Dublin GAA Discussion Thread: Mod Note - No 'Dublin Dominance' chat allowed!

rolling boh

If today 's match is anything to go by teams better practice at taking penalties because there will be plenty awarded in the coming months .Will have to shape up on the rules because almost any contact seem to result in a stoppage.

How Soon Is Now

rolling boh wrote: »

If today 's match is anything to go by teams better practice at taking penalties because there will be plenty awarded in the coming months .Will have to shape up on the rules because almost any contact seem to result in a stoppage.

Between that and the mark there will be some very handy costly scores given and i hope its not against Dublin!

BonnieSituation

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Between that and the mark there will be some very handy costly scores given and i hope its not against Dublin!

This tinkering around the edges shoite without consideration of possible consequences is really boiling my blood. In an effort to "make the game more exciting" they've made it worse.

rolling boh

Think the new rules are ruining the game the match today would i feel make very poor viewing for a casual enough viewer will be no surprise crowds will drift away other than a few event games and only the real diehards will stick the whole season .

How Soon Is Now

The mark creates so many handy scores in situations where in the past a forward could have overrun it or made the wrong choice or lost the ball because of pressure.

The players know this so it's only gonna be worse if this new rule involving penos becomes a constant thing now because the outcome is a lot bigger in the grand scheme of a match.

When was the last time you seen 3 penalties given in a game like today? Considering the game wasn't even close.

It has the potential to really cost someone especially in the knockout setup we have for the All Ireland again this season.

BonnieSituation

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

The mark creates so many handy scores in situations where in the past a forward could have overrun it or made the wrong choice or lost the ball because of pressure.

The players know this so it's only gonna be worse if this new rule involving penos becomes a constant thing now because the outcome is a lot bigger in the grand scheme of a match.

When was the last time you seen 3 penalties given in a game like today? Considering the game wasn't even close.

It has the potential to really cost someone especially in the knockout setup we have for the All Ireland again this season.

The mark is an abomination. More correctly, the offensive mark is an abomination.

Funnily, crowds will disappear and our success will get blamed.

How Soon Is Now

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The mark is an abomination. More correctly, the offensive mark is an abomination.

Funnily, crowds will disappear and our success will get blamed.

Sure we got the blame for that long ago :pac: actually that's old news where cheaters now! Look at the poor Kerry lads only had a week or two to prepare for the Galway match. Could tell they looked a bit rusty sure...


Can't wait for the match next Sunday but ****e talk will be on an epic scale from the usual crowd in the lead-up god forbid if Dublin don't win.

rolling boh

We must remember the Kerry lads are all natural footballers always have been unlike us manufactured players who got all the money as well .

Comic Book Guy

BonnieSituation wrote: »

The mark is an abomination. More correctly, the offensive mark is an abomination.

Funnily, crowds will disappear and our success will get blamed.

Yeah that forward mark doesn't add to the game at all imo. There was one in the second half where Niall Sully just lobbed a ball way up in the air for no apparent reason to the tv viewer but then one of yer defenders (can't remember who) came into view and caught it (he put his free shot wide).
All within the rules but it just looked ridiculous!

JRant

The more rules they have, the worse the game becomes. How are players supposed to know what's a tackle anymore? At one end we found it very hard to get a free while going the other way they were being given out willy nilly.

Same in the Galway Limerick game today. Sure, they are either contact sports or there not.

They need to sort this messing out or fans will just vote with their feet.

Strumms

How Soon Is Now wrote: »

Between that and the mark there will be some very handy costly scores given and i hope its not against Dublin!

what’s grinding my gears in gaa has been the reluctance of referees to award penalties..hopefully it’s changing, when clearly a foul has been committed and if seen by the ref they should blow the fûckin whistle...award a penalty...

If you can adjudge a foul in the middle of the field , back your judgement and do likewise in front of goal..

I was watching a match last year , I think Meath vs Kildare and a player was prevented from turning and getting a shot away as the two opposing players were boxing and slapping his arms until he drops the ball, no contact with the ball, just the man, Conor Lane ( I think) was about 15 feet away, staring at it for 4-5 seconds and eventually gave a free out as a solution...the attacking player dropped the ball, having had the arms and chest belted off him, it was a penalty that became a free out, somehow...

gormdubhgorm

JRant wrote: »

The more rules they have, the worse the game becomes. How are players supposed to know what's a tackle anymore? At one end we found it very hard to get a free while going the other way they were being given out willy nilly.

Same in the Galway Limerick game today. Sure, they are either contact sports or there not.

They need to sort this messing out or fans will just vote with their feet.

