End of lease

h0neybadger

First issue

Hi, myself and 2 others signed a 12 month lease.
At the end of the lease, myself and 1 other (let’s call her Sarah) desired to move out, as the third person was not suitable to live with. (Let’s call him Frank)

Several issues arose during the year, which the estate agent ignored and refused to deal with. Guards were involved, and statements taken.

Landlord and estate agent declined to help, and declined to dissolve the lease.

At the end of the lease, we (myself and Sarah) sent our notice not to renew the lease. (6 weeks in advance)
Estate agent then emailed all 3 of us, asking if anyone wished to remain.

Frank did. And as such, estate agent told myself and Sarah, that they will ammend the lease, and remove us from it. But not return our share of deposit (€600 each) until all 3 have moved out.
I asked them to clarify this, and they told me that if Frank stays for 5 years, and then moves out, only then will myself and Sarah get our deposit.
Any damages Frank causes between now and then, or if he breaks his lease, they will use the €1800 deposit to cover this.

They told us if we want our money sooner, we can ask a Frank to give us €600 each. And they will continue to hold the full deposit.

I spoke with several staff in their office, and they all said the same thing.

I’m struggling to verify this info. Are they allowed to do this?
It seems grossly unfair.
We do not wish to renew the lease.
They are free to make their own new lease with Frank, but I would have assumed a deposit refund to us, and they collect new deposit from Frank when he signs a new lease with them...

We are aware we have continued the lease. We have no way out of it for another 8 months. We however do want to leave when the lease is up, or have Frank move out. But he is unwilling to do so. And we can't get our deposit back until he leaves.

Second issue:

Anyway, we had no choice but to continue the lease, as we didn't have funds available for new deposit.
We are now 4 months into the new lease. Frank is being... Frank again. Additionally, now he is refusing to pay bills.

The full rent, ESB, gas, broadband, bins are deducted from my bank.
Frank and Sarah transfer money to me as bills come in.

Frank has now decided to stop paying internet.
€30 a month each)
I have an 18 month contract with Vodafone.
He decided the bill is too high. He does not agree that I can’t change the contract rate. (we currently pay €90, however new customers can get same service for less than €50 a month).

We Each paid €60 installation charge, and now he has withheld €60 from this month’s rent. And refused to pay anymore towards broadband, claiming the reduction in rent is to cover his installation fee, which he feels entitled to a refund of.

I understand the broadband is in my name. I am willing to pay my share and his, as I have now removed WiFi access etc.
But I’m still short €60 from his rent.

I don’t know what to do. Estate agent have said it’s not their problem.
Any help would be great.

Claw Hammer

You rented jointly with him. Now you need to get him out at the end of the lease and claim your deposit back. He can't stay o unless he is willing to pay the full rent.

topmanamillion

Claw Hammer wrote: »

You rented jointly with him. Now you need to get him out at the end of the lease and claim your deposit back. He can't stay o unless he is willing to pay the full rent.

... Or he finds 2 people to take the other rooms.

OP go to the PRTB.
The property agency is talking b*locks.
The lease is up and you're both leaving.
You all should get the €1800 back.
Frank is taking up a new lease. The new deposit for that is his problem.

As for the bills, that's the danger of signing up to longterm broadband deals and the likes.
See if you can negotiate a get out fee with them and cut your loses. It'll be a lesson well learnt not to be the named person on longterm bills like that.

Claw Hammer

topmanamillion wrote: »

... Or he finds 2 people to take the other rooms.

OP go to the PRTB.
The property agency is talking b*locks.
The lease is up and you're both leaving.
You all should get the €1800 back.
Frank is taking up a new lease. The new deposit for that is his problem.

As for the bills, that's the danger of signing up to longterm broadband deals and the likes.
See if you can negotiate a get out fee with them and cut your loses. It'll be a lesson well learnt not to be the named person on longterm bills like that.

The lease is only up when you surrender possession and give back the keys. It is clear that you're not in fact giving up possession are giving back the keys as of now. You are proposing to walk off out of the property but without terminating the agreement. You cannot sever a letting agreement into three parts it is joint and several. Don't waste your time with the RTB at this point.

