General British politics discussion thread

Joe_ Public

partyguinness wrote: »

I have been living and working here for over 10 years. The one thing that has struck me about the "natives" i.e. white English working class is that they are surprising lazy.

I know several current tory cabinet members who would agree with that, having written a book a while back calling the british [they mean the working class really] the "worst idlers in the world" and "more interested in football and pop music" than in earning an honest living.

I guess these voters either don't realise how much they are being gaslit or just don't care. Their towns have been ravaged by cuts and austerity over the life of this administration, and by thatcherite bottom line greed going back decades before that, but the tories will toss them a few bones between now and GE time and you know they'll lap them up.

volchitsa

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is also the poor level of education of this demographic.

Yeah but the level of education, in a country where everyone has access to free education up to university level, can't just be written off as being all about poverty. Most of those South Asian doctors and pharmacists came from poor countries where their parents or grandparents sacrificed themselves to get an education for their children, and the children had to work damn hard to get it too.

If whole communities aren't educated in a wealthy country like the UK, I think you have to ask whether the problem is partly in the mindset of that community.

In other words, when the parents have passed through their own educational years almost unscathed, and yet refuse to do manual work that immigrants are doing, you can't really expect the children to knuckle down and study for the GCSEs can you? Monkey see, monkey do.

Sam Russell

partyguinness wrote: »

Indeed there is. Mostly I find it that they just do not give a crap. There is a complete lack of curiosity. I even see it with my own in laws- who all voted Brexit. In fact, my entire workplace also voted Brexit. All white.

Some of the dumb **** they came out for voting Brexit was absolutely staggering. I guess I have spent my life surrounded by like minded people and then to be taken and planted in the middle of Little England has not been good for my mental state.

My view of their total lack of knowledge comes from watching too many UK quiz programmes where contestants continually demonstrate the ignorance of very basic things. I do not think contestants are selected for their ignorance (but that is a possibility) but not knowing basic geography (even UK geography) or which countries are member states of the EU, or the dates of various Monarchs were on the throne, or even the order they occupied the throne, shows a poor level of basic facts.

I continue to be appalled by the ignorance displayed.

Arthur Daley

donaghs wrote: »

Some of the ideas people may think of as "right-wing" "nationalism", are old fashioned left-wing working class politics. e.g. managing (not stopping) immigration levels (particularly unskilled labour) to prevent wages being depressed etc.

Vote after vote they keep being given this message. And year after year they keep ignoring it. Attacking the voters in some cases. The hubris of it.

ancapailldorcha

Sam Russell wrote: »

There is also the poor level of education of this demographic.

The poor level of education is incredibly easy to rectify in this day and age. The abject arrogance, bigotry and ignorance are the real problems IMO and IME.

breezy1985

Butson wrote: »

What, and the Irish are any different?

I think it is the sheer numbers thats shocking. You have cities the size of Limerick or Cork where the whole place has this attitude. Its weird there is a constant complaint about wanting better but also sticking the nose up at anything that isnt the local Spoons

Leroy42

Richard Hillman wrote: »

It's amazing that Labour supporters still don't get it. Obviously Starmer isn't the solution but it was those Corbyn style politics that has made working and welfare class people turn away from Labour.


They are completely oblivious that things like Nationalism is important to a lot of people. They are open to tradional left wing politics but not modern trendy left wing politics.

The Left-Right theory is an outdated concept. Its not applicable anymore. Its Nationalism versus Internationalism. Its conservatism/revivalism versus so called Progressive politics.

You are 100% correct that nationalism is the order of the day. The Flag is taking up more and more prominence. UK v's the EU, UK v's the US, UK vs the world.

THe problem is, and we have seen countless examples of this in other countries, that it is a very difficult idea to break. Try to disagree with it and you come across as nating the UK. "If you don't like it leave".

Johnson and his government has all but kissed the flag, a la Trump, and anyone that says anything negative or questions the UK is seen as a traitor and out to sell the UK to the EU overlords.