What will happen is what normally happens every time they bring in a controversial new rule, it is rarely refined if there are good aspects of the rule.

It goes through these stages:

1) Refs over apply a new rule to be on the safe side

2) There is a furore - analysts. pundits, managers moan

3) Refs are afraid to apply the new rule as a consequence

4) Refs reach a stage where the rule is no longer really applied

5) The new rule is quietly dropped by the GAA

I always find that football fans, managers , pundits etc are more open to change. Hurling is different Kettle of fish - due to a few factors speed of the game and mindset of fans, managers. pundits etc. Hurling people hate change or anything with subtly or a bit technical in thought.

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

What will happen is what normally happens every time they bring in a controversial new rule, it is rarely refined if there are good aspects of the rule.

It goes through these stages:

1) Refs over apply a new rule to be on the safe side

2) There is a furore - analysts. pundits, managers moan

3) Refs are afraid to apply the new rule as a consequence

4) Refs reach a stage where the rule is no longer really applied

5) The new rule is quietly dropped by the GAA

I always find that football fans, managers , pundits etc are more open to change. Hurling is different Kettle of fish - due to a few factors speed of the game and mindset of fans, managers. pundits etc. Hurling people hate change or anything with subtly or a bit technical in thought.

Should be thrown into the sun.

JRant

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

What will happen is what normally happens every time they bring in a controversial new rule, it is rarely refined if there are good aspects of the rule.

It goes through these stages:

1) Refs over apply a new rule to be on the safe side

2) There is a furore - analysts. pundits, managers moan

3) Refs are afraid to apply the new rule as a consequence

4) Refs reach a stage where the rule is no longer really applied

5) The new rule is quietly dropped by the GAA

I always find that football fans, managers , pundits etc are more open to change. Hurling is different Kettle of fish - due to a few factors speed of the game and mindset of fans, managers. pundits etc. Hurling people hate change or anything with subtly or a bit technical in thought.

Agree on the rule changes, there has been some good rules thrown in the bin for no good reason and others stick around like a bad smell (the offensive mark being one).

Hurling is a little different and a more straight forward game. The rules are already there, they just need to be enforced. What they need to clamp down on is the high arm tackle where the hurl gets wrapped around the shoulder and neck area. It was rare enough to see that type of tackle until recently but now it's one of the more common ones. I'd also like to see players that run straight into the defender penalized more. Lads are barging straight into defenders, falling down and getting a free. It boils my blood being honest. It's also very annoying to see lads grab the defenders hurl under their arm and fall over.

There were a few red cards dished out over the weekend but most of them were deserved. You can't be putting timber on lads nowhere near the ball. It's a dangerous enough game without that kind of carry-on.

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Should be thrown into the sun.

Just to be clear it is the:

'never seen a bad game of hurling, and never seen a good game of football' crowd that I am talking about.

It is just all the talk about Burke getting 18 points against Laois and the like that annoys me.

You would swear it never happened before the way some people are talking.
I remember Cork played Dublin in a NHL match and I think Pa Horgan who was taking the frees. He ended up with 20 plus points pushing 30 I would say.

JRant wrote: »

Agree on the rule changes, there has been some good rules thrown in the bin for no good reason and others stick around like a bad smell (the offensive mark being one).

Hurling is a little different and a more straight forward game. The rules are already there, they just need to be enforced. What they need to clamp down on is the high arm tackle where the hurl gets wrapped around the shoulder and neck area. It was rare enough to see that type of tackle until recently but now it's one of the more common ones. I'd also like to see players that run straight into the defender penalized more. Lads are barging straight into defenders, falling down and getting a free. It boils my blood being honest. It's also very annoying to see lads grab the defenders hurl under their arm and fall over.

There were a few red cards dished out over the weekend but most of them were deserved. You can't be putting timber on lads nowhere near the ball. It's a dangerous enough game without that kind of carry-on.

Like Jrant says I think it is a combination of cynical play by players, and refs not enforcing basic rules properly. Plus I would add increased accuracy by players. And then being given OTT rules on top of that. But it is the cynical things that should be stopped first Grabbing the hurl and even helmet has crept in. All that craic should definitely be discouraged.

I understand how people want the hurling to run and have less stoppages.
Yet there are some who seem to want to go the other way altogether, no foul unless the helmet comes off.

In football I think they are making a right hames of the rules.
The offensive mark was brought in to make the game more free flowing. But it had the opposite effect.
It should be much easier to enforce the rules compared to hurling. Not as fast easier to see the ball. I can understand the logic of why they brought in the new penalty rule to stop the cynical take down where a player 'accepts' a black card to stop a goal scoring chance. But as usual they went completely the other way with it now and fellas will be diving, for sure.

