General British politics discussion thread

Nody

cnocbui wrote: »

We are 10 minutes into Brexit and already were back to 70's style fisheries wars. :rolleyes:

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/britain/boris-johnson-sends-two-royal-navy-vessels-to-patrol-jersey-amid-brexit-fishing-row-with-france-40392866.html


https://uk.news.yahoo.com/uk-send-navy-vessels-jersey-211310826.html

The french sent police boats and they have left as well as they were there to monitor the situation.

They were greeted by Royal Navy gunships HMS Severn and HMS Tamar, deployed last night by Boris Johnson...

...French authorities dispatched two police coastal patrol boats to the English Channel island as a precautionary measure.

However; to no surprise for anyone here the government was of course directly going to WW2 references.

“a government source said, ‘even the German occupation left the lights on’.”

Strazdas

cnocbui wrote: »

We are 10 minutes into Brexit and already were back to 70's style fisheries wars. :rolleyes:

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/britain/boris-johnson-sends-two-royal-navy-vessels-to-patrol-jersey-amid-brexit-fishing-row-with-france-40392866.html


https://uk.news.yahoo.com/uk-send-navy-vessels-jersey-211310826.html

I think the idea of Brexit was always to make an 'enemy' of the EU. The thinking behind it was that the EU was generally a bad thing (why else would you want to leave it?) and its aim was to screw the UK over.

So there is almost some consistency going on. The Tories and their voters want a bad relationship with Europe and don't particularly want to be friendly with them. A bit of an ugly divorce really - they don't like Europe or the EU.

Itssoeasy

And the polls have closed. Well nice that the UK had the elections on a Thursday(unless they always do, in which case it’s not anything special) as the news can get the weekend out of it depending on what way things go.

If the SNP gets an overall majority in Scotland then we may be closer than we were last time to having an arrangement similar to pre 1707.

breezy1985

Itssoeasy wrote: »

And the polls have closed. Well nice that the UK had the elections on a Thursday(unless they always do, in which case it’s not anything special) as the news can get the weekend out of it depending on what way things go.

If the SNP gets an overall majority in Scotland then we may be closer than we were last time to having an arrangement similar to pre 1707.

Is there any special TV coverage tonight ?

I completely forgot the London mayors vote is part of this and the list of candidates has a fair few nutters like Piers Corbyn and Fox also Lord Binface and a Green candidate named Berry but best of all a UKIP one named Gammons

Itssoeasy

breezy1985 wrote: »

Is there any special TV coverage tonight ?

I completely forgot the London mayors vote is part of this and the list of candidates has a fair few nutters like Piers Corbyn and Fox also Lord Binface and a Green candidate named Berry but best of all a UKIP one named Gammons

Sky news or the BBC ? They normally cover the elections. Oh yeah there’s the mayor of London and the other mayors tonight as well.

breezy1985

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Sky news or the BBC ? They normally cover the elections. Oh yeah there’s the mayor of London and the other mayors tonight as well.

Found it. Sky start at midnight and BBC at 9am.


To add to the list of funny names the Womens Equality candidate is called Mandu

ArmaniJeanss

There are very few results expected tonight, so its not going to be great watching. Most of the mayorals, and Scotland/Wales, aren't counting until tomorrow.

PommieBast

Hartlepool Con Gain. Not surprised but the margin... :eek:

The White Wolf

Conservatives have taken Hartlepool from the Labour Party for the first time since the seat's inception.

Honestly even though Boris makes me grimace this is what Keir Starmer deserves; never have I seen a more hollow and cynical attempt to regain voters with empty buzzwords and box ticking declarations. Labour UK need to review their direction urgently lest they want to end up like their Irish counterparts.

Roanmore

The White Wolf wrote: »

Conservatives have taken Hartlepool from the Labour Party for the first time since the seat's inception.

Honestly even though Boris makes me grimace this is what Keir Starmer deserves; never have I seen a more hollow and cynical attempt to regain voters with empty buzzwords and box ticking declarations. Labour UK need to review their direction urgently lest they want to end up like their Irish counterparts.