But what Labour do? Get more flags? Wear Union Jack suits? Tories have been in power for years and you would struggle to find anyone that thinks the UK is better now than it was when they got back into power. But nationalism trumps all that. People are prepared to put up with anything one they feel they are doing their bit.

The Tories have so successfully owed this narrative that I find it very difficult to see how Labour can do anything in the short term.

breezy1985

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Vote after vote they keep being given this message. And year after year they keep ignoring it. Attacking the voters in some cases. The hubris of it.

Parties shouldnt run on what wins but what they think is right. Should the Greens advocate an end to recycling if it wins votes, should Renua be pro abortion because it is popular and wins votes ?


What would be the point of Labour becoming Tories to beat the Tories

partyguinness

breezy1985 wrote: »

There seems to be a mindset developed in the second half of the 20th century that everywhere can be prosperous all the time. A lot of people in these former industrial and mining areas sit around moaning and waiting for the jobs down the mines to return but the coal mines and factories are a small blip in human history and so are these towns. There are jobs in England but the young people are going to need to relocate within England same as the immigrants do to get the jobs. Humans are transient and always have been and I bet up until a few generations back the families of these people were too

Like Trump promising to bring back coal jobs.

That is another peculiar difference I noted over here. In times of economic declince or a lack of opportunites, the Irish will move around and emigrate without thinking too much about it. The English wouldnt move 2 miles down the road.

I remember suggesting that when my wife was discussing a friend's daughter not benig able to find work locally. There was a job offer in Liverpool- I said "Sure why does she not take it and move to Liverpool" They looked at me like I had six heads i.e. "She is from [this town] why would she want to move to Liverpool [2 hours up the motorway]?"

It was like I had made the most stupid statement in history. I think this contributes to stagnation.

Lumen

partyguinness wrote: »

I have been living and working here for over 10 years. The one thing that has struck me about the "natives" i.e. white English working class is that they are surprising lazy. Well, I suppose it is not that suprising really.

I have had this discusison with like minded observers (English) here. From where I am sitting the people or groups keeping the country going are the emigrants. Be it South Asian doctors or pharmacists, restuarants or Eastern European workers inthe warehoures or fields or the Carribean or African cleaners and care staff. The "natives" are having rings run around them with the efect that they are being left behind to bitch and moan about their lot with everyone else to blame. Then this is manifested in areas like Sunderland, Hartlepool etc which are predomiinantly white working class areas- they are left standing around ranting and raving at everyone else about their plight.

It is to a large degree laziness and a lack of drive.

You're making a false comparison based on selection bias. Immigrants always tend to work harder, partly because they have to because they're discriminated against, and partly because they're the sort of people with enough drive to move country for opportunities.

I'd be curious in a comparison in work ethic between the average Irish-born person living in Ireland and English immigrants living in Ireland, although even that isn't quite the same comparison because English immigrants to Ireland tend not to be economic migrants, and English immigrants in Ireland aren't typically discriminated against.

For instance, I wonder what the unemployment rate is for English immigrants to Ireland? Near zero, I'd imagine. I've never come across one. But that isn't evidence that English people in general are highly motivated.

ancapailldorcha

breezy1985 wrote: »

There seems to be a mindset developed in the second half of the 20th century that everywhere can be prosperous all the time. A lot of people in these former industrial and mining areas sit around moaning and waiting for the jobs down the mines to return but the coal mines and factories are a small blip in human history and so are these towns. There are jobs in England but the young people are going to need to relocate within England same as the immigrants do to get the jobs. Humans are transient and always have been and I bet up until a few generations back the families of these people were too

Some of the problem is that many young people get educations and then relocate to wealthier places which are almost always cities concentrating them and their worldview there while places like Hartlepool suffer a brain drain on top of their long term economic abandonment.

Arthur Daley

breezy1985 wrote: »

Parties shouldnt run on what wins but what they think is right.

They think it's right. The majority don't. You have always had a place for niche views and small parties.