It comes down to wanting to stop cynical play in both codes.
Easiest way I think would be to give the refs more discretion in both games and let him use his own judgement as long as it is applied the same to both teams. As the ref sees it. Was the play cynical in other words. And that should include players diving as well it would cut out codology.

Ok it is not 100% perfect the ref will not get it right all the time. But there will be some refs who are more to the letter and others who let the little things go.
That is the way things used to be before the much maligned refs were bombarded with rules. I never thought I would be feeling sorry for referees!

BonnieSituation

I knew who you were referring to alright. They should be hurled into the sun.

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I knew who you were referring to alright. They should be hurled into the sun.

I have a cousin that is one of those hurling people. From a real proper 'out and out' hurling area in rural ireland. He would sort of reluctantly go to football matches alright, but would almost be gearing up to say how bad football is beforehand.

I am convinced that he would not call foul if he was a ref, even if the helmet went flying - blood would have to show as well!

There is one sure way to wind him up, it is simple, start going on about 'tactics' in hurling and using a sweeper.

BonnieSituation

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I have a cousin that is one of those hurling people. From a real proper 'out and out' hurling area in rural ireland. He would sort of reluctantly go to football matches alright, but would almost be gearing up to say how bad football is beforehand.

I am convinced that he would not call foul if he was a ref, even if the helmet went flying - blood would have to show as well!

There is one sure way to wind him up, it is simple, start going on about 'tactics' in hurling and using a sweeper.

Tell him about the idea of straight knockouts and watch him weep.

thesultan

I don't think they would be as much dislike (champions have that) for Dublin if they went back to som attacking play instead of the this keep ball boredom.. McGuinness spooked them

gormdubhgorm

thesultan wrote: »

I don't think they would be as much dislike (champions have that) for Dublin if they went back to som attacking play instead of the this keep ball boredom.. McGuinness spooked them

I think it is a bit of myth that Dublin only play keep ball 'basketball' Dublin vary it depending on the opponent and the context of the game. They are more than capable of going long when required.

I wouldn't say McGuinness 'spooked' Dublin he improved them. Jim Gavin realised the importance of possession. And how to beat a static defence which does not break forwards until Dublin engage in the tackle, then break.

The 2018 AI against Tyrone was a prime example of Dublin exposing an opponent's tactical weakness. Not engaging where it was unnecessary, keeping possession, working the ball into the 'D' so it was not a low percentage shot when taken. Perfect football and tactical perfection.

If Dublin did not do that they would have played into Tyrone's hands and likely would have lost the game. From what I remember the Dublin Kerry finals were high scoring and Dublin racked up a big score against Mayo in last years AI final.

Dublin also scored at least one goal in their last five all Ireland wins, including draws. More than one goal in four of those games.

2020 - 2-14 v Mayo
2019 - 1-16 (1st game) 1-18 (second game) - v Kerry
2018 - 2-17 - v Tyrone
2017 - 2-18 - v Mayo
2016 - 2-9 (1st game) 1-15 (2nd game) - v Mayo

The 2015 they scored no goals because it was a dirty day against Kerry not conducive to open football.

In total Dublin scored 11 goals in the 7 final games including replays.
On five occasions Dublin have scored 20 plus points.
'Keep Ball Boredom' does not do that on it's own.

The real answer is for the opposition not to constantly stand off Dublin and allow them to play 'keep ball'. It is Dublin's opponents that force/let Dublin play keep ball - as I said originally the 2018 AI final v Tyrone is a prime example of this. Harte and Tyrone were proven to be one trick ponies and tactically devoid on the day.

Sultan of Bling

Ironically the one final where they didn't score a goal was probably their best performance out of all the finals in the last 10 years.

flasher0030

thesultan wrote: »

I don't think they would be as much dislike (champions have that) for Dublin if they went back to som attacking play instead of the this keep ball boredom.. McGuinness spooked them

Wind-up merchant. Dublin is one team you could not associate boredom with.
The fact that they keep winning year after year may be boring and reduce the attractiveness of the sport as a spectator spectacle. But their style of play is definately not boring.

I really hopes Cormac Costello makes a name for himslef over the next year or 2. I think he deserves it. He has grafted away for years, playing second fiddle to Brogans, Mannion, Kilkenny, Rock and O'Callaghan. He has more ability than the lot of them, if he can just get a consistent run going.

JRant

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Just to be clear it is the:

'never seen a bad game of hurling, and never seen a good game of football' crowd that I am talking about.

It is just all the talk about Burke getting 18 points against Laois and the like that annoys me.

