What went wrong with places like Ballymun, Jobstown, Darndale etc.

mariaalice

suicide_circus wrote: »

you'll never lose votes by telling people their problems are caused by others.

The people being supported do not live in a milieu like that, mostly they dont reflect on why they are there, they are just surviving, you might get the odd few who get educated a certain way and start talking about class warfare or the hierarchy of oppression( which does exist ).

However, there are no end of people who never grew up in the situation who are happy to tell them they are oppressed.

suicide_circus

mariaalice wrote: »

The people being supported do not live in a milieu like that, mostly they dont reflect on why they are there, they are just surviving, you might get the odd few who get educated a certain way and start talking about class warfare or the hierarchy of oppression( which does exist ).

However, there are no end of people who never grew up in the situation who are happy to tell them they are oppressed.

change comes from within

twowheelsonly

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

They are tremendous grooming ground for Sinn Féin.
The world is against them. they can claim all the problems are the cause of someone else and not thier own. Generations of families who do not go on to third level. Lots of single mothers who had immaculate conceptions.
Rinse and repeat and it continues.

It is a cultural thing and it hard for people within that cultural mindset to break free from it.

They're a breeding ground for any politicians that will listen to them and empathise with them without being patronising. In this case it's Sinn Fein. Somehow telling Leo your problems wouldn't fill you with confidence that he'd help you solve or overcome them. If anything, I think Sinn Fein could actually inspire some of these youngsters.

Re Third Level... It's only in fairly recent years that going on to College became pretty much normalised. For many, many generations it wasn't the done thing at all. From my own decent middle class in my Leaving Cert year probably about 10 out of 50+ students went on to college. (1981)

I live in a rough area and have spent a lot of time looking into the issues of the area (and others like it), how things get improved upon and how things become better and worse over time.

From what I can see, the issue is simply down to Garda and Council inaction. The Gardai are useless at the best of times, anyway. The Council are the ones who can really solve the issues in areas, were they bothered to do so.

Eviction needs to be a more common and swifter approach to dealing with trouble families, but the issue is that the Council are obligated to provide housing. I know personally of a woman who was re-housed FIVE times due to her destroying the houses and not paying rent. When I see things like that, i can understand why the council often feel like they're simply better off not bothering.


What I've suggested in the past, and I still think is a good idea, is to do the whole "Scum Village" thing, and use that as a punishment. We know the government can't let you starve to death on the streets, so my thinking was that if you built a large housing estate somewhere rural, and built the houses to as minimum a standard as is legally required, you could use that as a location to move the scumbags.

Make it an area where council services are minimised (waste collections, litter picking, house maintenance, etc. all pulled back on). Let's say for argument sake, you place it in Offaly - for every family that Louth, Meath, Dublin, Cavan, etc. send into the scum village, Offaly gets a payment from Govt level to put up with the scum, making it financially worthwhile for them.

Invest in a better garda station and create a dedicated policing unit for this area. This way the Council can swiftly evict trouble families, but also offer them housing elsewhere. They get to tick all their boxes of keeping things above board and legal, if the scumbag family wants to move to the scum village they can do so, or alternatively, they can opt for homelessness. The council have themselves covered and, more importantly, once you have a good few of these families move into the sh/thole, it serves as a legitimate warning to others that you can, and will, be punished for acting up and destroying your neighbourhood.



Alternatively, what tends to work is to re-design existing estates to try and create smaller pockets of communities. Cul-de-sac streets, use infill housing to create smaller areas within areas, etc. people tend to have a greater sense of pride when they're not in a house estate that's 500 houses strong and relies on the local council to babysit it.

Raconteuse

I'd say it's quite irksome when some clueless sheltered middle-class folk lecture those who actually have to live in areas with a lot of anti social problems.

Dorakman

Raconteuse wrote: »

I'd say it's quite irksome when some clueless sheltered middle-class folk lecture those who actually have to live in areas with a lot of anti social problems.

Do as I say, not as I do.

Kermit.de.frog

NuttyMcNutty wrote: »

I grew up in Ballymun since I was 7 years old, 47 now. I finished school, failed LC, done course, got a good job and guess where I bought my house, yes Ballymun. Feel safer there than I would anywhere else. Bad eggs everywhere, not just council estates.

How do you know if you have never lived anywhere else?

Not every part of these areas are bad btw. It's a pity they get tarnished by a minority of genuine bad areas.

James Brown

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

The ones that people pay their 30 euro a week rent from their dole.

