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Prospective landlords asking for too much information

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    #92
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Graham wrote: »
    Which out of "financial statements, utility bills, references, PPSNs," would be necessary to comply with the equal status obligations?

    All of them, potentially. If the criteria were "which of the applicants is in a position to proceed to signing the lease first" then all necessary documents an information should be to hand.


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    #93
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    Graham wrote: »
    The guidelines are pretty clear, the info can only be asked of the provisionally selected tenant.

    There is nothing in the guidelines to suggest it is appropriate to ask the info of all applicants. Quite the opposite.

    Do you have a link where you can only ask the proviso ally selected?

    Likewise in my case, I don’t ask everyone for this. I only ask people that I have a somewhat ok feeling of so technically at that moment in time, I am provisionally happy with them although what they provide me might alter my decision.


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    #94
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    All of them, potentially. If the criteria were "which of the applicants is in a position to proceed to signing the lease first" then all necessary documents an information should be to hand.

    IANAL but I can't see that holding much water.

    Naturally you should enquire to the DPC yourself to explain why a bank statement for example is helping you meet your Equality obligations.


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    #95
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    Captain Flaps wrote: »
    Also the lads who seem to think that showing up to your own property to show people around for half an hour is somehow comparable to a HR hiring process.

    There is similarities between the two. You are nitpicking when you say they are not identical. With hr and reviewing prospective tenants, you need to critique them in a way that is relevant to what they are applying for. Both involve reviewing documents provided by the applicant that can determine if the applicant achieves their desired objective.

    Is this not similar at all?

    If anything reviewing tenants is more important. HR are playing with company money and they may not need to interact with whomever they employ while a ll is using their own money and may have to talk to a tenant on a regular basis.


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    #96
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Graham wrote: »
    IANAL but I can't see that holding much water.

    Naturally you should enquire to the DPC yourself to explain why a bank statement for example is helping you meet your Equality obligations.

    Under anti money laundering legislation estate Agents are required to obtain considerable information as to the identity of their customers and the sources of funds used in transactions. Until they get that they can't go ahead with a lease.
    If they are letting on the basis of needing the soonest possible letting and choosig the most suitable tenant the only people considered will be the people in a position to sign the lease. After that there may be a scoring scheme in relation to previous letting experience, length in current employment ability to pay rent etc.


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    #97
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    Why, thank you :D

    Selectively quoting out of context is funny, but perhaps not how you intended...;)


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    #98
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    I've worked in the public sector, and I received the job offer before reference checks were carried out. The offer was subject to satisfactory checks, references, Garda clearance, etc. If any of those didn't check out, then I didn't get the job. I know this for a fact, because the only reason I got the job was the person before me on the panel didn't pass these checks and therefore didn't get the job. So as you may imagine, I am very pro-checks :pac:.

    But the information I provided was proportionate and reasonable. I didn't have to provide references from everyone I've ever met; just a small number of recent employers. I didn't have to provide evidence of qualifications beyond what was initially stated. I didn't have to have irrelevant medical tests carried out.

    I expect LLs and agents adhere to the same standards. I am not saying they can't collect information needed to make decisions, I'm saying they should only collect the information needed.

    As for the standing of the Data Protection Commissioner, they're certainly not infallible, but they are the regulator in this area. Their guidance isn't just a random opinion; it has weight, especially in the absence of a contrary court judgement.

    Before you got that point of asking for references you've already handed over a ton of personal information.

    So you keep ignoring the first step of the process to jump to the second. How do they decide who to ask for references.


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    #99
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    beauf wrote: »
    Before you got that point of asking for references you've already handed over a ton of personal information.

    So you keep ignoring the first step of the process to jump to the second. How do they decide who to ask for references.

    Exactly. If you take the HR example, people find a job,send in their cv and go from there. Would this also not break Gdpr based on what you have said?


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    #100
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Under anti money laundering legislation estate Agents are required to obtain considerable information as to the identity of their customers and the sources of funds used in transactions. Until they get that they can't go ahead with a lease.

    You should definitely get that information from the individual concerned.


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    #101
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Dav010 wrote: »
    I think you are doing a trolling now Graham, no one is saying you do no checks at all.

    Exactly.

    It's select prospective tenants based on information you're not allowed to collect until after you've selected them.

    Then you have to have a record of the information you used to select prospective tenants, which in this case was thin air. Or contact details lol.

    Tbh even if you based it on financial criteria that can now be considered discrimination, against equality etc.

    Which is fine except if you ask what can you use to select prospective tenants there is no answer. The silence is deafening. Because they've eliminated any means to evaluate risk.


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    #102
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    You evaluate the risk when you obtain the info from your preferred tenant.

    Simples ;)


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    #103
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Graham wrote: »
    You evaluate the risk when you obtain the info from your preferred tenant.

    Simples ;)

    How can you have a preferred tenant without information?


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    #104
    Ubbquittious
    Registered Users Posts: 6,212 ✭✭✭Ubbquittious


    I have never given so much as a reference or a payslip to a land lord and I always managed in the end. Seems that this sort of nonsense is the go of things in thr big smoke.


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    #105
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    How can you have a preferred tenant without information?

    Talk to them.


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    #106
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Graham wrote: »
    You should definitely get that information from the individual concerned.

    Yes. Both the landlord and the prospective tenant.