You would swear it never happened before the way some people are talking.
I remember Cork played Dublin in a NHL match and I think Pa Horgan who was taking the frees. He ended up with 20 plus points pushing 30 I would say.




Like Jrant says I think it is a combination of cynical play by players, and refs not enforcing basic rules properly. Plus I would add increased accuracy by players. And then being given OTT rules on top of that. But it is the cynical things that should be stopped first Grabbing the hurl and even helmet has crept in. All that craic should definitely be discouraged.

I understand how people want the hurling to run and have less stoppages.
Yet there are some who seem to want to go the other way altogether, no foul unless the helmet comes off.

In football I think they are making a right hames of the rules.
The offensive mark was brought in to make the game more free flowing. But it had the opposite effect.
It should be much easier to enforce the rules compared to hurling. Not as fast easier to see the ball. I can understand the logic of why they brought in the new penalty rule to stop the cynical take down where a player 'accepts' a black card to stop a goal scoring chance. But as usual they went completely the other way with it now and fellas will be diving, for sure.

It comes down to wanting to stop cynical play in both codes.
Easiest way I think would be to give the refs more discretion in both games and let him use his own judgement as long as it is applied the same to both teams. As the ref sees it. Was the play cynical in other words. And that should include players diving as well it would cut out codology.

Ok it is not 100% perfect the ref will not get it right all the time. But there will be some refs who are more to the letter and others who let the little things go.
That is the way things used to be before the much maligned refs were bombarded with rules. I never thought I would be feeling sorry for referees!

I'm all for discretion in general terms but certain items need a zero tolerance approach. Remember the fuss caused when Gleeson was rightly sent off for pulling the helmet off a lad? As clear an example as you'll see yet many jumped to his defense. "Ah sure he didn't mean". Complete bollox IMO and has fairly rapidly come into the game. Grab a helmet, your off. Grab a hurl, free the other way. Hit a lad away from where the ball is, sorry it's an early shower.

The niggly stuff can sometimes be let go and lads will usually get on with it without the need for the ref to blow up every 60 seconds for a free. However, if teams constantly foul and get beaten by frees then that's on then to improve their tackling technique, which has gone to the dogs in hurling lately.

In both codes we now have lads taking contact, falling over, and get easy frees. Yet in the same game a ref will let lads thumps the shïtê out of a forward with closed fists (especially in the football) and give nothing. Even when discretion is applied it's not applied consistently.

bucketybuck

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

I think it is a bit of myth that Dublin only play keep ball 'basketball' Dublin vary it depending on the opponent and the context of the game. They are more than capable of going long when required.

Dublin are well capable of playing great football, but it cannot be denied that there is a hell of a lot of recycling of the ball backwards and sideways in their play.

Dublin will be 10+ points up and you will still see the best players in the country turning back and recycling the ball rather than forcing a risky play.

I get it, it is the percentage play, it is smart and there is so much competition for places that the players will stick to the gameplan even when far in the lead.

But as a neutral we will see a hell of a lot of basketball style play when watching Dublin.

gormdubhgorm

bucketybuck wrote: »

Dublin are well capable of playing great football, but it cannot be denied that there is a hell of a lot of recycling of the ball backwards and sideways in their play.

Dublin will be 10+ points up and you will still see the best players in the country turning back and recycling the ball rather than forcing a risky play.

I get it, it is the percentage play, it is smart and there is so much competition for places that the players will stick to the gameplan even when far in the lead.

But as a neutral we will see a hell of a lot of basketball style play when watching Dublin.

Well as I said that is more the oppositions fault many are afraid to engage Dublin. I never understand why teams stick to the one way of playing. Are they not able to adapt in spells? Dublin have been known to launch it to EOG or Rock in the past.

Tyrone are again the prime example of a team stuck in a mindset. It will take a few years to change their culture.

Sean Cavanagh had the balls to express his frustration over it and criticised from some of those from Tyrone for doing so. But I agreed with him the Tyrone forwards were shackled too much by their own sideline. Tyrone have great forwards in recent years who were underused.

If you think back to Dublin's development Dublin adapted. First Gilroy stopped the backs bombing forward nilly willy like mad things. They were way, way, too loose.

Interestingly I remember Mick O'Dwyer saying it would be the first thing he would have done with Dublin - when there was talk of him taking the Dublin job - before the reaction of the former Dublin players put him off.

Gilroy made Dublin as much a defensive team as he could at the start in the league. And toughened them up after the startled earwigs episode.