Progressive, 'woke', open borders, government knows best, whatever you call it, it has a minority of support. As Britain has said in election after election now.
That's fine, the monster raving loony party campaigns and stands, that what a democracy is all about.

Lumen

Lumen wrote: »

You're making a false comparison based on selection bias. Immigrants always tend to work harder, partly because they have to because they're discriminated against, and partly because they're the sort of people with enough drive to move country for opportunities.

I'd be curious in a comparison in work ethic between the average Irish-born person living in Ireland and English immigrants living in Ireland, although even that isn't quite the same comparison because English immigrants to Ireland tend not to be economic migrants, and English immigrants in Ireland aren't typically discriminated against.

For instance, I wonder what the unemployment rate is for English immigrants to Ireland? Near zero, I'd imagine. I've never come across one. But that isn't evidence that English people in general are highly motivated.

it is also very easy for an immigrant in Ireland to call out dozens of cases of ignorant lazy people who have never done a days work in their lives and have made the decision to sponge off the state, while moaning about immigrants getting everything and yes, if you don't like it, leave.

I dare say every country has these people, but i wouldn't for one minute call them indicative of the natives.

CelticRambler

Sam Russell wrote: »

not knowing basic geography ... shows a poor level of basic facts.

I continue to be appalled by the ignorance displayed.

Almost twenty years ago, this was a significant reason for my decision not to raise my children in the UK. At the time, I used to (enthusiastically) welcome secondary school work experience students into my business. One conversation going off on a random tangent (what seas and oceans surround the UK?) turned into a regular survey of each student's general knowledge, and it was, on average, appalling. Children living 20km from the coast in Kent, for example, not knowing that they were paddling in waves of the North Sea, or worse - suggesting that maybe it was the Black Sea. :rolleyes:

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The Left-Right theory is an outdated concept. Its not applicable anymore. Its Nationalism versus Internationalism. Its conservatism/revivalism versus so called Progressive politics.

To an extent, this is a change taking place across the whole of Europe. While Ireland has always been largely centrist, Ireland's "left" - in the form of the Labour party - has evaporated, to be replaced by the pseudo-left-hard-rightist natonalism of Sinn Féin. Similarly, here in France, the version of the Left united under the umbrella of the Parti Socialiste has been unable to recover meaningful support since the accidentaly re-election of Jacques Chirac. Next year, the contest will be between the centre-right Macronists, the traditional right and the Far Right.

What I think we're seeing is the "levelling up" effect of half a century of European moderate socialism. The old industrial revolution jobs are gone everywhere, but the social structures developed to protect people working in those conditions have been absorbed into our "new normal". That leaves little room for traditional Leftist campaigning. Now in the third decade of the 21st Century, the new models are American style winner-takes-all capitalism versus Asian sweat-shop communism versus European measured socialism. Britain appears to be voting for the American model, probably helped by a diet of unfiltered Republican ideology, thanks in part to the language barrier that runs down the English Channel.

Leroy42

Aegir wrote: »

it is also very easy for an immigrant in Ireland to call out dozens of cases of ignorant lazy people who have never done a days work in their lives and have made the decision to sponge off the state, while moaning about immigrants getting everything and yes, if you don't like it, leave.

I dare say every country has these people, but i wouldn't for one minute call them indicative of the natives.

That is very true, but the issue with the UK atm is that blaming everyone else is not just an opinion but the very core of the political thinking.

The EU are being unfair, they tricked up, they are punishing us etc are al statements made by members of the governoring party.

The increase use of flags, the vaccine war, that the UK totally wn and left the EU as losers. It is actually whipped up rather than individuals.

Joe_ Public

According to the latest available census figures the 65+ age group in Hartlepool increased by 1/4 between 1981 and 2011 while the u/25 age group showed a corresponding decline. That can only have risen further over the last decade. Older, comfortable home owners are deciding elections across these constituencies. You either find a way to appeal to them or you come up with new ways of convincing those who don't usually vote to get out and back you. Half hearted attempts to wave a flag and promise you'll get tough on immigrants and law and order won't wash. They just assume you're faking it.

breezy1985

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Some of the problem is that many young people get educations and then relocate to wealthier places which are almost always cities concentrating them and their worldview there while places like Hartlepool suffer a brain drain on top of their long term economic abandonment.

