What went wrong with places like Ballymun, Jobstown, Darndale etc.

BanditLuke

satguy wrote: »

One or two rotten families can spoil an area,, but one or two really really rotten families can send a whole area to hell.

We need to round up anti social families, if some areas are to saved.

We'd a couple of those families in our area and the Gardai and council did nothing about them so matters where handled internally. They moved out of their own accord a day or two later.

Unfortunately as you say all it takes is one or two bad eggs and ignorant people end up tarring whole communities with one brush.

mariaalice

Every group that has been uprooted from traditional forms of support has ended up with problems.

Jinglejangle69

BanditLuke wrote: »

What free houses?

The ones that people pay their 30 euro a week rent from their dole.

Or the ones that just don't pay and that's why their is 30 million in rent arrears owed to DCC with no evictions.

Take your pick.

ILoveYourVibes

olestoepoke wrote: »

My whole point was that smarter kids won't be left behind because of their income as they were in the 70s and 80s. It is all their for them if they have the brains and work ethic. I personally know of people who came from some of these rough estates and parents didn't care much about education and are now working professionals with a college education. It is all there if you want it regardless of how much money you have.

So middle class kids are just smarter? Genetically?

Why are the numbers going to college from these areas so low? have you seen the figures?


Are these kids just genetically dumb ? Working class families just statistically have more genetically dumb kids you say? Or are genetically lazy??

That's it they are just genetically dumb and genetically lazy according to you.
lol

ITman88

What went wrong with places like Ballymun, Jobstown, Darndale etc.
The wrong people having kids, and often to many.
In this country one needs a licence to
-Drive
-keep a dog
-fish certain areas
-keep a gun
But the most responsible act of having kids can be done by anyone with no prerequisite’s!

ILoveYourVibes

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

The ones that people pay their 30 euro a week rent from their dole.

Or the ones that just don't pay and that's why their is 30 million in rent arrears owed to DCC with no evictions.

Take your pick.

so you want them on the streets? lovely...clever

I think we should all get free houses.

ITman88

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

So middle class kids are just smarter? Genetically?

Why are the numbers going to college from these areas so low? have you seen the figures?


Are these kids just genetically dumb ? Working class families just statistically have more genetically dumb kids you say? Or are genetically lazy??

That's it they are just genetically dumb and genetically lazy according to you.
lol

They are no more dumb than we are, they and us are a product of the environment we grow up in

mariaalice

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Middle and upper class children do consistently better in the leaving. That's a fact.

Must be those middle class genes.

You know very well it's supportive parenting and environment that make all the difference and after that its money but parenting and environment is proir.

BanditLuke

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

The ones that people pay their 30 euro a week rent from their dole.

Or the ones that just don't pay and that's why their is 30 million in rent arrears owed to DCC with no evictions.

Take your pick.

Everyone i know in our estate (half social half affordable) works bar two families and one guy who's disabled so no free houses.

Luke

ILoveYourVibes

ITman88 wrote: »

They are no more dumb than we are, they and us are a product of the environment we grow up in

I agree.

olestoepoke

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

So middle class kids are just smarter? Genetically?

Why are the numbers going to college from these areas so low? have you seen the figures?


Are these kids just genetically dumb ? Working class families just statistically have more genetically dumb kids you say? Or are genetically lazy??

That's it they are just genetically dumb and genetically lazy according to you.
lol

Don't need to look at the figures, I know they are low. And no I don't think they aren't genetically dumb or genetically lazy. Nor did I say that, those are your words. I think there are many reasons why the numbers are so low but not having the money for tuition is not one of those reasons is what I was saying. You are looking for an argument about an issue that we weren't talking about. Ill say it again college is free for anyone that wants it in this country if they do not need to pay for accommodation.

ILoveYourVibes

mariaalice wrote: »

You know very well it's supportive parenting and environment that make all the difference and after that its money but parenting and environment is proir.

I think all three are equal.

Bertie Ahern raised Celia Ahern ..look at him and his character. Scumbag. Her books are a yawn fest ...'Where Rainbows End' i mean can you think of a more sickly title for a book.

Money and connections matter.

Dorakman

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

So middle class kids are just smarter? Genetically?

Why are the numbers going to college from these areas so low? have you seen the figures?


Are these kids just genetically dumb ? Working class families just statistically have more genetically dumb kids you say? Or are genetically lazy??

That's it they are just genetically dumb and genetically lazy according to you.
lol

It kind of makes sense though. Clever parents earn more money, and have middle class, clever children. It’s a fact of life.