That's a bit disingenuous, Labour would have lost this seat under Corbyn but the Brexit Party split the vote the last time.
This loss was expected, I think the worry for Starmer is if councils like Sunderland got to the Tories.

PommieBast

Who is Sam Lee? Did very well for an independent so guessing it is some local issue candidate..

VinLieger

Hartlepool turnout was only 42%....

Leonard Hofstadter

VinLieger wrote: »

Hartlepool turnout was only 42%....

That's pretty high for a by-election over there

Peregrinus

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

That's pretty high for a by-election over there

Not really. There were three bye-elections in GB in the 2017-19 Parliament. Turnout figures:

Newport West (4 April 2019): 37.1%
Peterborough (6 June 2019): 48.4%
Brecon & Radnorshire (1 August 2019): 59.7%.

So turnouts vary quite a lot, but 42% is towards the lower end of the range.

Joe_ Public

Hartlepool is generally towards the lower end of voter turnout for elections in general so 42% is probably around expected. The last by election in 2004 had a 45% turnout so it's a bit down on that but not by a huge amount.

Richard Hillman

It's amazing that Labour supporters still don't get it. Obviously Starmer isn't the solution but it was those Corbyn style politics that has made working and welfare class people turn away from Labour.


They are completely oblivious that things like Nationalism is important to a lot of people. They are open to tradional left wing politics but not modern trendy left wing politics.

The Left-Right theory is an outdated concept. Its not applicable anymore. Its Nationalism versus Internationalism. Its conservatism/revivalism versus so called Progressive politics.

rock22

PommieBast wrote: »

Who is Sam Lee? Did very well for an independent so guessing it is some local issue candidate..

Apparently she is a local journalist/business woman who is standing on the issue of making Hartlepool a Freeport.

Joe_ Public

Richard Hillman wrote: »

It's amazing that Labour supporters still don't get it. Obviously Starmer isn't the solution but it was those Corbyn style politics that has made working and welfare class people turn away from Labour.

So the fact Labour's vote in Hartlepool dropped nearly 50% between 1992 and 2015 was due to "corbyn style politics"?

breezy1985

Richard Hillman wrote: »

It's amazing that Labour supporters still don't get it. Obviously Starmer isn't the solution but it was those Corbyn style politics that has made working and welfare class people turn away from Labour.


They are completely oblivious that things like Nationalism is important to a lot of people. They are open to tradional left wing politics but not modern trendy left wing politics.

The Left-Right theory is an outdated concept. Its not applicable anymore. Its Nationalism versus Internationalism. Its conservatism/revivalism versus so called Progressive politics.

But what do they do. If they turn nationalist then we have no alternative and its just Tory vs Tory. It would win back red wall votes maybe but would lose plenty others including myself. Jingo nationalism and its borderline and open racism needs to be challenged even if it is not the popular thing to do

Peregrinus

Richard Hillman wrote: »

It's amazing that Labour supporters still don't get it. Obviously Starmer isn't the solution but it was those Corbyn style politics that has made working and welfare class people turn away from Labour.

In the 2017 election, when the party was led by Corbyn, Labour won 52.5% in Hartlepool (up from 35.6% at the preceding election, in Milliband's time) . In the 2019 election, again under Corbyn, they won 37.7% - down, but still higher than they were getting before Corbyn. Now, under Corby, it's 28.7%.

In other words, under Corbyn Labour consistently got higher votes in Hartlepool than they got under either the leader before him or the leader after him.

I'm not a fan of Corbyn, for various reasons, but this "Corbyn-style politics" turns away working and welfare class people" trope is very lazy, and not really driven by the facts.

donaghs

breezy1985 wrote: »

But what do they do. If they turn nationalist then we have no alternative and its just Tory vs Tory. It would win back red wall votes maybe but would lose plenty others including myself. Jingo nationalism and its borderline and open racism needs to be challenged even if it is not the popular thing to do

Some of the ideas people may think of as "right-wing" "nationalism", are old fashioned left-wing working class politics. e.g. managing (not stopping) immigration levels (particularly unskilled labour) to prevent wages being depressed etc.

partyguinness

Well, it has dawned on me listening to the by election results etc on the news this morning. The political map in Eng & Wales is going along the lines of the US.

