Dublin GAA Discussion Thread: Mod Note - No 'Dublin Dominance' chat allowed!

JRant

I don't really know where the decline comes from really. A good system can make average players good while a bad system can make good players look average. I think we've the backbone of a very good team but something is very wrong.

billyhead

I think the hunger or drive amongst the senior players isn't there anymore and there going through the motions in games.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118710251#Comment_118710251

This hunger and drive thing is the biggest myth going IMO. Basically to try and cover for Dessie based on a cliche.

Look at it the other way you could say the players would have got fed up listening to the same voice- for seven years with Jim Gavin. But he kept innovating improving and driving on.

Dessie Farrell has done precisely the opposite even allowing for a ‘transition’. The fall off should be not a steep descent.

The manager is responsible for the team and finding a system that plays to their strengths and hides their weaknesses.

It is the sideline who moulds a team. This is now Dessie Farrell’s team simple as that. The main problems are tactically precisely because of Farrell. The players are not properly drilled. No support play etc.

This is the GAA the players are not bothered they walk away. Would you turn up to winter training in an amateur sport if you were not arsed? No you would walk away.

To say it is hunger and desire that is the problem ignores how the GAA works. People are involved for the love of their community, their club, their county. Management is the major issue for Dublin.

The same thing happened in the 90’s decent players - but under achieved. Mainly because of poor preparation from management. It was disorganised like it is now. Management did not get to the grip of the older players and mix them properly with the younger lads.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118711025#Comment_118711025

Hunger and drive is a given for any club player nevermind a county player. The game at the highest level is nearly more about what you do off the pitch now than on it. The level of detail, analysis and preparation that goes on just seems to go over most peoples heads.

Forgetting about Dessie for one second and it's clear all the other teams have broken whatever system it is he is trying to play. He needs to revamp what he's doing because we are just an easy team to ay against with little to no nuance to our game.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118711286#Comment_118711286

It is shocking really. I mean I am not tactical genius. But I would say two fellas should always support the fella with ball a given for any half decent team. Movement and options.

I don't understand how players suddenly forget how to do that basic thing.

And fellas should not be leaving a load of space in the back for a simple high ball to cause havoc. Is another basic as well I would have thought? I don't think it is a question of a system been broken. There seems to be none!

All I can say is I am thankful for the hurlers doing well. I'd be having a meltdown altogether otherwise.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118711440#Comment_118711440

Oh, there's a system alright but it's a very naive one. We faff around with the ball until it gets near midfield, this triggers a load of lads to bomb forward and a long aimless ball is usually lobbed in to one of the corners. When we lose it half the team are out of position and can't get back to block any attacks. Just look at the space the opposition have been given to run at us.

We dealt with long balls in before because we always put pressure on the lad passing the ball in. When there's no pressure it makes it much easier to play a good ball in and then, well, you know yourself, we can't stop leaking goals or scores.

Kevhog1988

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118710188#Comment_118710188

the condiditioning work isnt done to the same extent as it was in Jim Gavins time id say. Can see that the likes of Fenton, Kilkenny etc arent covering as much ground as they used to. Rock has been roasted in every game this year and is still starting. In Gavins time hed be on the bench.

Kildare on the other hand were absolutely dogged in the curragh after xmas and even through the Obyrne cup. There were a few lads that dropped out as the training was too hard so they are now left with a team with high fitness levels and no passengers.

amlinopta

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118718445#Comment_118718445

Bryan Cullen still in charge of strength and conditioning, as was the case under Gavin

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118718445#Comment_118718445

Dean Rock doesn't have the fitness he had when he was younger. It happens to us all😁

Gael85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118718445#Comment_118718445

Kilkenny is one of the few players playing well. Agree Dean not playing but appears to be carrying some kind of injury as didn't take the long frees on the ground Sunday. Very few options and no freetaker on bench was reason he was kept on. Dessie doesn't have same calibre of player on bench as Jim. Likes of Aaron Byrne and Ryan Basquel wouldn't be near panel 2/3 years ago come championship. We have used 48 players between league and OBC. 31 used in league. Dessie took over an aging squad and didn't get previous years due to covid to experiment with new players and Jim didn't bring too many young lads in his last couple seasons as Dublin manager so the next year or two we will be in transition. Dessie needs to look at coaching set up and a a few amendments. Kevin Mc has been added recently.