Dorakman

ITman88 wrote: »

They are no more dumb than we are, they and us are a product of the environment we grow up in

Ah now

Richard Hillman

Many reasons

They didn't evict the troublesome families quickly enough. It only takes one or two to take an entire estate down. I know that from personal experience.

Anybody who went and got themselves good employment, got the hell out of there ASAP. There was nobody to look up to and say look at Joe/Josephine, worked hard at school and got themselves a career.

When a decent family moved out, in came somebody from another area that was thrown out or was shouting the loudest down the council office.

There was too much of blind eye thrown towards little Johnny, "sure he's Marys young lad, he's a good lad really".

Low expectations. A lot of families have the bar set so low that they just wanted their kids to stay out of trouble. Not finish school, go to college/get a trade, be a fully functioning member of society. There can be a very inverted snobbery in some areas. Phrases like "notions" or "a bit up themselves". I remember Obama making a speech a while ago when president, he was talking about social promotion, people going from being working to middle class. If a Taoiseach said something along those lines, they would be absolutely lynched by the media and opposition parties.

It's all very regressive. The worst families brought the areas down. A lack of ambition by a large section. Social promotion being frowned upon amongst certain segments. A blind eye being turned to low level crime.

the_syco

piplip87 wrote: »

If councils and TULSA did their jobs and identify scumbag parents quicker these areas would not have such chronic amounts of crime

You either let one place goto hell, and shove all the wasters into it, or you allow the wasters to go all over the place.

AFAIK, there's no final solution to get rid of the wasters, so said wasters turn to crime.

Raconteuse

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

State agencies are the worst abusers of children.

No, those who beat/rape children are the worst abusers of children.

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

some people are just scumbags basically and want things for free and blame everyone else when they don't get them.

It actually seems a uniquely Irish thing.

Most people in the world realise the concept of if you want something earn it.

In Ireland there seems to be a growing attitude and cohert that the government must provide you and no questions asked.

Hardly a uniquely Irish thing. Look at Britain.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

So middle class kids are just smarter? Genetically?

Are these kids just genetically dumb ? Working class families just statistically have more genetically dumb kids you say? Or are genetically lazy??

That's it they are just genetically dumb and genetically lazy according to you.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

so you want them on the streets? lovely

They didn't say any of those things of course. But shur where's the fun in truth.

Maewyn Succat

BanditLuke wrote: »

What free houses?

If you have a family where nobody in the family works for a couple of generations where does the money come from to pay for the house they live in?

Jizique

Silentcorner wrote: »

There was always a very inner city dynamic that most people don't get or understand.

A lot of Working Class neighbourhoods up to the 70s in particular had a very healthy dynamic of helping one another, helping your neighbour, such was the proximity of other families nobody could hide issues, it was perfectly normal for old women for instance to know every single young person on the surrounding streets, it created a police force if you will, if a young fella got up to mischief he could be handled by the community much more effectively, if you ever talk to someone who grew up in these area's they will articulate a great affection (more often then not) for their upbringing....if it takes a village to rear a child then the inner cities were perfect for raising a child so long as you can avoid deep poverty.

Making new towns (and it was the same in Cork/Limerick) severely damaged those dynamics, they were souless places where the population were left to try and recreate those dynamics, before that could be achieved, within the space of 10 years, they were fighting a battle with hard drugs that would go on to destroy them altogether supported by a well meaning but ultimately futile social welfare support system.

The Gardai and certainly The State does not and never will understand how those neighbourhood's were rich with an inter personal culture because they never came from area's like that themselves!

Those neighborhoods were a no-go area

Jizique

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Total politics.

Bradshaw Report of 1982/83.

It said people take drugs because they felt disempowered, so the report recommended counselling, involvement from the church, and to treat addicts like sick people.

You can find a .PDF link here: https://www.drugsandalcohol.ie/5060/

The report was buried and not acted on and the govt of the time instead said that, "It cannot however, be too strongly stressed that in this area, above all others it is individual decision which counts most. The decision not to experiment with hard drugs is one any individual can make before he becomes hooked."

What is the point of this?
The two most senior individuals in the UK government have broadly admitted to taking drugs, Gove and Johnson; they were SO disempowered in their private schools and their journalist careers

Grab All Association

To rephrase a quote by LBJ If you can convince the lowest middle class man he's better than the best working class man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.