Or the ones that just don't pay and that's why their is 30 million in rent arrears owed to DCC with no evictions.

Take your pick.

How can you have rent or rent arrears on a free house?
Also should we put them up in the Gresham or private apartments instead?

James Brown

Maewyn Succat wrote: »

If you have a family where nobody in the family works for a couple of generations where does the money come from to pay for the house they live in?

A few flawes here. I mean if you genuinely would like an end to rent arrears and foreva homes at least be realistic.

It is very unlikely that such families exist. Each individual would need explain and prove why the can't work on a case by case basis.
Each housing list applicant needs do same.

So, you need look at the policies and criteria followed and policed, (poorly or not) by the LA's and state if you have any issues.

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

What happens when the local authority tenants stop paying the rent?

"Evict the trouble makers" or do you just not bother reading comments, fully?

Feisar

Feisar wrote: »

These two things are not linked in the way you seem to think they are. The price of goods and services is not based on one's ability to pay.

HAP and rent are not linked? Are you seriously saying that a government funded minimum does not interfere with the market?

FixitFelix

FixitFelix wrote: »

TUSLA is going to be the next be scandal in Ireland.

Do share your inside and verifiable knowledge please?

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I live in a rough area and have spent a lot of time looking into the issues of the area (and others like it), how things get improved upon and how things become better and worse over time.

From what I can see, the issue is simply down to Garda and Council inaction. The Gardai are useless at the best of times, anyway. The Council are the ones who can really solve the issues in areas, were they bothered to do so.

Eviction needs to be a more common and swifter approach to dealing with trouble families, but the issue is that the Council are obligated to provide housing. I know personally of a woman who was re-housed FIVE times due to her destroying the houses and not paying rent. When I see things like that, i can understand why the council often feel like they're simply better off not bothering.


What I've suggested in the past, and I still think is a good idea, is to do the whole "Scum Village" thing, and use that as a punishment. We know the government can't let you starve to death on the streets, so my thinking was that if you built a large housing estate somewhere rural, and built the houses to as minimum a standard as is legally required, you could use that as a location to move the scumbags.

Make it an area where council services are minimised (waste collections, litter picking, house maintenance, etc. all pulled back on). Let's say for argument sake, you place it in Offaly - for every family that Louth, Meath, Dublin, Cavan, etc. send into the scum village, Offaly gets a payment from Govt level to put up with the scum, making it financially worthwhile for them.

Invest in a better garda station and create a dedicated policing unit for this area. This way the Council can swiftly evict trouble families, but also offer them housing elsewhere. They get to tick all their boxes of keeping things above board and legal, if the scumbag family wants to move to the scum village they can do so, or alternatively, they can opt for homelessness. The council have themselves covered and, more importantly, once you have a good few of these families move into the sh/thole, it serves as a legitimate warning to others that you can, and will, be punished for acting up and destroying your neighbourhood.



Alternatively, what tends to work is to re-design existing estates to try and create smaller pockets of communities. Cul-de-sac streets, use infill housing to create smaller areas within areas, etc. people tend to have a greater sense of pride when they're not in a house estate that's 500 houses strong and relies on the local council to babysit it.

In relation to Gardaí, there is really only so much they can do when they spend time in court, only to see Anto with 150 previous convictions get the probation act.
As to the rest, you want penal colonies again?
What kind of scum are sent here? The kind that cause social disturbance or those who commit white collar crime?

Mad_maxx

Deleted User wrote: »

I live in a rough area and have spent a lot of time looking into the issues of the area (and others like it), how things get improved upon and how things become better and worse over time.

From what I can see, the issue is simply down to Garda and Council inaction. The Gardai are useless at the best of times, anyway. The Council are the ones who can really solve the issues in areas, were they bothered to do so.

Eviction needs to be a more common and swifter approach to dealing with trouble families, but the issue is that the Council are obligated to provide housing. I know personally of a woman who was re-housed FIVE times due to her destroying the houses and not paying rent. When I see things like that, i can understand why the council often feel like they're simply better off not bothering.


What I've suggested in the past, and I still think is a good idea, is to do the whole "Scum Village" thing, and use that as a punishment. We know the government can't let you starve to death on the streets, so my thinking was that if you built a large housing estate somewhere rural, and built the houses to as minimum a standard as is legally required, you could use that as a location to move the scumbags.