True. Usually the only reason I was visiting was with friends who were from these places and got out so I suppose not everyone from those places was like that but still the expectations of quality of life look set to be very low by European standards

I narrowly avoided following a woman to a life in Devon myself. Looking back there is no way I would pick any part of England outside of London over Ireland

hotmail.com

Sam Russell wrote: »

My view of their total lack of knowledge comes from watching too many UK quiz programmes where contestants continually demonstrate the ignorance of very basic things. I do not think contestants are selected for their ignorance (but that is a possibility) but not knowing basic geography (even UK geography) or which countries are member states of the EU, or the dates of various Monarchs were on the throne, or even the order they occupied the throne, shows a poor level of basic facts.

I continue to be appalled by the ignorance displayed.

Isn't this the case in every country?

The knowledge of past Irish taoisigh is awful among Irish people.

We like to sit on our high horse when it comes to what British people know or don't know when we're not much different.

Most of us spend 13 years learning our own language and we still can't speak it.

Leroy42

Joe_ Public wrote: »

According to the latest available census figures the 65+ age group in Hartlepool increased by 1/4 between 1981 and 2011 while the u/25 age group showed a corresponding decline. That can only have risen further over the last decade. Older, comfortable home owners are deciding elections across these constituencies. You either find a way to appeal to them or you come up with new ways of convincing those who don't usually vote to get out and back you. Half hearted attempts to wave a flag and promise you'll get tough on immigrants and law and order won't wash. They just assume you're faking it.

Well the obvious way to appeal to them is to show them that the previous years policies, EU etc has lead them to home ownership, a successful owkring career and now a comfortable retirement.

But that doesn't suit the narrative of nationalism, of UK being against the world, or olde empire and ruling the waves

hotmail.com

Leroy42 wrote: »

You are 100% correct that nationalism is the order of the day. The Flag is taking up more and more prominence. UK v's the EU, UK v's the US, UK vs the world.

THe problem is, and we have seen countless examples of this in other countries, that it is a very difficult idea to break. Try to disagree with it and you come across as nating the UK. "If you don't like it leave".

Johnson and his government has all but kissed the flag, a la Trump, and anyone that says anything negative or questions the UK is seen as a traitor and out to sell the UK to the EU overlords.

But what Labour do? Get more flags? Wear Union Jack suits? Tories have been in power for years and you would struggle to find anyone that thinks the UK is better now than it was when they got back into power. But nationalism trumps all that. People are prepared to put up with anything one they feel they are doing their bit.

The Tories have so successfully owed this narrative that I find it very difficult to see how Labour can do anything in the short term.

Biden is seen with the American flag on every speech he gives.

The Brits and the Yanks always loved their flag in ways we find cringey. Large countries have their flag everywhere with the exception of Germany.

Joe_ Public

Leroy42 wrote: »

Well the obvious way to appeal to them is to show them that the previous years policies, EU etc has lead them to home ownership, a successful owkring career and now a comfortable retirement.

But that doesn't suit the narrative of nationalism, of UK being against the world, or olde empire and ruling the waves

In a constituency that voted 70% for brexit? I think you'll be doing well, tbh. There arent really any easy answers is the alarming bottom line.

Leroy42

Joe_ Public wrote: »

In a constituency that voted 70% for brexit? I think you'll be doing well, tbh. There arent really any easy answers is the alarming bottom line.

That is exactly my point.

Nationalism is the only thing that matters. Everything else can be excused. Older voters should be appalled at how Johnson and his government are acting, but the clare nationalism, the us v's them, is the deciding factor.

And Labour come across as not really being 100% behind that movement. Would Starmer send Military ships to Jersey?

partyguinness

Lumen wrote: »

You're making a false comparison based on selection bias. Immigrants always tend to work harder, partly because they have to because they're discriminated against, and partly because they're the sort of people with enough drive to move country for opportunities.

