Prospective landlords asking for too much information

Graham

In July 2014, a prospective tenant complained about the collection of bank details, PPS
numbers, and copies of utility bills by a letting agency when applying to rent a property. She
stated that she believed that if she did not supply all of the sought data up-front, her application
would not be seriously considered by the letting agency. The complainant said that the practice
of collecting such a broad range of personal data forces prospective tenants who are
desperate to rent a property to submit this personal information at application stage even
though they do not know if their application will be successful. She pointed out that the majority
of applications are unsuccessful given the high demand for a limited supply of rental properties.

The DPC commenced an investigation of the matter with the letting agency concerned, seeking
an explanation for the collection of such a broad range of personal data at application stage.
In response, the letting agency said that it requested PPS numbers from applicants because this
verifies that they are entitled to work in the state, and that bank details are required to show
that a tenant has a bank account because they would be ineligible if they were not able to pay
rent through a bank account. The DPC informed the letting agency that it could not see any
basis for collecting bank details, PPS numbers, or copies of utility bills at application or
property-viewing stage and urged it to cease the practice immediately. The DPC questioned
the letting agency further about using the PPS number to verify the applicant’s work status. It
replied to the effect that the main reason it requests PPS numbers is that it is required for the
Private Residential Tenancies Board (PRTB) registration. It went on to say that it is only an added
assurance that the applicant is working and it stated that it does not verify the PPS number.

The DPC accepted that personal data concerning bank details, PPS numbers and utility bills
could be requested once the applicant had been accepted as a tenant. In October 2014, the
letting agency confirmed, following our investigation, that it had ceased the requesting of this
personal data prior to the property being let and it undertook that it would only request this
information once the tenant had been accepted

Why would the outcome be any different now?

Samuel T. Cogley

The other aspect to this is if LL's insist on all this stuff at the viewing stage it's likely to be legislated that it can't be asked for at all.

Dav010

Graham wrote: »

Why would the outcome be any different now?

I’m sure the LL will be happy next time around to not request it. 😜

Varik

I'm sure such legislation to ban it will be very effective, and not at all easily bypassed. At worst you'd have more viewings for people who've no hope of getting it. Same as with banning rent supplement discrimination. All they care about is perception.

Fol20

Browney7 wrote: »

Then provided they have the relevent policies in place they can ask for it.

LLs shouldn't be asking in advance of conducting viewings for all this information to be provided. Just because a landlord has agreed to show a place to a tenant doesn't mean they have to offer it to them. There is nothing to stop a would be Identity thief putting a fraudulent ad up looking for personal info under the guise of renting a property and seeing what information comes back.

The cynic would also think it's to protect LLs from inadvertently offering to rent the property to a HAP tenant who ticks all other boxes - LL "I'd like to rent my property to you John Doe subject to satisfactory references". JD "no problem, here's my ten landlord references and work reference and HAP eligibility confirmation which illustrates ability to pay"

I don’t think HAP shows an ability to pay. What happens if your hap is stopped for whatever reason. Can the tenant still afford said place. If it was a standard tenant and they were let go, they would try and find another job paying similar wages. You can’t say the same about the government as it’s not like you can go seeking hap from another government.

runawaybishop

Graham wrote: »

Why would the outcome be any different now?

You aren't comparng like for like, the op was not asked for what was posted in your example. Also the letting agency gave a ****e defense on what was, essentially, a query.

Dravokivich

Dav010 wrote: »

I suspect prospective tenants are more concerned about securing a rental property than anything else. I would have thought illegal rent price increases would be more of an issue to tenants than this, but rents keep going up. Sometimes Graham, you have to accept that it isn’t black and white, renting is a beauty contest.

It's a service industry.

JustAThought

Fol20 wrote: »

I don’t think HAP shows an ability to pay. What happens if your hap is stopped for whatever reason. Can the tenant still afford said place. If it was a standard tenant and they were let go, they would try and find another job paying similar wages. You can’t say the same about the government as it’s not like you can go seeking hap from another government.

That’s an excellent point -I never thought if it like that. Great to have forums like this where such valid points can be raised.

As for checking that the people viewing have the capacity to pay and are not misrepresenting their employment history or finances - if the LL is asking you then you are a prospective candidate. If they are not asking you have little or zero hope of renting that place - they’re just not interested n bothering with you. Heads up - go prepared.

V interesting point about the HAP and no fallback second government.

Dav010

Dravokivich wrote: »

It's a service industry.

And only the applicant who appeals most to the landlord benefits from the service.

Graham

Graham wrote: »

I've no doubt you're right but if enough people make complaints to the DPC mindsets and actions will begin to change.