Make it an area where council services are minimised (waste collections, litter picking, house maintenance, etc. all pulled back on). Let's say for argument sake, you place it in Offaly - for every family that Louth, Meath, Dublin, Cavan, etc. send into the scum village, Offaly gets a payment from Govt level to put up with the scum, making it financially worthwhile for them.

Invest in a better garda station and create a dedicated policing unit for this area. This way the Council can swiftly evict trouble families, but also offer them housing elsewhere. They get to tick all their boxes of keeping things above board and legal, if the scumbag family wants to move to the scum village they can do so, or alternatively, they can opt for homelessness. The council have themselves covered and, more importantly, once you have a good few of these families move into the sh/thole, it serves as a legitimate warning to others that you can, and will, be punished for acting up and destroying your neighbourhood.



Alternatively, what tends to work is to re-design existing estates to try and create smaller pockets of communities. Cul-de-sac streets, use infill housing to create smaller areas within areas, etc. people tend to have a greater sense of pride when they're not in a house estate that's 500 houses strong and relies on the local council to babysit it.

"scum Village"

"evictions"


RTE would have a canary

Mad_maxx

Deleted User wrote: »

"Evict the trouble makers" or do you just not bother reading comments, fully?

What about non payers?

Under HAP ( which you castigate), the private landlord is the only one on the hook if a tenant goes rogue, embark on a mass building of social housing and it's the tax payer carrying the deadbeat tenants

Eric Cartman

Raconteuse wrote: »

I'd say it's quite irksome when some clueless sheltered middle-class folk lecture those who actually have to live in areas with a lot of anti social problems.

I don't think its that, I think where you grow up you perceive as normal and not that bad. Somebody who grew up in ballymun might say 'ahh it has its problems' but the stuff your mind lets slide does not make it good or ok.

Where I grew up
- never a garda car around at any neighbours house in the estate that I can recall
- no burned out cars, joyriding, kids on horses, sulky races
- no security guard in the local shop
- kids could leave bikes unlocked outside a shop and they wouldnt move
- never once as a child saw a drug addict, evidence of drug use or any passed out people
- very little litter anywhere, never any empty bottles or cans about the place
- it was big news in school when i was about 12-13 that the garda helicopter was flying over the area because none of us could ever recall it happening.

literally the absolute worst worst thing I could think of or the worst area growing up was a group of kids on bikes in a council estate that would throw stones at other kids on bikes not from that estate that cycled by it. thats absolutely the worst thing we saw. Thats 'not a bad area'

I couldnt remember anyone in school whos dad didnt work or wasnt around. As we got older we realised a few peoples parents were moderate alcoholics but that was it.


The problems with ballymun darndale etc... is in order of severity

intergenerational welfare dependence
laziness
a lack of personal responsibility
lack of positive male role models
drugs
a distrust of the gardai and reluctance to report incidents
too much free time among children
alcohol
no focus on eductation
gambling
not seeing college or a career as something to work to, not instilled by parents to do better

Fred Cryton

Dorakman wrote: »

Was it government policy or something else?

The people. The low quality of the people are to blame. Everything else is excuses. And of course now they and their offspring are now voting SF in order to lash out at everyone else.

James Brown

Fred Cryton wrote: »

The people. The low quality of the people are to blame. Everything else is excuses. And of course now they and their offspring are now voting SF in order to lash out at everyone else.

Suddenly like right? If I were in my foreva home, choosing not to work on the dole, why on earth would I rock the boat?

You get low quality people in every corner and class in the country.

Jinglejangle69

Bowie wrote: »

Suddenly like right? If I were in my foreva home, choosing not to work on the dole, why on earth would I rock the boat?

You get low quality people in every corner and class in the country.

Because they are NEVER happy no matter what is given to them for nothing.

Always have to have a moan about how they are hard done by the government.

I suppose when you have nothing else to do with your time all you have is a good bitch and moan.

You know the type I'm on about.

Pushing prams drinking coffee all day whining about da gubberment and how Anto is a prick and how its someone else's fault they made bad choices and couldn't keep their legs closed

Eric Cartman

Bowie wrote: »

Suddenly like right? If I were in my foreva home, choosing not to work on the dole, why on earth would I rock the boat?

You get low quality people in every corner and class in the country.

dont dicipline their kids
kids commit crimes
the same people who blame the government because 'theres not enough for the kids to do around here' 'they wouldn't be doing this if there was a playground / swimming pool' are the same people claiming for exaggerated injuries in playgrounds and swimming pools to get extra cash.