Gael85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118710188#Comment_118710188

We lost about 20 players from 6 in a row panel. Many were once in a generation players and lot of great leaders gone too. This lads drove the standards on and off the pitch. Cooper, Mick Fitz, McCarthy and Rock won't have many years left. We need new leaders. Kilkenny is only one playing and Fenton to a certain extent are playing well. Need Byrne, Small, Howard, Murchan, Scully and Con to up their game. All came into the team as young lads, now need to show their leadership.

We played the slow build even in Jim last couple years. Teams have sussed the game plan started in 2017 by just flooding the D instead of been drawing out to the ball. Need to be more direct but we need Con and Paddy Small back to implement that game.

Sultan of Bling

Will be interested to see how paddy small will do on his return.

He has divided opinion here.

I thought he had his best performance for Dublin in the first half of the mayo defeat last year.

The second half was a non event for him as Dublin decided to play keep ball for 35 minutes and not play the ball forward.

The concern I have for him is he appears very one footed whereas mannion was brilliant with both feet.

Always hard for anyone to fill mannions boots though.

JRant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719573#Comment_118719573

We played that way to combat the blanket defence and it worked. The tactics now are very confusing. We play slow ball out of defence and then try to hump long ball into the forwards after the defence has had time to get set. If we are trying to play a more direct style, which I'm not against at all, then it has to be done much quicker than we are currently trying to play. It's also fairly obvious that Dessie hasn't paid an ounce of heed to the weather during these games. Playing into a gale and pissing rain 3 weeks in a row is probably not the time to go with long direct play. It may pay dividends once the ground firms up and the weather is not so awful but it certainly wasn't the right call for these games. We also need to start playing the game a lot quicker. Everything is being done at a snails pace.

dobman88

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118719573#Comment_118719573

Who are the 20 players gone since December 2020? I have seen the few high profile "retirements" but 20 seems like an awful lot gone in a relatively short space of time.

Gael85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720252#Comment_118720252

Players retired in last 2/3 years

Stephen Cluxton

Philly McMahon

Rory O'Carroll

Darren Daly

Eric Lowndes

Cian O'Sullivan

Jack McCaffrey

Michael Darragh Macauley

Diarmuid Connolly

Paul Mannion

Paul Flynn

Paddy Andrews

Eoghan O'Gara

Bernard Brogan

Kevin McManamon

Then a few lads who were on fringes of panel not involved anymore Colm Basquel, Darren Gavin, Conor McHugh, Cian O'Connor and Andy McGowan.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720440#Comment_118720440

That 15 would hammer the current lot.

dobman88

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720440#Comment_118720440

Were they all on the 2020 panel that won number 6? Was not expecting it to be that many. Some names in there too

Gael85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720762#Comment_118720762

Cluxton, Philly, Mannion, Lowndes, Basquel, MDMA, and Kevin Mc were in 26 for 2020 final. COS, Paddy A, Gavin and O'Carroll were on extended panel. McCaffrey, Connolly, and Daly retired in 2020 during the pandemic.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720833#Comment_118720833

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/all-ireland-final-kevin-mcstay-s-guide-to-the-dublin-team-1.4001383

From 2019, there are 16 that played championship out of 35 that are gone. That doesn't include Darren Daly and Paul Flynn who have also retired since then.

From the 19 that are left, Murchan, Small, Costello, McCarthy and O'Callaghan are all either injured or haven't been seen this year.

That means that out of the 35 players who played championship for Dublin in 2019, only 14 were available last Sunday.

dobman88

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720833#Comment_118720833

Tis a lot when you see it written down in front of you.

Would anyone lay any of the blame on Jim Gavin not blooding enough players. Obviously he did the 5 but as we can see from your posts, left an aging team and there has been a raft of retirements.

Or is it simply a case of he did what he had to do to get the 5 and Dessie is trying to restart now.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118720955#Comment_118720955

I think Gavin did blood players all the time. Sure didn't he bring in

Murchan 2018 champ debut -

https://www.dublinlive.ie/sport/former-dublin-boss-paul-caffrey-14913041

, Paddy Small 2018

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0125/1025581-gavin-builds-best/

, Comerford (starting league games) 2018,

https://www.gaa.ie/news-archive/news/jim-gavin-hails-exceptional-evan-comerford/

and Bugler had his first big start v Tyrone in the dead rubber super 8 game in 2019,

https://www.bbc.com/sport/gaelic-games/49209633

--

So although there is an undoubted drop off in the level of players. For people to start saying players were not blooded is a bit of a rewriting of history in my opinion anyway. There always seemed to be 2/3 lads on the radar each year.

dobman88

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118721151#Comment_118721151

Juat to be clear. I am not rewriting history, or trying to.