MacDanger

If you're 4 months into the new lease then the first question is moot at this point. I think they were incorrect to withold the deposit as they did and you should have fought this. Too late for that now though.

If I were you, I'd write to the LL/agency (the required template is here: https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/forms-documents/) saying that you wish to terminate your lease giving the appropriate notice period and that you are offering to find an alternative person to take the property for the same rent for the remaining 8 months of your lease (i.e. assigning your portion of the lease).

If they refuse, then you are permitted to break the lease and they should return your deposit.

As regards Vodafone, I'd try ringing them and see if they'll give you a reduction although you may have to sign up for a new contract

Claw Hammer

MacDanger wrote: »

If you're 4 months into the new lease then the first question is moot at this point. I think they were incorrect to withold the deposit as they did and you should have fought this. Too late for that now though.

If I were you, I'd write to the LL/agency (the required template is here: https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/forms-documents/) saying that you wish to terminate your lease giving the appropriate notice period and that you are offering to find an alternative person to take the property for the same rent for the remaining 8 months of your lease (i.e. assigning your portion of the lease).

If they refuse, then you are permitted to break the lease and they should return your deposit.

As regards Vodafone, I'd try ringing them and see if they'll give you a reduction although you may have to sign up for a new contract

Where you getting 4 months into the new lease? How can you subdivide a lease which is joint and several?

MacDanger

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Where you getting 4 months into the new lease?

Anyway, we had no choice but to continue the lease, as we didn't have funds
available for new deposit.
We are now 4 months into the new lease.

Claw Hammer wrote: »

How can you subdivide a lease which is joint and several?

The OP would be reassigning their part of the lease to a third party for the remaining duration of the lease. By your rationale, Frank can keep them in this lease indefinitely which doesn't seem to make sense

Claw Hammer

MacDanger wrote: »

The OP would be reassigning their part of the lease to a third party for the remaining duration of the lease. By your rationale, Frank can keep them in this lease indefinitely which doesn't seem to make sense

They signed up with Frank in a joint and several contract, they can't just walk away. They will have to take some action against Frank. They can't assign part of a lease. To do that they would need the landlord's permission to sublet or subdivide the lease which the landlord can refuse to do. It is up to the OP to get Frank out.

Ray Palmer

This seems to been made overly complicated. Frank stays gets new house mates and gets a deposit off them. Pays OP and Sarah the deposit he got off the new tenants and you are done.

You don't get the deposit back until the lease is ended. The way above is you ending the lease and resolving deposits until the lease ends with Frank and he gets his deposit back and pays back the new tenants with the remaining amount which they paid at the start.

I can't see what the issue is

MacDanger

Claw Hammer wrote: »

They signed up with Frank in a joint and several contract, they can't just walk away. They will have to take some action against Frank. They can't assign part of a lease. To do that they would need the landlord's permission to sublet or subdivide the lease which the landlord can refuse to do. It is up to the OP to get Frank out.

Have you any link to back up this?

From the PRTB website:

Assignment is where a tenant transfers his or her entire interest in a tenancy to a third party. The original tenant then ceases to have any interest or involvement in the tenancy and the assignee becomes the tenant who now deals directly with the Landlord.
Assignment can only take place with the consent of the landlord. Where a landlord refuses an assignment of a fixed term tenancy, a tenant can serve a notice of termination on the landlord

I read that as the OP being able to reassign their portion of the lease.

h0neybadger

Ray Palmer wrote: »

This seems to been made overly complicated. Frank stays gets new house mates and gets a deposit off them. Pays OP and Sarah the deposit he got off the new tenants and you are done.

You don't get the deposit back until the lease is ended. The way above is you ending the lease and resolving deposits until the lease ends with Frank and he gets his deposit back and pays back the new tenants with the remaining amount which they paid at the start.

I can't see what the issue is

To clarify some stuff.