It's an easy enough process online: https://forms.dataprotection.ie/contact

How is a LL supposed to vet the people who he is heading over his property would 100’s of thousands to if all he has access to is a few very likely to be fake references? It’s madness that anyone would take issue with ensuring the ability to pay, consistent income, consistent rent leaving account etc.

You will be asked for banks statements by nearly everyone you do financial business with nowadays, why should a LL be excluded from asking for this.

GDPR is the greatest load of bull that has ever been dreamt up. Also if the LL asks prospective tenants to bring along the statements and he just looks then it’s not a breach of GDPR as he isn’t storing anything.

NuMarvel

Harper Blue Lodge wrote: »

How is a LL supposed to vet the people who he is heading over his property would 100’s of thousands to if all he has access to is a few very likely to be fake references? It’s madness that anyone would take issue with ensuring the ability to pay, consistent income, consistent rent leaving account etc.

You will be asked for banks statements by nearly everyone you do financial business with nowadays, why should a LL be excluded from asking for this.

GDPR is the greatest load of bull that has ever been dreamt up. Also if the LL asks prospective tenants to bring along the statements and he just looks then it’s not a breach of GDPR as he isn’t storing anything.

Considering there are some landlords who are ignorant or rental laws, eg entering people's homes without their permission, it's unsurprising that some some would be concerned about the same group of people being in possession of their personal data.

And you may think data protection is a "load of bull", but like it or not, it is the law and has been for decades, in many countries.

If you want landlords to have the same benefits as other bodies that request financial data, then you're also going to have to accept that they have the same responsibilities as these bodies, and that means treating sensitive personal data properly.

JustAThought

I guess with that attitude you’ll living in your own house-no lease for you. I asked the lsst time I remted out for work contracts & their managers names, LinkedIn profiles & to see their online banking live - fairly successful for me& doable on the spot in the house -no messing &screened out the messers. Made it very easy to make a decision.

Dav010

NuMarvel wrote: »

Considering there are some landlords who are ignorant or rental laws, eg entering people's homes without their permission, it's unsurprising that some some would be concerned about the same group of people being in possession of their personal data.

And you may think data protection is a "load of bull", but like it or not, it is the law and has been for decades, in many countries.

If you want landlords to have the same benefits as other bodies that request financial data, then you're also going to have to accept that they have the same responsibilities as these bodies, and that means treating sensitive personal data properly.

Do you not think EAs handle data properly? What are you basing that on?

NuMarvel

JustAThought wrote: »

I guess with that attitude you’ll living in your own house-no lease for you.

Assuming this is directed at me, my attitude is that landlords obey the laws like everyone else.

Thankfully, the majority of landlords don't have an issue with that. But I agree that there are still plenty of landlords out there who do, and they're the ones giving everyone else a bad name.

NuMarvel

Dav010 wrote: »

Do you not think EAs handle data properly? What are you basing that on?

I think the consequences of a potential data breach are too serious to ignore, which is why data protection laws are designed to ensure excessive amounts of information aren't requested in the first place.

I have no issue with landlords or agents taking reasonable steps to ensure they won't encounter problems down the road. But that doesn't mean they have free reign to ask for whatever they want, no matter how much of a renter's market it is.

beauf

NuMarvel wrote: »

...

If you want landlords to have the same benefits as other bodies that request financial data, then you're also going to have to accept that they have the same responsibilities as these bodies, and that means treating sensitive personal data properly.

Interesting...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/financial-services-sector-most-frequently-fined-for-gdpr-breaches-1.4022493%3fmode=amp

beauf

NuMarvel wrote: »

I think the consequences of a potential data breach are too serious to ignore, which is why data protection laws are designed to ensure excessive amounts of information aren't requested in the first place.

I have no issue with landlords or agents taking reasonable steps to ensure they won't encounter problems down the road. But that doesn't mean they have free reign to ask for whatever they want, no matter how much of a renter's market it is.

Consider if you were to pick a stranger out of 100 other strangers to lend 20k of your personal money to. How would you decide which one to give it to.

The suggestion here is that you make the decision first ask for bona fides second...

Dav010

NuMarvel wrote: »

I think the consequences of a potential data breach are too serious to ignore, which is why data protection laws are designed to ensure excessive amounts of information aren't requested in the first place.

I have no issue with landlords or agents taking reasonable steps to ensure they won't encounter problems down the road. But that doesn't mean they have free reign to ask for whatever they want, no matter how much of a renter's market it is.