Well, the only reason I make the comparison is because emigration was a huge factor in Brexit voting areas. Of course not all emigrants are warehouse workers or fruit pickers. You go to a dentist or pharmacist or a GP and guaranteed 9 times out 10 they will be Asian be it first or second generation. The NHS is utterly dependent on skilled emigrants at every level. Good luck finding a white taxi driver in the city.

For my sins, I live a a Brexit voting area and everyone I spoke to who voted Brexit cited emigration i.e. too many. But interestingly you also had towns with very little or no emigrants voting for Brexit because of emigration i.e there was almost a fear that the tide needs to be stopped so our little village does not end up over run by emigrants- reading too much of the Daily Mail.

The fact most emigrants are from non EU countries was not important.

You can put any old crap on paper over here and older generation will believe every word of it. The adage "Don't believe everything you read in the newspaper" does not apply in Brexitland- believe everything without question. That is one reason why I believe the Gov of the day are so scared of the tabloid press- they recognise that the plebs are gullible and will believe anything as long as it is written in a newspaper no matter how fanciful.

Lumen wrote: »

I'd be curious in a comparison in work ethic between the average Irish-born person living in Ireland and English immigrants living in Ireland, although even that isn't quite the same comparison because English immigrants to Ireland tend not to be economic migrants, and English immigrants in Ireland aren't typically discriminated against.

I tended to find (purely my own personal experience of course) that the English in Ireland are by and large few and far between but from my conversations when I was working in Ireland they tended to move to Ireland for a better quality of life rather than work. It was more of a lifestyle choice- buy some derelict cottage in West Cork and live off the land fantasy or claim the dole which is very generous in Ireland compared to England.

Some are hiding or running away from "issues". Plenty of Irish run to Australia or Boston for similar reasons.

Lumen wrote: »

For instance, I wonder what the unemployment rate is for English immigrants to Ireland? Near zero, I'd imagine. I've never come across one. But that isn't evidence that English people in general are highly motivated.

I grew up in a stereotypical rural village in Cork and there was a fair share of English that moved in for a few years and then moved on. Most did not work at all. Some did odd jobs here and there while claiming the dole. They did not feel to need to work and it was a lifestyle choice.

I can think of several examples where they sold up in England and basically moved to Ireland. In fact I can think of two families near my parents to this day and the parents have never had a job. Must live of inheritance or rent or something and been there for near 30 years. Children went to school locally and now moved on. They have never mixed so we really know nothing about them.

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

That is very true, but the issue with the UK atm is that blaming everyone else is not just an opinion but the very core of the political thinking.

it has been the Modus Operandi of Irish governments since the inception of the state to be honest.

We are seeing it now with the housing crisis being blamed on foreign cuckoo funds.

Arthur Daley

partyguinness wrote: »

For my sins, I live a a Brexit voting area and everyone I spoke to who voted Brexit cited emigration i.e. too many. But interestingly you also had towns with very little or no emigrants voting for Brexit because of emigration i.e there was almost a fear that the tide needs to be stopped so our little village does not end up over run by emigrants- reading too much of the Daily Mail.

And wouldn't they be right. They were never asked to take in so many migrants, and the open borders doctrine will not put a number on when this will stop. So the logical and sensible conclusion is that migration will continue unchecked. Unless and until those behind this government policy will confirm otherwise.

Put a figure on it. Spell it out. When is enough, enough? Speak to your electorate and be clear.

That is what the Tories have done. Eventually when forced into it by Farage and company

hotmail.com

Aegir wrote: »

it has been the Modus Operandi of Irish governments since the inception of the state to be honest.

We are seeing it now with the housing crisis being blamed on foreign cuckoo funds.

Irish people constantly apply different standards to Britsh and American politics and think they know everything about it.

We see above that this poster thinks older people in the UK should be appalled at Johnson over covid. Clueless about UK people and their love of the Tory Party that goes back generations.