Chris_Heilong

Lots of unemployed young familys being put together from what I remember growing up not too far from Darndale, very depressing also.

NuttyMcNutty

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

How do you know if you have never lived anywhere else? - Up until 7 lived in Darndale and Finglas but prob wouldn't have noticed at that age

Not every part of these areas are bad btw. It's a pity they get tarnished by a minority of genuine bad areas.

Agreed

James Brown

Jinglejangle69 wrote: »

Because they are NEVER happy no matter what is given to them for nothing.

Always have to have a moan about how they are hard done by the government.

I suppose when you have nothing else to do with your time all you have is a good bitch and moan.

You know the type I'm on about.

Pushing prams drinking coffee all day whining about da gubberment and how Anto is a prick and how its someone else's fault they made bad choices and couldn't keep their legs closed

Your comment is pure nonsense.
You do more moaning than any. Can you link to one post on here or one politician fighting to get more money for people who don't want to work? It's a false narrative used to turn people against people rather than the policy makers. It's tired and dishonest.

James Brown

Eric Cartman wrote: »

dont dicipline their kids
kids commit crimes
the same people who blame the government because 'theres not enough for the kids to do around here' 'they wouldn't be doing this if there was a playground / swimming pool' are the same people claiming for exaggerated injuries in playgrounds and swimming pools to get extra cash.

That's not true.
We had a football pitch and playgrounds. The housing estate next door had zero and complained there was nothing for the kids and there wasn't. Still isn't. Should they not raise such issues?
You have this idea the nations ills all boil down to 'these people'. It's hearsay and anecdotes.

Thelonious Monk

Bowie wrote: »

That's not true.
We had a football pitch and playgrounds. The housing estate next door had zero and complained there was nothing for the kids and there wasn't. Still isn't. Should they not raise such issues?
You have this idea the nations ills all boil down to 'these people'. It's hearsay and anecdotes.

In fairness what Irish kids did have any facilities growing up? I went to a school that didn't have a hall, drinking water, or even one cubicle in the whole place with a lock on the door. I was discussing this with a mate who was in my class and neither of us shat once at school for 6 years of secondary!
None of us grew up with outdoor swimming pools and mountain bike trails like they have in Germany etc.
What I did have is good parents, both from very modest backgrounds but had a good work ethic and strong morals.
So it's down to the people, and lack of intelligence if you ask me, and there seems to be a lot of irresponsible morons in Ireland.

twowheelsonly

Eric Cartman wrote: »

dont dicipline their kids
kids commit crimes
the same people who blame the government because 'theres not enough for the kids to do around here' 'they wouldn't be doing this if there was a playground / swimming pool' are the same people claiming for exaggerated injuries in playgrounds and swimming pools to get extra cash.

You need to stand around outside the Civil Courts for a while. I think you'd be genuinely shocked to see who passes through those doors. In the overall scheme of things very few of them are the 'buggy pushing single mothers' that people love to look down on.

vriesmays

problems in areas like Ballymun were the result of poor management and maintenance rather than the policy or the tenants themselves.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0305/1120356-housing/

gormdubhgorm

Raconteuse wrote: »

I'd say it's quite irksome when some clueless sheltered middle-class folk lecture those who actually have to live in areas with a lot of anti social problems.

So you are assuming that those "clueless sheltered middle class" never had experience of being robbed, burgled, or beaten up by those from areas with anti social problems?

Also a working class person would never use the word 'irksome' in a sentence.

suicide_circus

vriesmays wrote: »

problems in areas like Ballymun were the result of poor management and maintenance rather than the policy or the tenants themselves.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0305/1120356-housing/

so who has driven the private housing element out of these development plans?

James Brown

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

In fairness what Irish kids did have any facilities growing up? I went to a school that didn't have a hall, drinking water, or even one cubicle in the whole place with a lock on the door. I was discussing this with a mate who was in my class and neither of us shat once at school for 6 years of secondary!
None of us grew up with outdoor swimming pools and mountain bike trails like they have in Germany etc.
What I did have is good parents, both from very modest backgrounds but had a good work ethic and strong morals.
So it's down to the people, and lack of intelligence if you ask me, and there seems to be a lot of irresponsible morons in Ireland.

I'm pointing out it's okay for people to complain if they feel their kids should have a playground or the like. It's not proof of people who don't want to work never being happy or some sh*te.
I could give you a Monty Python 'The four Yorkshiremen' sketch run for you money I'd imagine
It only takes a few bad families to ruin and entire area.