I would have thought agents handle personal data every day and would have pretty good data protection policies in place, have you some reason to think they don’t? You might think asking for some proof of identity and means to pay rent is “free reign”, others would argue that it necessary to reduce risk and pick the preferred tenant. Of course, as Graham so kindly linked, there are guidelines on this and the agent/LL might have to justify the reasons for requesting the info, and accept whatever sanction is handed down if the law has been broken.

beauf

The expert advice is no data held on application so...

LL pick a tenant. Its a guess as no personal data checked.

Get the data. Tenant fails the check.

Can't contact next person in list as they are not holding that personal data.

Advertise it again and repeat.

NuMarvel

beauf wrote: »

Consider if you were to pick a stranger out of 100 other strangers to lend 20k of your personal money to. How would you decide which one to give it to.

The suggestion here is that you make the decision first ask for bona fides second...

That of course isn't the suggestion I made. That might be your interpretation, but I think I've been clear that I only expect LLs to follow the same laws as everyone.

Dav010 wrote: »

I would have thought agents handle personal data every day and would have pretty good data protection policies in place, have you some reason to think they don’t?

...

Of course, as Graham so kindly linked, there are guidelines on this and the agent/LL might have to justify the reasons for requesting the info, and accept whatever sanction is handed down if the law has been broken.

Data protection isn't just about keeping data secure, it's also about what's asked for in the first place. So agents with good data protection policies probably don't have anything to worry about, because agents that develop AND implement a good data protection policy will ensure only the required information is collected in the first place.

Dav010 wrote: »

IYou might think asking for some proof of identity and means to pay rent is “free reign”, others would argue that it necessary to reduce risk and pick the preferred tenant.

Just as well I didn't say that, isn't it? In fact I said pretty much the opposite in the very post you quoted.

beauf

NuMarvel wrote: »

.. only the required information is collected in the first place..

What is the required information in the first place.

NuMarvel

beauf wrote: »

What is the required information in the first place.

Information that's necessary in relation to the purposes in question, and can't be fulfilled through other means. It's called data minimisation and is one of the principles of data protection.

A good data protection policy will cover this.

Dav010

NuMarvel wrote: »

Information that's necessary in relation to the purposes in question, and can't be fulfilled through other means. It's called data minimisation and is one of the principles of data protection.

A good data protection policy will cover this.

You don’t think it is important to know if the person you are considering rent your house to, and whom you know will be extremely difficult to remove, if they can’t/won’t pay the rent, has the means to pay it?

Can I borrow some money from you?, You don’t know me, but you can trust me, I swear I’ll pay it back.

beauf

NuMarvel wrote: »

Information that's necessary in relation to the purposes in question, and can't be fulfilled through other means. It's called data minimisation and is one of the principles of data protection.

A good data protection policy will cover this.

We know this.

But specifically... what is the required information in the first place for this specific process.

Will you actually answer the question I wonder...;)

Graham

Why wouldn't you properly vet a tenant once you'd made your provisional selection?

NuMarvel

Dav010 wrote: »

You don’t think it is important to know if the person you are considering rent your house to, and whom you know will be extremely difficult to remove, if they can’t/won’t pay the rent, has the means to pay it?

Of course I think it's important. I said as much only a few posts back. You even quoted that post.

What's ALSO important, is that LLs and agents don't collect more information than is necessary to make these determinations. That's what the law says.

If you keep interpreting that as me saying LLs can't collect *any* data, then that's on you, not me.

beauf

Graham wrote: »

Why wouldn't you properly vet a tenant once you'd made your provisional selection?

"Properly Vet" what ever that means.

If they fail this what then...

beauf

NuMarvel wrote: »

Of course I think it's important. I said as much only a few posts back. You even quoted that post.

What's ALSO important, is that LLs and agents don't collect more information than is necessary to make these determinations. That's what the law says.

If you keep interpreting that as me saying LLs can't collect *any* data, then that's on you, not me.

Well what data specifically?

Graham

beauf wrote: »

"Properly Vet" what ever that means.

If they fail this what then...

You move on to the second choice.

NuMarvel

beauf wrote: »

We know this.

But specifically... what is the required information in the first place for this specific process.

Will you actually answer the question I wonder...;)

I answered the question you asked, and I have to point out that it's clear from the thread that not everyone knows about the concept of data minimisation. If you wanted specific examples, you should have just asked, but I'm happy to do that now .

Someone gave the example earlier of wanting to see someone's live online banking data. That seems excessive to me, because I don't see why anyone needs to see every transaction on a tenant's bank account.

On the other hand, I think an example of a reasonable request would be to see a record of someone rental payments by standing order. That would show reliability and ability to pay, and prove they also have a bank account (if that's a requirement for the LL).