I was genuinely asking as I had no clue of player turnover until the poster above laid out all the names gone.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118721892#Comment_118721892

I wasn't trying to claim you were, just on about the general narrative that seems to come from some RTE pundits etc. That the team was allowed to get old etc. And/Or Dublin don't have the same hunger etc. Lazy stuff IMO

Yeah there is a changing of the guard looking at the Looking at the 2018 AI Final panel fas an example :

GK 1 Stephen Cluxton (c) - 1 retired (without a word)

CB 2 Philly McMahon - 2 retired

FB 3 Cian O'Sullivan - 3 retired

CB 4 Eoin Murchan

WB 5 John Small

HB 6 Jonny Cooper

WB 7 Jack McCaffrey 5 retired

MF 8 Brian Fenton

MF 9 James McCarthy

WF 10 Niall Scully

HF 11 Con O'Callaghan

FW 12 Brian Howard

CF 13 Paul Mannion - 6 retired

FF 14 Ciarán Kilkenny

CF 15 Dean Rock

Substitutes:

GK 16 Evan Comerford

FW 17 Paddy Andrews - 7 retired

FW 18 Colm Basquel

FW 19 Cormac Costello

DF 20 Darren Daly -8 retired

DF 21 Michael Fitzsimons

FW 22 Paul Flynn - 9 retired

DF 23 Eric Lowndes - 10 left football panel

MF 24 Michael Darragh MacAuley - 11 retired

FW 25 Kevin McManamon - 12 retired

FW 26 Eoghan O'Gara - 13 retired

--

But that only tells a part of the story, there seems to be much more wrong than just turnover of players IMO. Management seems to be all over the shop. Drop off is way too steep than what it should be.

--

Edit nearly forgot Jack Mc - he is on a break...

And Cooper is not retired - that was a typo

I will add Bernard Brogan as the 13th retiree instead as he did his cruciate in 2018 which is why he was not on the panel for the final.

What.Now

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722496#Comment_118722496

Have I missed something? Has Jonny Cooper retired?

Gael85

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722598#Comment_118722598

Jonny was playing Sunday.

gormdubhgorm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722598#Comment_118722598

Sorry yeah big typo error. Hope cooper does not read this thread!!😫

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118722626#Comment_118722626

Bass Reeves

I think a lot to f Dublin supporters have failed to see the team get old before there eyes. Rock, Cooper, Fitzsimmons are all 32, McCarthy is 33/34 I think. Fenton and Kilkenny are 29. Even players like Murchan, Paddy Small, Howard and O'Callaghan are 25/26. You have only a core of 5-6 young players.

Recently I was listening to a soccer podcast. It was talking about Ronaldo's function in United. Because of his age there opinion he could no longer make the runs and do the work he did even 5-6 years ago. Admittedly he is older than any Dublin player, but he is a professional who has been at the top of his game. They made the point that United problem at present was that other younger players were not taking up the slack for him

IMO in Gaelic football there is a limit to older players you can carry. When you add in that players with medals in there pocket will not have the hunger of players without you can see where Dublin's problems are. Add in a change of manager even if he was an excellent motivator and you could maybe see a lack of respect for him.

As well there is a lot of lads got medals as subs that may not want to hang around. COVID hid the cracks from appearing. Now it full scale holes in the team.

Even of McCaffrey was still around he be 29 as well. Dublin problem is a complete lack of youth.

As Bomber Liston said after the Munster Final defeat to Cork in '87 to the journalist questions,

'' take down the tent lads the circus is leaving town''

mystic86

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723749#Comment_118723749

Wishful thinking on McCarthy, he just turned 32 this week. Kilkenny 28. Small and Howard 24 I think.

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118723855#Comment_118723855

But for these players to see their best friends and teammates during all that success step away it might have a psychological effect.

JRant

For any manager stepping into such a successful dressing the most important thing is to get the players to buy into your vision of where they want to bring the team. It's an extremely difficult task but it can be done.

I don't know what's going on with the team at the moment but it seems fairly obvious that this team hasn't bought into whatever Dessie is selling. Can he turn it around? Sure he can but the law of averages would be against it and unfortunately for him and his team it's only a matter of time before the inevitable happens.

I'm struggling to remember the last time we were this uncompetitive in 4 straight games. We haven't laid a glove on anyone yet or looked that arsed about it either.