as the Scots will question why everything that be reopened except for voting booths for a ref?

But to do another ref, the last one was relatively close and so much has changed, it would be a massive risk. Personally, I can't see the Scots voting for it, the break way is simply too big an undertaking. But denying a democratic wish is not a good look and tends to lead to further resentment.

It's by far the bigger story. A by election is just a by election. The Scottish election may well be the start of the process of Scotland leaving the UK (similar to where Ireland was in 1918).

I disagree though that they would vote against independence. Nearly every political commentator in Scotland says that Brexit has hardened attitudes and that Scotland and England have drifted apart in the last five years (thanks in no small part to the actions of English nationalists south of the border).

cnocbui

We are 10 minutes into Brexit and already were back to 70's style fisheries wars. :rolleyes:

Boris Johnson sends two Royal Navy vessels to patrol Jersey amid Brexit fishing row with France

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/britain/boris-johnson-sends-two-royal-navy-vessels-to-patrol-jersey-amid-brexit-fishing-row-with-france-40392866.html

Emmanuel Macron sends French gunboat to Jersey as tensions rise in fishing protest

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/uk-send-navy-vessels-jersey-211310826.html

breezy1985

cnocbui wrote: »

We are 10 minutes into Brexit and already were back to 70's style fisheries wars. :rolleyes:

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/britain/boris-johnson-sends-two-royal-navy-vessels-to-patrol-jersey-amid-brexit-fishing-row-with-france-40392866.html


https://uk.news.yahoo.com/uk-send-navy-vessels-jersey-211310826.html

Any sign of the LE Deirdre on its way down to back up Macron ?