Then Jim Gavin took Dublin on another level and made them swashbuckling out and out attack. But it was Donegal who forced Dublin into the keep ball stuff. It was the strategy they realised that counters it most effectively. So you would have to put some blame on Donegal and Jim McGuinness for evloning football to where it is now. They lit the spark.

But because of this development Dublin can play any style. You say Dublin's play is boring for the neutral. I assume you mean, going side to side probing for weakness. I think there is a beauty to that, an intelligence of mind is required and cool heads.

If you see Dublin live, they play lovely patterns of play the movement is superb. They play really intelligent play and could raise the pace suddenly and bang. Lovely to watch. They also switch the play with a kick or pass and use the full pitch. I think a lot of it is just because the average Gaelic football fan is not used to seeing patience. You see it in other sports.

The prime example of fella who was ideal for a change of pace for Dublin's play was Jack McCaffery. The pace could go slow, slow, quick, slow. Normally Kilkenny the fulcrum patient. Then bang McCaffery at full pelt - goal. Beautiful to watch.

I find Gaelic Football fans/players who are critical of Dublin's play are of a certain era. They want crash, bang, wallop, no subtlety 15 on 15. Mick O'Connell would hold this view for instance. Keeper lashing it down the middle aimlessly.50/50 High fielding in midfield, get it up to big Full Forward as quick as possible etc. Few hand passes. How many games would teams win against the top sides doing this today? They would be laughed at. It is more of an old Gaelic Football cultural idea where an old guard refuse to accept change and nuance. It is not the 1950's any more!

1956 AI Football Final

2019 AI Football Final

McCaffery Goal

BonnieSituation

That's the best goal, from a quality pov, I have ever seen.

Poetry. Anyone who wants a return to a game that doesn't have that in it, is off their rocker.

gormdubhgorm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

That's the best goal, from a quality pov, I have ever seen.

Poetry. Anyone who wants a return to a game that doesn't have that in it, is off their rocker.

Exactly it was the first goal I thought of when trying to explain how Dublin developed the game. There looked to be no danger.

Plus they showed that lovely pitch view from behind the Canal (Great place to watch a game by the way) as you can see the way the players are set up on the pitch. I don't think they show that view enough.

Cluxton then found Howard it was not a launched kick. Howard showed a great exhibition of high fielding and bang before you could say 'Dublin Jackeens' or 'The Jacks are back' it was McCaffery goal. Kilkenny - Scully - goal.

If another team scored a goal like that I would find myself clapping. I can remember I clapped McDonald's point against Dublin in 2006 for instance - with an annoyed head on me.

I think it comes down to some Gaelic football fans don't like innovation or change. In this day and age bits are picked up from all sports and adapted to Gaelic Football. And those who don't adapt are left behind.

I was one of those who was horrified back in the 2011 AI SF against Donegal and did not know what to make of it. The Dublin players seemed just as shocked and had no idea what to do. I remember I was one of the fans who joined in with the booing as well! it was a real culture shock.

Thankfully Dublin moved the game on in the years that followed, and innovated themselves. There is no 'culture shock' anymore. Gaelic football is now as much to do with tactical innovation on the sideline as it is with skillful play.

gormdubhgorm

JRant wrote: »

I'm all for discretion in general terms but certain items need a zero tolerance approach. Remember the fuss caused when Gleeson was rightly sent off for pulling the helmet off a lad? As clear an example as you'll see yet many jumped to his defense. "Ah sure he didn't mean". Complete bollox IMO and has fairly rapidly come into the game. Grab a helmet, your off. Grab a hurl, free the other way. Hit a lad away from where the ball is, sorry it's an early shower.

Yeah or it is normally couched in a 'let the game flow', 'hurling is a physical game' etc.

Hurling is a very hard game to ref though because of its speed and size of silothar etc. I often wonder if another ref would make a difference. Maybe make one the 'head ref' and other one the assistant ref for the other half of the pitch?

flasher0030

It is not the 1950's any more!

1956 AI Football Final

2019 AI Football Final

McCaffery Goal

[/QUOTE]

I think the clip between 3.55 and 4.18 sums it up alright.

threeball

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Yeah or it is normally couched in a 'let the game flow', 'hurling is a physical game' etc.

Hurling is a very hard game to ref though because of its speed and size of slothar etc. I often wonder if another ref would make a difference. Maybe make one the 'head ref' and other one the assistant ref for the other half of the pitch?

There's enough officials there as it is but for some reason the GAA won't empower them to act when they witness something. The day of bringing your brother in law and your mate to umpire are gone. A ref should have to select 4 senior level club referees to act as umpires as well as the CP appointed linesmen. All should be wired up and mandated to bring any foul play to the attention of the ref.