If child benefit was capped to a maximum of two children within a 4 year period and paid in vouchers redeemable for clothing and education and council housing priority reverted back to those longest on the list there’d be less of these types of scumbags in 20 years. Jobseeker’s Allowance isn’t the problem, it’s lone parent. Make it illegal for a child to leave school without attaining the leaving cert applied. Sanctions of adult benefits if a child misses school without good reason or is a disruption/suspended in school.

Psychiatric drug treatment for repeat offenders. Lobotomies etc

Gen.Zhukov

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Omg this wasn't in tallaght ..but one halloween ...kids were throwing lighted missiles ..so my dad went out with a club (like a base ball bat) and started hitting them right back at them like a mental ****er!

Jaysus, the Vico road really has gone to sh!t!

AllForIt

There is no policy, public discussion, debate, on how to deal/cope/manage with certain sectors of society who quite frankly are complexity incapable. It's the whole 'don't you dare look down on ppl' idea. This I feel is very much a Catholic notion that the country is still influenced by.

Giving ppl money to survive and leaving them to their own devices thereafter is a recipe for disaster. Low level intimidation, petty crime, are the pass-times of those who have absolutely no direction in their lives. Noting to concentrate on, no self-improvement, nothing to aim for, nothing - all day every day.

It's not just Ballymun, city suburbs, it's in pockets of towns across the country is less well known areas. There is a mini Ballymun in every town in the country.

My point is, is that there is a long standing embargo about talking about this problem rationally. Given that, there is no hope to sort this problem out. Socialist will say it's all about spreading the wealth but what is evident spreading wealth does not fix the nature of the people in question or the problems they create.

Raconteuse

I don't see how it could be connected to Catholicism. The Catholic church could be very hostile to the poor.

I think it's more a middle class liberal guilt thing.

James Brown

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Started off been spoiled by getting a free house.

Then it rolls from there.

Lot of decent people lived in them but some people are just scumbags basically and want things for free and blame everyone else when they don't get them.

It actually seems a uniquely Irish thing.

Most people in the world realise the concept of if you want something earn it.

In Ireland there seems to be a growing attitude and cohert that the government must provide you and no questions asked.

Its Baffling.

Ah the disclaimer let's you go rank and generalise about an entire section of society. Nice.
You're just ranting the same aul shyte. Yes some people are scumbags. Very insightful.

Only takes two or three dodgy families to ruin an entire area.

James Brown

Jizique wrote: »

What is the point of this?
The two most senior individuals in the UK government have broadly admitted to taking drugs, Gove and Johnson; they were SO disempowered in their private schools and their journalist careers

A big difference between money and no money. Gerry Ryan was able to kill himself with cocaine that likely was trafficked by the westies or the like. Where do you think everyone got their E's from? If you're an addict and poor, you rob. Many reasons why people take drugs. Once you're hooked it's to live.

piplip87

piplip87 wrote: »

Putting a bunch of permanent jobseekers in large numbers into one area breeds crime. You get fellas growing up with a parent who does not work so cannot provide for them, then they see the local scumbags driving good cars, plenty of money etc so they decide to follow suit. Unfortunately some who try to follow will like drugs too much and will take instead of sell.

Now I am not bashing council estates, I am only bashing the small minority in these places who cause trouble.

If councils and TULSA did their jobs and identify scumbag parents quicker these areas would not have such chronic amounts of crime

They can identify all they want but there is a thing called the Constitution and then family courts. Tusla can't just go around taking kids into care.

And too be honest even when they do, the systems not fit for purpose but that's not on tusla, they don't make the law

Grab All Association

Grab All Association wrote: »

Psychiatric drug treatment for repeat offenders. Lobotomies etc

Hello comrad Stalin.

Why not just shoot them if your going to perform a completely unnecessary and widely condemned medical treatment that will more than likely make them vegetables?

CrankyHaus

Id actually argue that a lot went right with Ireland's 20th century social housing developments.

For every Ballymun there was a Raheny, for every Jobstown an Artane. Visit the Council built estate in Donnybrook or Howth and try to tell me it's worse than many of the newer "private" apartment developments with majority Council and Housing Trust tenancies that are quickly turning into slums.

In any case all of these Council developments, even the worst were a significant improvement on the crowded, damp, disease ridden tenements of the inner city that they replaced.

On the whole the country did a far better job on housing in that period than it has in the last 20 years.
I suspect the repeated conflation of all social housing with a tiny sample of its least successful examples is part of a broader ideological push of private capital into the nation's housing, with deleterious effects for most of us.

Idbatterim

It was the homes that turned the people mad. Same would have happened if you put the middle and upper classes there ... L! O! L!