Dublin GAA Discussion Thread: Mod Note - No 'Dublin Dominance' chat allowed!

gormdubhgorm

Cavan_King wrote: »

The only teams who would view the league as more important than championship are teams like Carlow & Leitrim, whose only chance of achieving a modicum of success is promotion in the League.

To be honest, you seem to be making this up as you go along. For example, Cavan need to make two Ulster finals to be seen as consistent - they already have.

You also stick Monaghan in your too seven teams yet they are on a downward curve - players aging, little coming through, the end of McManus getting nearer. I would place Armagh above them in the Ulster pecking order and with the players Down have coming through they will soon surpass them also.

As I already say I don't count this year exceptional circumstances. If Dublin win Sam I would not really count it - too many variables have skewed it.

As for only Carlow and Leitrim taking the league seriously. Our near (and dear) neighbours Meath were chuffed to qualify for division 1. after 13 years.

https://www.the42.ie/trevor-giles-meath-4598442-Apr2019/

According to the great 'sleeveless one' himself!

Also Banty said (Jan 2020)

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/dublin-and-kerry-bring-the-glamour-as-allianz-football-league-returns-1.4152200

“There is going to be very small margins in this division one. The national football league has become so important to teams."

But, it is interesting how two GAA fans could have like myself and yourself could have completely opposing views on the league. Which is why the provincial systems will remain, as long as there is sufficient amount of people happy with them.

Plus Keith Duggan (journalist) in the article above commented -

"One of the contradictions of the GAA is that while great thought and effort goes into devising ways to maintain the appeal of the All-Ireland championship, the league seems to produce potboiler storylines week after week. It always starts with a bang. Dublin-Kerry was the top billing of a series of highly attractive games which brought out big attendances on the opening weekend.

It’s a front-loaded competition in that while winning the silverware is nice, preserving divisional status has become of absolute importance to managers."

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Mickey Graham and yourself obviously don't agree which is fair enough. But I think that is only because Ulster still has a mythical status about it for a couple of counties.. Whereas the other 3 provinces don't have much of status at all for Kerry, Dublin, Galway, Mayo. It is just seen as a means to an end to see can they the bigger prize in Sam or close to it.

Plus Martin Breheny (journalist) said in 2015 only the top 6 teams in the league can win Sam.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/martin-breheny-seven-year-results-show-that-only-top-six-league-finishers-can-win-sam-30946909.html

"Only those who finish in the top six in Division 1 have a realistic chance of winning the All-Ireland title.

That's based on results since the 2008 restructuring of the League into four divisions of eight, based solely on rankings."


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If Mayo win this year they will have bucked the trend, as they were relegated this year for the first time in 23 years. But I would argue they have been in division 1 long enough and experimented. Their focus is the Sam as they won the league in 2019 to tears of joy.


Their first National Title in 18 years.


But whoever wins Sam I am not really counting it - mad year.

Slattsy

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I'm starting to warm to the idea of 10-in-a-row tbh.

You're not thinking of the children! They'll start playing snooker.

Cavan_King

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

As I already say I don't count this year exceptional circumstances. If Dublin win Sam I would not really count it - too many variables have skewed it.

As for only Carlow and Leitrim taking the league seriously. Our near (and dear) neighbours Meath were chuffed to qualify for division 1. after 13 years.

https://www.the42.ie/trevor-giles-meath-4598442-Apr2019/

According to the great 'sleeveless one' himself!

Also Banty said (Jan 2020)

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/dublin-and-kerry-bring-the-glamour-as-allianz-football-league-returns-1.4152200

“There is going to be very small margins in this division one. The national football league has become so important to teams."

But, it is interesting how two GAA fans could have like myself and yourself could have completely opposing views on the league. Which is why the provincial systems will remain, as long as there is sufficient amount of people happy with them.

Plus Keith Duggan (journalist) in the article above commented -

"One of the contradictions of the GAA is that while great thought and effort goes into devising ways to maintain the appeal of the All-Ireland championship, the league seems to produce potboiler storylines week after week. It always starts with a bang. Dublin-Kerry was the top billing of a series of highly attractive games which brought out big attendances on the opening weekend.