Working class areas of high deprivation, high unemployment, former industrial towns i.e. traditional Labour voting, are now turning Conservative (well, it started with Brexit and then the 2019 GE). Labour votes will be confined to the urban "elite".

Similar to the US, the poorest most deprived States are Republican voting even though it has been repeatedly shown over many decades that the policies enacted by Republicans hurt these States the most. As long as these "low information" voters have their guns and little federal intervention wrapped up in "freedom" then they are happy.

In the UK, swap guns and freedom for Brexit: "We may be dumb and poor with no life prospects but at least we have cast off the evil foreign EU oppressors."

These black holes that depended most on the EU and will hurt the most from Brexit are areas that voted for Brexit in droves. Of course, there is also an element of “Well, we have always voted Labour and we our life is still **** so we have eff all to lose at this stage”

There was a fisherman from Cornwall on the BBC last weekend expressing his disgust that having voted Tory for the first time ever he expected Brexit to deliver a bounty for fishermen. He feels left down by the Tories. I'm just thinking "You dumb MF".

Like the GOP in the US, you have a Tory party headed by an elite cabal of Eton educated millionaires that could not care less about the likes of Hartlepool or Sunderland now hoovering up votes from poor working-class areas. The problem is that the working class in England are very easily impressed by a sharp suit, plummy accent and a double barrel surname. They like the class ridden system- knowing their place at the bottom of the pecking order gives them a sense of belonging.

breezy1985

partyguinness wrote: »

Well, it has dawned on me listening to the by election results etc on the news this morning. The political map in Eng & Wales is going along the lines of the US.

Working class areas of high deprivation, high unemployment, former industrial towns i.e. traditional Labour voting, are now turning Conservative (well, it started with Brexit and then the 2019 GE). Labour votes will be confined to the urban "elite".

Similar to the US, the poorest most deprived States are Republican voting even though it has been repeatedly shown over many decades that the policies enacted by Republicans hurt these States the most. As long as these "low information" voters have their guns and little federal intervention wrapped up in "freedom" then they are happy.

In the UK, swap guns and freedom for Brexit: "We may be dumb and poor with no life prospects but at least we have cast off the evil foreign EU oppressors."

These black holes that depended most on the EU and will hurt the most from Brexit are areas that voted for Brexit in droves. Of course, there is also an element of “Well, we have always voted Labour and we our life is still **** so we have eff all to lose at this stage”

There was a fisherman from Cornwall on the BBC last weekend expressing his disgust that having voted Tory for the first time ever he expected Brexit to deliver a bounty for fishermen. He feels left down by the Tories. I'm just thinking "You dumb MF".

Like the GOP in the US, you have a Tory party headed by an elite cabal of Eton educated millionaires that could not care less about the likes of Hartlepool or Sunderland now hoovering up votes from poor working-class areas. The problem is that the working class in England are very easily impressed by a sharp suit, plummy accent and a double barrel surname. They like the class ridden system- knowing their place at the bottom of the pecking order gives them a sense of belonging.

Vote Tory if you "love Britain" vote Labour if you "hate Britain" and thats how it is over there now with certain demographics

PommieBast

Peregrinus wrote: »

Not really. There were three bye-elections in GB in the 2017-19 Parliament.

Going back further 42% is actually a high average. It is only with something high-profile like Clacton or Eastleigh that turnout exceeds 45%.

donaghs wrote: »

Some of the ideas people may think of as "right-wing" "nationalism", are old fashioned left-wing working class politics. e.g. managing (not stopping) immigration levels (particularly unskilled labour) to prevent wages being depressed etc.

Lot of the working class have in the past been very socially conservative in general. Maybe it dates back from the days when workers (esp. miners) had to watch each others' backs and there was no room for lingering suspicions.

The White Wolf

Roanmore wrote: »

That's a bit disingenuous, Labour would have lost this seat under Corbyn but the Brexit Party split the vote the last time.
This loss was expected, I think the worry for Starmer is if councils like Sunderland got to the Tories.