1. We do not want to leave now.
We are ok to stay until end of 8 months, when the second 12 month term is over.

2. Even if we can legally leave now, Frank gives zero ****s about finding new tenants. He has offered to take the full lease himself, but since the estate agent told him they will keep our deposit until he leaves, he won’t give us our share (aka buy our share of deposit out)

We are therefor, stuck here until he decides on his own accord to leave, we are being financially held in the lease against our will by the estate agent.
We have been told by them we can leave at each end of 12 month lease. But no deposit back until ALL 3 have left.
And that includes him taking his own lease with our names not on it. They will still keep our deposit until he leaves, and use our share to cover any damage he causes.

h0neybadger

MacDanger wrote: »

If you're 4 months into the new lease then the first question is moot at this point. I think they were incorrect to withold the deposit as they did and you should have fought this. Too late for that now though.

If I were you, I'd write to the LL/agency (the required template is here: https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/forms-documents/) saying that you wish to terminate your lease giving the appropriate notice period and that you are offering to find an alternative person to take the property for the same rent for the remaining 8 months of your lease (i.e. assigning your portion of the lease).

If they refuse, then you are permitted to break the lease and they should return your deposit.

As regards Vodafone, I'd try ringing them and see if they'll give you a reduction although you may have to sign up for a new contract

We tried to fight. They refused to refund it. We had zero choice but to continue another 12 months.

As for Vodafone, that’s not an issue really. I can always move it to a new location. But without our deposit back, we can’t leave.

Graham

Did you attempt to engage the RTB at any stage h0neybadger?

They may be willing to mediate between you and the landlord particularly on the subject of reassignment/deposit.

h0neybadger

Graham wrote: »

Did you attempt to engage the RTB at any stage h0neybadger?

They may be willing to mediate between you and the landlord particularly on the subject of reassignment/deposit.

Yes. They were hesitant to get involved, and were very pushy for us to seek a solution with the landlord directly, avoiding the estate agent.

Estate agent refused landlord contact details as they live abroad, and dismissed the matter.
As time as closing in on renewal of lease, we were stuck for somewhere to move to, without return of our deposit.

I know it’s only €1,200 but we didn’t have any other source to pay new deposit without reclaiming this one.

h0neybadger

Just to clarify the goal here:

We will wait out the 8 months.
We just need to know if legally, the estate agent is allowed to keep our deposit until Frank moves out in a few years.
If it’s accurate, it’s a seriously **** system.
We’ll also have been here 2 years, and I’m sure some other stuff will come into play with different timeframes having been here.

Claw Hammer

MacDanger wrote: »

Have you any link to back up this?

From the PRTB website:

I read that as the OP being able to reassign their portion of the lease.

the tenant happens to include the three individuas named on the lease. If you look at the lease it will recite the names and then say hereinafter "the tenant". A lease cannot be subdivided without consent. There are not 3 leases, there is one. Only one lease can be assigned. What you are proposing is that one lease can be split in 3 (Without the landlords consent) and then individual parts assigned. You are entirely misreading the provisions.

Claw Hammer

h0neybadger wrote: »

Just to clarify the goal here:

We will wait out the 8 months.
We just need to know if legally, the estate agent is allowed to keep our deposit until Frank moves out in a few years.
If it’s accurate, it’s a seriously **** system.
We’ll also have been here 2 years, and I’m sure some other stuff will come into play with different timeframes having been here.

You moved in with Frank, until you are all out of the house and possession given to another tenant with consent or back to the landlord you are stuck with Frank.

MacDanger

Claw Hammer wrote: »

You moved in with Frank, until you are all out of the house and possession given to another tenant with consent or back to the landlord you are stuck with Frank.

So Frank can effectively keep them in this lease indefinitely? Have you something to back up your repeated claim here because it certainly sounds illogical

whomitconcerns

If Frank signs a new lease in his name then he is the only one liable. You don't sign then you aren't. The lease you are on ends and they give back your deposit. If they choose to take him on a new lease with a new deposit that's their choice, nothing to do with you. Your lease ends in 8 months

Graham

+1

Next time the agent asks you to renew the lease, politely decline.

Claw Hammer

MacDanger wrote: »

So Frank can effectively keep them in this lease indefinitely? Have you something to back up your repeated claim here because it certainly sounds illogical

It is entirely logical. the three of them combined to become the tenant of the dwelling. The legislation provides that if the lease is not renewed and the tenant remains in occupation the letting continues. If the keys are not handed back at the end of the lease the tenant is deemed to remain in occupation. The OP combined with Frank. He cannot simply pass Frank onto the landlord. The OP a number of ways of getting out of the problem that he now has.