It’s a front-loaded competition in that while winning the silverware is nice, preserving divisional status has become of absolute importance to managers."

--
--

Mickey Graham and yourself obviously don't agree which is fair enough. But I think that is only because Ulster still has a mythical status about it for a couple of counties.. Whereas the other 3 provinces don't have much of status at all for Kerry, Dublin, Galway, Mayo. It is just seen as a means to an end to see can they the bigger prize in Sam or close to it.

Plus Martin Breheny (journalist) said in 2015 only the top 6 teams in the league can win Sam.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/martin-breheny-seven-year-results-show-that-only-top-six-league-finishers-can-win-sam-30946909.html

"Only those who finish in the top six in Division 1 have a realistic chance of winning the All-Ireland title.

That's based on results since the 2008 restructuring of the League into four divisions of eight, based solely on rankings."


--
--

If Mayo win this year they will have bucked the trend, as they were relegated this year for the first time in 23 years. But I would argue they have been in division 1 long enough and experimented. Their focus is the Sam as they won the league in 2019 to tears of joy.


Their first National Title in 18 years.


But whoever wins Sam I am not really counting it - mad year.

Your original point was “ Because I think most managers see the league as important, and some view it as more important than the championship.”

The part I took exception to was “some view it (the League) as more important than the championship”.

I don’t see anywhere in any of those articles people saying the League is more important than the championship?

They state it’s important, or whatever adjective is relevant, but nobody states it is more important than championship.

I would actually like to see a shake up of how it’s run but the fact is the championship is still the primary competition.

Also, you are assuming I agree with Mickey Graham’s view of the League. Where have I said that?

gormdubhgorm

Cavan_King wrote: »

Your original point was “ Because I think most managers see the league as important, and some view it as more important than the championship.”

I would actually like to see a shake up of how it’s run but the fact is the championship is still the primary competition.

In my opinion I believe the championship is the primary competition in name only. The league is the real competition in my view. It shows in division 1 for sure over the 2-3 years. Better games as well more competitive. The championship is just noise more than anything - in my opinion.

And only still where it is now because of 'tradition'

I would argue that that NFL division 1 is harder to win than Leinster, Connacht and Munster as well. Plus due to the number of games against quality teams it edges out Ulster in my eyes. Just my opinion as it seems mucher fairer and better teams.

So I look at it as the real barometer, while also looking at championship.
Let's face it in the championship the luck of the draw is crucial, whereas these days more often than not one of the best teams in the country win div 1.

Plus it is normally division 1 teams in the SF's of the championship anyway.
Micky Graham focuses on Ulster fair enough, but I think it is not as difficult as division 1. Maybe he knows this which is why he was not bothered?

Fair play Cavan won ulster after 23 years. The gate was left open this year and they took advantage of 'the new normal'.

You would argue justifiably that Cavan won Ulster beating two div 1 teams. It is an achievement no doubt. But, the way I look at it would only get you four points in Div 1 of the NFL. Mayo got 5 this year and were relegated.

Cavan_King

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

In my opinion I believe the championship is the primary competition in name only. The league is the real competition in my view. It shows in division 1 for sure over the 2-3 years. Better games as well more competitive. The championship is just noise more than anything - in my opinion.

And only still where it is now because of 'tradition'

I would argue that that NFL division 1 is harder to win than Leinster, Connacht and Munster as well. Plus due to the number of games against quality teams it edges out Ulster in my eyes. Just my opinion as it seems mucher fairer and better teams.

So I look at it as the real barometer, while also looking at championship.
Let's face it in the championship the luck of the draw is crucial, whereas these days more often than not one of the best teams in the country win div 1.

Plus it is normally division 1 teams in the SF's of the championship anyway.
Micky Graham focuses on Ulster fair enough, but I think it is not as difficult as division 1. Maybe he knows this which is why he was not bothered?

Fair play Cavan won ulster after 23 years. The gate was left open this year and they took advantage of 'the new normal'.