What's disingenuous about it? He's made every attempt to assassinate every thing to do with Corbyn and he still got destroyed here contesting a seat they have kept since 1974. Not just lost, destroyed.

I don't see how it's disingenuous to see this as a complete rejection of what Starmer is trying to do.

partyguinness

PommieBast wrote: »

Lot of the working class have in the past been very socially conservative in general. Maybe it dates back from the days when workers (esp. miners) had to watch each others' backs and there was no room for lingering suspicions.

I have been living and working here for over 10 years. The one thing that has struck me about the "natives" i.e. white English working class is that they are surprising lazy. Well, I suppose it is not that suprising really.

I have had this discusison with like minded observers (English) here. From where I am sitting the people or groups keeping the country going are the emigrants. Be it South Asian doctors or pharmacists, restuarants or Eastern European workers inthe warehoures or fields or the Carribean or African cleaners and care staff. The "natives" are having rings run around them with the efect that they are being left behind to bitch and moan about their lot with everyone else to blame. Then this is manifested in areas like Sunderland, Hartlepool etc which are predomiinantly white working class areas- they are left standing around ranting and raving at everyone else about their plight.

It is to a large degree laziness and a lack of drive.

Sam Russell

partyguinness wrote: »

I have been living and working here for over 10 years. The one thing that has struck me about the "natives" i.e. white English working class is that they are surprising lazy. Well, I suppose it is not that suprising really.

I have had this discusison with like minded observers (English) here. From where I am sitting the people or groups keeping the country going are the emigrants. Be it South Asian doctors or pharmacists, restuarants or Eastern European workers inthe warehoures or fields or the Carribean or African cleaners and care staff. The "natives" are having rings run around them with the efect that they are being left behind to bitch and moan about their lot with everyone else to blame. Then this is manifested in areas like Sunderland, Hartlepool etc which are predomiinantly white working class areas- they are left standing around ranting and raving at everyone else about their plight.

It is to a large degree laziness and a lack of drive.

There is also the poor level of education of this demographic.

breezy1985

partyguinness wrote: »

I have been living and working here for over 10 years. The one thing that has struck me about the "natives" i.e. white English working class is that they are surprising lazy. Well, I suppose it is not that suprising really.

I have had this discusison with like minded observers (English) here. From where I am sitting the people or groups keeping the country going are the emigrants. Be it South Asian doctors or pharmacists, restuarants or Eastern European workers inthe warehoures or fields or the Carribean or African cleaners and care staff. The "natives" are having rings run around them with the efect that they are being left behind to bitch and moan about their lot with everyone else to blame. Then this is manifested in areas like Sunderland, Hartlepool etc which are predomiinantly white working class areas- they are left standing around ranting and raving at everyone else about their plight.

It is to a large degree laziness and a lack of drive.

There seems to be a mindset developed in the second half of the 20th century that everywhere can be prosperous all the time. A lot of people in these former industrial and mining areas sit around moaning and waiting for the jobs down the mines to return but the coal mines and factories are a small blip in human history and so are these towns. There are jobs in England but the young people are going to need to relocate within England same as the immigrants do to get the jobs. Humans are transient and always have been and I bet up until a few generations back the families of these people were too

partyguinness

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is also the poor level of education of this demographic.

Indeed there is. Mostly I find it that they just do not give a crap. There is a complete lack of curiosity. I even see it with my own in laws- who all voted Brexit. In fact, my entire workplace also voted Brexit. All white.

Some of the dumb **** they came out for voting Brexit was absolutely staggering. I guess I have spent my life surrounded by like minded people and then to be taken and planted in the middle of Little England has not been good for my mental state.

Butson

partyguinness wrote: »

Indeed there is. Mostly I find it that they just do not give a crap. There is a complete lack of curiosity. I even see it with my own in laws- who all voted Brexit. In fact, my entire workplace also voted Brexit. All white.

Some of the dumb **** they came out for voting Brexit was absolutely staggering. I guess I have spent my life surrounded by like minded people and then to be taken and planted in the middle of Little England has not been good for my mental state.

What, and the Irish are any different?