Claw Hammer

MacDanger wrote: »

So Frank can effectively keep them in this lease indefinitely? Have you something to back up your repeated claim here because it certainly sounds illogical

It is entirely logical. the three of them combined to become the tenant of the dwelling. The legislation provides that if the lease is not renewed and the tenant remains in occupation the letting continues. If the keys are not handed back at the end of the lease the tenant is deemed to remain in occupation. The OP combined with Frank. He cannot simply pass Frank onto the landlord. The OP a number of ways of getting out of the problem that he now has.

meijin

h0neybadger wrote: »

We had zero choice but to continue another 12 months.

do you mean that you signed new contract for 12 months?

ted1

topmanamillion wrote: »

... Or he finds 2 people to take the other rooms.

OP go to the PRTB.
The property agency is talking b*locks.
The lease is up and you're both leaving.
You all should get the €1800 back.
Frank is taking up a new lease. The new deposit for that is his problem.

As for the bills, that's the danger of signing up to longterm broadband deals and the likes.
See if you can negotiate a get out fee with them and cut your loses. It'll be a lesson well learnt not to be the named person on longterm bills like that.

The property was rented as a whole. There fire deposit remains till its handed back over to the landlord as a whole. Best option is to find 2 new tenants to replace you.

Assetbacked

Read the lease thoroughly to see if there is anything in it which might help you.

If you stopped paying rent the landlord could give you notice to terminate the tenancy. That brings its own issues but is a way out. Not a recommended course of action from me.

h0neybadger

Graham wrote: »

+1

Next time the agent asks you to renew the lease, politely decline.

That’s the issue. We did decline. And because frank offered to take the lease himself, the estate agent told him they will agree to this.
And then told him they will hold all 3 x €600 current deposit until he moves out.
Regardless if we move out now, they will still keep mine and Sarah’s deposit until Frank leaves. 2-3-4 years time!

h0neybadger

Assetbacked wrote: »

Read the lease thoroughly to see if there is anything in it which might help you.

If you stopped paying rent the landlord could give you notice to terminate the tenancy. That brings its own issues but is a way out. Not a recommended course of action from me.

Went through it thoroughly. Sadly nothing of help.
Not allowed sublet, and as we would be only replacing individuals and not a full replacement, they won’t allow this either.

Claw Hammer

h0neybadger wrote: »

That’s the issue. We did decline. And because frank offered to take the lease himself, the estate agent told him they will agree to this.
And then told him they will hold all 3 x €600 current deposit until he moves out.
Regardless if we move out now, they will still keep mine and Sarah’s deposit until Frank leaves. 2-3-4 years time!

If he takes over the lease it would have to be by way of assignment from you. If you don't assign to him and he signs a new lease himself, then the landlord would be obliged to return the deposit on the first lease. You would have to claim to the RTB. It is a messy way of doing it and not what I would do in your situation.

JustMe,K

Frank sounds like a complete d*ck.

But you do know that even on the issue of a deposit, you are unlikely to get it back before you move out anyway, it could take a week or more so you might not be able to use it for a new property.

I'd give my notice and leave, let the estate agent sort out a new lease with Frank, and then raise a dispute with RTB for the return of the deposit.

Doop

You need to save up a new deposit as regardless you will have to pay it to a new LL prior to getting refunded your current deposit (IF you get back at this stage).


Seems like you are caught between a rock and a hard place. What does Frank say when you bring up the deposit? does he flatly refuse to pay it to you?

If Frank wants to stay on after the end of this lease why not (by agreement with him) change over the rent payment details prior to the last month. Let him pay the final month of the current lease in full in lieu of him giving you your deposit.

spaceHopper

You need to call the RTB and get them to sort it out, from the sound of it the EA should not have kept the deposit. In the mean time you are in this mess because you couldn't afford to move with out your deposit. Start to save some money but it in the credit union so that if you ever need to you can borrow too