You would argue justifiably that Cavan won Ulster beating two div 1 teams. It is an achievement no doubt. But, the way I look at it would only get you four points in Div 1 of the NFL. Mayo got 5 this year and were relegated.

If the League was more important, Dublin would be winning it every year like they do the championship. Point over.

I’m going to bow out now because I really do think you are making this up as you go along.

You’re not going to back down re Cavan but at the same time you negated your own point by stating Cavan needs get close to winning Ulster again in the next 2-3 years to be seen as consistent - not even realising the egg on your face as they had reached the Ulster Final last year.

Best of luck in the Final lads. Having watched the Tipp game, Mayo are weak at the back and I think, as with the semi final last year, ye will win by ten points plus.

Rolo2010

Cavan_King wrote: »

If the League was more important, Dublin would be winning it every year like they do the championship. Point over.

I’m going to bow out now because I really do think you are making this up as you go along.

You’re not going to back down re Cavan but at the same time you negated your own point by stating Cavan needs get close to winning Ulster again in the next 2-3 years to be seen as consistent - not even realising the egg on your face as they had reached the Ulster Final last year.

Best of luck in the Final lads. Having watched the Tipp game, Mayo are weak at the back and I think, as with the semi final last year, ye will win by ten points plus.

Dublin won 3 NFL titles since 2015 and came second twice. Cavan's win in Ulster and their performance in the semi-final just shows why the provincial structure is no longer fit for purpose.

You can keep your faux best of luck wishes to yourself.

ShyMets

I see the Dominance of Dublin thread is back and theres already some beauties in there.

On the plus side at least it keeps the cranks all in one thread

Rolo2010

ShyMets wrote: »

I see the Dominance of Dublin thread is back and theres already some beauties in there.

On the plus side at least it keeps the cranks all in one thread

Don't listen to the GAA Hour. The Meath fella they have on was moaning about how the intercounty system is dead and it should be scrapped. That is news to the hurling counties.

Hammer Archer

ShyMets wrote: »

I see the Dominance of Dublin thread is back and theres already some beauties in there.

On the plus side at least it keeps the cranks all in one thread

Mod: A general warning to everyone here! Years ago, numerous Dublin posters (understandably) complained that posts about funding etc. were clogging up other threads (including this one). So the thread you've mentioned was created to keep posts in one place.
So if you want to constructively participate in that thread, then by all means do so. But don't bring it up here. Fair warning.

ShyMets

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Mod: A general warning to everyone here! Years ago, numerous Dublin posters (understandably) complained that posts about funding etc. were clogging up other threads (including this one). So the thread you've mentioned was created to keep posts in one place.
So if you want to constructively participate in that thread, then by all means do so. But don't bring it up here. Fair warning.

I agree. I should not have posted such a comment. My annoyance got the better of me.

It will not happen again

Slattsy

Hammer Archer wrote: »

Mod: A general warning to everyone here! Years ago, numerous Dublin posters (understandably) complained that posts about funding etc. were clogging up other threads (including this one). So the thread you've mentioned was created to keep posts in one place.
So if you want to constructively participate in that thread, then by all means do so. But don't bring it up here. Fair warning.

Can you put the same effort into keeping that discussion out of the Championship thread too please. Thanks.

gormdubhgorm

Cavan_King wrote: »

If the League was more important, Dublin would be winning it every year like they do the championship. Point over.

I’m going to bow out now because I really do think you are making this up as you go along.

You’re not going to back down re Cavan but at the same time you negated your own point by stating Cavan needs get close to winning Ulster again in the next 2-3 years to be seen as consistent - not even realising the egg on your face as they had reached the Ulster Final last year.

Best of luck in the Final lads. Having watched the Tipp game, Mayo are weak at the back and I think, as with the semi final last year, ye will win by ten points plus.

Again I don't count this year. Plus I view div 1 harder to win then Sam, better teams in it fewer handy games.

I believe it is more then some weaker simply using the league to experiment. Fact is Cavan are not good enough for div 1 and are now in div 3. Meath were in div 2 for 13 years, facts are there. Alright having a year off but a few? Westmeath other example.