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    #107
    The Student
    Registered Users Posts: 1,262 ✭✭✭The Student


    Graham wrote: »
    Talk to them.

    How do you prove what they are saying is true so?


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    #108
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    The Student wrote: »
    How do you prove what they are saying is true so?

    When you verify the information/documentation from your preferred potential tenant.


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    #109
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    Graham wrote: »
    When you verify the information/documentation from your preferred potential tenant.

    How can they be a preferred tenant without verifying documentation? Unless you prefer them based on sex,skin colour,good looking etc which I don’t think would end well.


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    #110
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Fol20 wrote: »
    Exactly. If you take the HR example, people find a job,send in their cv and go from there. Would this also not break Gdpr based on what you have said?

    There is the concept of consent. How ever Landlords and agents are advised not to be the collection of data on consent. According to those Doc's.

    They have literally removed any means to make a risk assessment.


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    #111
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Graham wrote: »
    Talk to them.

    Except you have to be able to reproduce how people were selected. Can't do that by taking.


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    #112
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Graham wrote: »
    When you verify the information/documentation from your preferred potential tenant.

    That's the second step. You've got to get past the first part first.

    It's like trying to be called for interview without using CVs.


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    #113
    LollipopJimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,442 ✭✭✭LollipopJimmy


    GDPR doesn’t come into it here unless the landlord is keeping the details.

    Personally I wouldn’t give a back statement but would give a bank reference if the landlord wanted to pay for it, ID, proof of PPS etc would be shown to the landlord when signing the lease.


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    #114
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Fol20 wrote: »
    How can they be a preferred tenant without verifying documentation? Unless you prefer them based on sex,skin colour,good looking etc which I don’t think would end well.

    I don't know many people who's judgment is limited to PPSNs, bank statements & physical appearance.


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    #115
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    Fol20 wrote: »
    Exactly. If you take the HR example, people find a job,send in their cv and go from there. Would this also not break Gdpr based on what you have said?

    I don't think so, because the applicant is only being asked to provide the information needed to move to the next stage.

    The reason they provide more information in employment is because the requirements for a job are more complex than those of looking to rent.

    In employment, each role is different so you have to show that you have the requisite skills and experience to perform the job in order to be shortlisted for an interview. But even then, the information is based solely on what the applicant says; it's rare they have to provide independent evidence before being offered the job.

    In renting, the requirements are that you can afford the rent and that you are trustworthy. Unless someone can point to a high instance of people applying for places they can't afford, there's no reason this can't be based on what the applicant says, until such time as they're offered the place.


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    #116
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,523 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Graham wrote: »
    I don't know many people who's judgment is limited to PPSNs, bank statements & physical appearance.

    Again, I think you are trolling. As a mod, if someone else was doing this, you would be acting on it.

    Renting without checking the fundamental ability of the tenant to afford rent would be anathema to many. You better believe that a tenant will be judged on appearance and the ability to pay, the benefit of applying the selection criteria from the start is that only those who show they are able to afford it will be considered.


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    #117
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    LollipopJimmy wrote: »
    GDPR doesn’t come into it here unless the landlord is keeping the details.

    I don't think so. Data protection relates to the processing of personal data, and processing includes collecting the data, not just the storage or retention. The DPC definitions are here.


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    #118
    LollipopJimmy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,442 ✭✭✭LollipopJimmy


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    I don't think so. Data protection relates to the processing of personal data, and processing includes collecting the data, not just the storage or retention. The DPC definitions are here.

    I am quite clear on GDPR, as you are fully aware keeping=processing and retaining. So if you show a LL a copy of whatever, they look at it and hand it back there is no GDPR issue.

    And once the data is collected by asking the tenant for it then that doesn't come into it either


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    #119
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    NuMarvel wrote: »
    ...The reason they provide more information in employment is because the requirements for a job are more complex than those of looking to rent. ..

    I think people putting tens of thousands on the line might disagree with you.
    NuMarvel wrote: »
    ...it's rare they have to provide independent evidence before being offered the job.


    When did references, stop being a thing for job applications.

    There are often skill tests for jobs.


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    #120
    Captain Flaps
    Registered Users Posts: 1,834 ✭✭✭Captain Flaps


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Again, I think you are trolling. As a mod, if someone else was doing this, you would be acting on it.

    Renting without checking the fundamental ability of the tenant to afford rent would be anathema to many. You better believe that a tenant will be judged on appearance and the ability to pay, the benefit of applying the selection criteria from the start is that only those who show they are able to afford it will be considered.

    JFC, it's common sense. You hold a viewing, you collect names and contact info from those who arrive. You chat to people, answer question, and you create a mental shortlist of the people you like best based on whatever criteria you like provided you're not being discriminatory. You pick your favourite, you contact them to request the relevant info. If you're not satisfied you move on to the next potential candidate and so on. If you don't like any of the tenants or the info doesn't check out you hold another viewing.


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    #121
    NuMarvel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,279 ✭✭✭NuMarvel


    beauf wrote: »
    I think people putting tens of thousands on the line might disagree with you.

    I think the rest of my post sets out why my reasoning. Anyone who believes otherwise is welcome set out their thinking.
    beauf wrote: »
    When did references, stop being a thing for job applications.

    CVs already include the names of your previous and current employers. Providing the names of referees isn't providing any additional personal data.
    beauf wrote: »
    There are often skill tests for jobs.

    Completing a skills test isn't providing personal data.


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