Leroy42

Aegir wrote: »

it has been the Modus Operandi of Irish governments since the inception of the state to be honest.

We are seeing it now with the housing crisis being blamed on foreign cuckoo funds.

The difference is that it is actually a real problem and the people also blame the government for not doing something about it.

In the UK, the same would be reported as a hostile takeover, by the EU attempted to enslave the UK in rental hell, with houses being stolen from UK people to give to EU citizens.

In terms of the Irish governments blaming others, in many cases they had a point. But very much the EU is held up as something very positive, not without flaws, which is the exact opposite of the UK.

The IRish government, openly acknowledge the benefits of the EU. The UK go out of their way to ignore the benefits and even go as far as try to claim any benefits as their own.

Joe_ Public

Leroy42 wrote: »

That is exactly my point.

Nationalism is the only thing that matters. Everything else can be excused. Older voters should be appalled at how Johnson and his government are acting, but the clare nationalism, the us v's them, is the deciding factor.

And Labour come across as not really being 100% behind that movement. Would Starmer send Military ships to Jersey?

Yes, i see where you're coming from. All very valid. I think it raises the question, what is in it for them trying to match the tories in these stakes? They'll never win fighting the tories on their own turf where they've been winning elections for decades. Why bother pandering to largely white, flag loving patriots when they still probably wont vote for you anyway?

quokula

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Some of the problem is that many young people get educations and then relocate to wealthier places which are almost always cities concentrating them and their worldview there while places like Hartlepool suffer a brain drain on top of their long term economic abandonment.

Yeah this is a key part of it - it’s not that people from certain areas are uneducated, it’s that the ones who get educated go on to move to a big city. These cities then have hugely concentrated voting blocks for Labour while those who are left behind by the brain drain seem increasingly susceptible to the sort of nationalistic jingoism that the Tories and the right wing media are keen on pushing.

The lack of PR and the flawed nature of FPTP means that come election time all the focus and media attention ends up on these specific areas who decide the elections, while massively diverse cities like London made up of millions of people of all classes and all backgrounds basically get ignored as they almost uniformly vote Labour.

Again it’s not unlike the US where the Democrats have been consistently ahead in popular vote share for a couple of decades thanks to the massive concentration of voters in cities, but archaic voting systems mean their vote just doesn’t matter as much as voters turning red in low population rust belt states.

I do think countries like Ireland with decent voting systems are far more resilient to these kinds of problems.

partyguinness

Arthur Daley wrote: »

And wouldn't they be right. They were never asked to take in so many migrants, and the open borders doctrine will not put a number on when this will stop. So the logical and sensible conclusion is that migration will continue unchecked. Unless and until those behind this government policy will confirm otherwise.

Put a figure on it. Spell it out. When is enough, enough? Speak to your electorate and be clear.

But you see it will not continue unchecked. It will only continue as long as there are opportunities to move to. If there are opportunities then the question is why are these emigrants getting jobs but the locals are not?

As I mentioned above, most emigrants are from non-EU countries and from the Commonwealth. Emigration is a red herring and easy red meat to throw out.

Quite frankly, Piotr or Mr Patel will more often than not have better English literacy skills than Andy or Jacinta from Sunderland. That boils down to generations of poor education but sure it’s easy to blame the emigrants when they take the jobs because Andy can barely spell his own name and left school at 15. He can now sit around the local Wetherspoons drinking Carling, shouting at the football on TV and blaming emigrants for not having a job.

Capping emigrants is ideologically at odds with the Tories. They are free market libertarians so capping emigrants amounts to an interference with the “free market”- that ship sailed decades ago.

The UK has made it easy to come to the UK to fill up the gig economy. As a commentator noted when asked why are emigrants at Calais trying to get across rather than trying to make a go of it in France: "Well, that is because there are far more **** jobs in the UK to fill and easier to glide under the radar. Less questions about ID and visa status than in mainland Europe."

Emigrants are essential for the UK economy and the Tories know it. The problems are deep seated and go back decades. Sure blame emigrants but emigrants are not the problem.