Div 1 is like the leaving. Provicials are like the Christmas exams in first year nice to well but don't really matter. Backdoor etc and bigger teams div 1 normally end up with Sam.

When was the last time a team outside div 1 won Sam?

Slattsy

Let it go Gorm!!!

gormdubhgorm

Bernard Brogan interviewing Jack McCaffery

Very honest interview. Plus, no telly and smartphone may be the answer why he became the great player.

Stopped playing because he lost the joy of it. Plus he is not as must as a fan of watching GAA as he was.

Dyr

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Bernard Brogan interviewing Jack McCaffery

Very honest interview. Plus, no telly and smartphone may be the answer why he became the great player.

Stopped playing because he lost the joy of it. Plus he is not as must as a fan of watching GAA as he was.

I find most GAA podcasts boring, but thats a great interview

gormdubhgorm

Bambi wrote: »

I find most GAA podcasts boring, but thats a great interview

No holding back in it at all. Others would say what they think they are supposed to say. Plus Bernard had the sense just to let him talk.

seligehgit

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

No holding back in it at all. Others would say what they think they are supposed to say. Plus Bernard had the sense just to let him talk.

One of the very best player interviews I've ever had the pleasure of listening to.

Exceptional quality.

gormdubhgorm

seligehgit wrote: »

One of the very best player interviews I've ever had the pleasure of listening to.

Exceptional quality.

It was interesting that Jack says he lost the joy of it at intercounty but at the same time he did not want to declare himself as retired - just in case in might get the bug again.

You must have an awful lot going on in your life when your arguably the best football player in the country, and it's not even your priority. Some lads have it all.

It would be nice if he was at least a prick so you wouldn't feel bad about being jealous but he seems sound too.

seligehgit

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It was interesting that Jack says he lost the joy of it at intercounty but at the same time he did not want to declare himself as retired - just in case in might get the bug again.

Sounds like he's suffering from a severe case of mental burnout/fatigue vis a vis gaelic football at the highest level.

Very hard to maintain that kind of commitment and as high octane a career as a NCHD with those working hours,exams and the pandemic.

Unfortunately I've no doubt he'll rediscover his love for representing Dublin.

As you said he's left the door wide open.

The nuggets re the absence of a television,humility re his ability with a smartphone and the reading/love of fantasy books (want to write same) was fascinating.Loved the story around "time to roll the dice".

I thought it was latin but it's a language in The Wheel Of Time.

His amazing self awareness paint an incredibly rounded individual.

I've always admired him for his sunny persona even if he admitted on occasion it was a mask.

The honesty of his appraisal of the Dublin question.

I know he's Jack Flash but 5 km in 32 minutes when he's no longer involved is serious going.

Not going to let him away with any revisionism re 2012 semi final.:)

Of course the young upstart would likely have a made a huge difference if he'd entered the fray.

Neglected to mention but his interview earlier in the year was very good too.

Jack McCaffrey on Dessie Farrell, Stephen Cluxton and 'terrible' advanced mark

https://www.goloudnow.com/podcasts/otb-gaa-96/interview-jack-mccaffrey-on-dessie-farrell-stephen-cluxton-and-terrible-advanced-mark-63357?open_player=true?utm_source=whatsapp&utm_campaign=article&utm_medium=web

gormdubhgorm

Deleted User wrote: »

You must have an awful lot going on in your life when your arguably the best football player in the country, and it's not even your priority. Some lads have it all.

It would be nice if he was at least a prick so you wouldn't feel bad about being jealous but he seems sound too.

Kids Doctor on top of that.

I remember I think it was Michael Dignan saying his education suffered because of Intercounty GAA he had no time for anything else. And said the same thing happens loads of fellas.

Maybe Jack McCaffery only needs a few hours sleep or something? Bernard even commented that he knew he was working for nearly two days straight and thanked him for his time..

Someone who knows the family well, told me they are all high achievers. So it is the talk about the family background that stood out for me. No pressure they were just lead by example.

ooter

seligehgit wrote: »

I know he's Jack Flash but 5 km in 32 minutes when he's no longer involved is serious going.

It was 10k in 38 mins which is still very impressive, especially for a training run.

5k in under 25 minutes is considered a good time for an amateur. 10k in 38 minutes is super

MFPM

Listened to that podcast today, it was an interesting enough insight into what goes into inter-county football. Listening to him discussing walking away from the Dublin set-up, I'd be amazed if he returns to play for Dublin, while he didn't want to say he retired, playing for Dublin didn't seem like something he was contemplating any time soon.

Bonniedog

Just looking at the betting for football player of the year. Top three predictably enough are Kilkenny, Fenton and COC. Winner is bound to come from winning team so would imagine that if Mayo do it and COC has a stormer, then it's his.

If Dublin probably one of the two. However, just noticed that Mick Fitz is 20/1. I'd love to see him getting it. Has been one of the lesser spotted keys to Dublin's run and has been brilliant all year.

Two incidents stick in my mind as example of how he operates. Both against Meath - once when shepherding the corner forward over the line without touching him or the ball, and the other a one touch dispossession in or at edge of square with Dublin coming out with it.

In my mind the best full back Dublin have ever had and that includes Lar (who I did see when I was very young with Vinnies), Kelliher, O'Driscoll, Doherty, Walsh, Hargan, Chrstie, Moran and all the other greats.

sasta le

He's sure of himself anyway not relatable to the average gas fan

ooter

[Deleted User] wrote: »

5k in under 25 minutes is considered a good time for an amateur. 10k in 38 minutes is super

I'd say if he put a good block of training in he could go a lot quicker than that in a 10k race, but yeah it is a super time.
Some lads are sickeningly talented.

gormdubhgorm

Bonniedog wrote: »

Just looking at the betting for football player of the year. Top three predictably enough are Kilkenny, Fenton and COC. Winner is bound to come from winning team so would imagine that if Mayo do it and COC has a stormer, then it's his.

If Dublin probably one of the two. However, just noticed that Mick Fitz is 20/1. I'd love to see him getting it. Has been one of the lesser spotted keys to Dublin's run and has been brilliant all year.

Two incidents stick in my mind as example of how he operates. Both against Meath - once when shepherding the corner forward over the line without touching him or the ball, and the other a one touch dispossession in or at edge of square with Dublin coming out with it.

In my mind the best full back Dublin have ever had and that includes Lar (who I did see when I was very young with Vinnies), Kelliher, O'Driscoll, Doherty, Walsh, Hargan, Chrstie, Moran and all the other greats.

The last full back who won player of the year was that Moyinhan fella from the Kingdom back in 2000. Annoyingly, I remember how he stood out because he made it look effortless. Wasn't he converted from centre back?

Last corner back to win player of the year was another Kerry fecker Marc O'Se.

I would be amazed if a full back/corner back like Mick Fitzsimons won an all star

(I am not saying he is no use by by the way! Part of the poshest full back line in the world that won in 2011 according to Kevin Mc?).

I think you have to be a main 'presence' on a team and stand out that way, as well as the way they play.

But Dublin have so many fellas who make the game look easy and have a 'presence' the poor auld full backs are well down the queue.

For example, I felt Cluxton was only given it the last time because they realised, 'jayus we never gave Cluxton player of the year'. So they were embarrassed by it. Plenty of years he should have got it. Plus probably more deserving years than last year.

It is a funny award sometimes. I also feel the commentators who commentate on the games have a huge influence on who gets player of the year, If they always pick out a fella from a certain team and talk about him as 'crucial, exceptional player', 'heartbeat of the side' that player is more likely to get it.

McGeeney is a great example for Armagh everytime he got the ball back in 2002 the commentators would get extra excited and go on about intangibles and the like. That horse of a full back Francie Bellew was never going to get player of the year that year. Because he was not one of the heralded players.

franglan

Who are we looking as All Stars. I'd have Fitzsimons, Fenton, Kilkenny as absolute certs. Would think Rock, Cluxton, McCarthy, Con in in that order too. Obviously depends how final goes too. Any thoughts.

ShyMets

Could this be the first year in a long time that Kerry have no All Stars. You would think Dublin getting to the final guarantees at least 5 All Stars