What went wrong with places like Ballymun, Jobstown, Darndale etc.

James Brown

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So you are assuming that those "clueless sheltered middle class" never had experience of being robbed, burgled, or beaten up by those from areas with anti social problems?

Also a working class person would never use the word 'irksome' in a sentence.

What, you have issue with someone generalising about an entire class of people that aren't 'working class'? :rolleyes:

The problem with providing facilities is that they don't really actually do anything. There was a playground installed near a set of houses in an estate next to mine. It was put in a place that everyone said would cause hassle and grief. Residents said it'd be great to have a playground, but not in this area. It wasn't NIMBYism as such, but there were legitimate issues laid out by residents.

Council ploughed ahead with it, and it immediately became a hangout spot for the scum. Kids couldn't use it, as it was destroyed. Broken glass everywhere, piss all over the place, etc. eventually the whole thing was effectively set on fire.

The council came in and removed it and laid fresh soil and grass seeds where it once was.


We nowadays have a free to use/publicly accessible court that's geared up for football and basketball. It's in bits. Glass bottles broken, graffiti galore. You could never really attempt to use it. Council don't clean it out or maintain it regularly. It's a no-go area.

We got a gym and pool built nearby about a decade ago. On our doorstep. Aura Leisure run it. Council built it, and Aura manage it. It's supposed to be to get the knackers off the streets and give them something to do. The whole idea behind the model is that the centres are in 'deprived' areas and are accessible for the joe soaps of the area. At the moment it's no cheaper than any other gym in the area (which immediately makes it redundant), in fact it's one of the more expensive ones.

However, true to form, this facility that was gonna solve so many social issues is dealing with smashed windows on a weekly basis, break ins, covered with graffiti, broken railings etc. because the people it's supposed to be there to help would rather smash it up. And they know that they will never, ever be caught for doing it.


Treating "anti social behaviour" as a serious issue is the best way to deal with the issue. The collective shrug of the shoulders from the Council, Gardai, etc. is what causes a lot of it.

Mad_maxx

Mad_maxx wrote: »

"scum Village"

"evictions"

RTE would have a canary

RTE can act up all day long. Go around door to door and ask the decent, working people if they'd like this idea and I bet you'll get a massive thumbs up.

SEPT 23 1989

They broke up big extended families in the inner city and sent them out to estates in the middle of the then countryside with not even a few shops

No older family members to give young ones a clip around the ear

vriesmays

They're still doing that except it's to apartments.

SEPT 23 1989

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

They broke up big extended families in the inner city and sent them out to estates in the middle of the then countryside with not even a few shops

No older family members to give young ones a clip around the ear

That's not entirely true. I live in an area that has no shortage of products and services within arms reach. I can count 3 'convenience stores' (like centra) within a 5 minute walk of my house.


We have 3 schools, swimming pool, gym, church, library etc. etc. you get the idea. We also have families with older people there (not just parents, but older siblings) and the same carry on still goes on by the anti social elements.


It's legitimately generation from some of the families and I do observe our travelling counterparts cause a lot of grief. We have two traveller families in my estate and although they dont interact with each other, they both cause their own never ending spiral of problems.


Yet they have every amenity you could ever want, and older siblings etc. (and it's not just the travellers causing the grief, but they're just an example).

SEPT 23 1989

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's not entirely true. I live in an area that has no shortage of products and services within arms reach. I can count 3 'convenience stores' (like centra) within a 5 minute walk of my house.


We have 3 schools, swimming pool, gym, church, library etc. etc. you get the idea. We also have families with older people there (not just parents, but older siblings) and the same carry on still goes on by the anti social elements.


It's legitimately generation from some of the families and I do observe our travelling counterparts cause a lot of grief. We have two traveller families in my estate and although they dont interact with each other, they both cause their own never ending spiral of problems.


Yet they have every amenity you could ever want, and older siblings etc. (and it's not just the travellers causing the grief, but they're just an example).

Did they have all those things were they were dumped out in villages on the outskirts of Dublin county in the 60's and 70's

I am not making excuses for knackerism

but the powers that be made serious mistakes with the tenement clear outs

vriesmays

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

but the powers that be made serious mistakes with the tenement clear outs

They should have been dispersed around the country.

Mad_maxx

Deleted User wrote: »

RTE can act up all day long. Go around door to door and ask the decent, working people if they'd like this idea and I bet you'll get a massive thumbs up.

Politicians fear the media and chattering classes which number in the hundreds far more than hundreds of thousands of voters

Raconteuse

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

So you are assuming that those "clueless sheltered middle class" never had experience of being robbed, burgled, or beaten up by those from areas with anti social problems?

Also a working class person would never use the word 'irksome' in a sentence.

People are interpreting what I'm saying backwards.

I'm referring to people who make excuses for the criminal/anti social/intimidating behaviour - citing no facilities, no opportunities, state agencies being at fault etc. Instead of the scumbags being scumbags. Because most people who grow up in environments lacking facilities/opportunities don't become scumbags. And it's very easy to say "give the scumbags a chance" when you don't have to live in close proximity to them.

dd973

Someone once said to me that the Dublin underclass are largely descended from famine people who fled into the city looking for opportunities, food, housing etc and rather like the Irish Liverpool settlers who never made it to the New World these people didn't get further than Dublin, makes sense this theory when you think about how the Dublin of it's time was effectively a British Protestant city in essence regarding it's institutions and make up.

There's something a bit anomalous about them in terms of surnames and appearance as well, I find it hard to think about Working Class/Underclass Dubs as being as quintessentially 'Irish' as country folk or even middle class urbanised Irish people.

Salvadoor

dd973 wrote: »

Someone once said to me that the Dublin underclass are largely descended from famine people who fled into the city looking for opportunities, food, housing etc and rather like the Irish Liverpool settlers who never made it to the New World these people didn't get further than Dublin, makes sense this theory when you think about how the Dublin of it's time was effectively a British Protestant city in essence regarding it's institutions and make up.

There's something a bit anomalous about them in terms of surnames and appearance as well, I find it hard to think about Working Class/Underclass Dubs as being as quintessentially 'Irish' as country folk or even middle class urbanised Irish people.

they are a unique class

dd973

dd973 wrote: »

Someone once said to me that the Dublin underclass are largely descended from famine people who fled into the city looking for opportunities, food, housing etc and rather like the Irish Liverpool settlers who never made it to the New World these people didn't get further than Dublin, makes sense this theory when you think about how the Dublin of it's time was effectively a British Protestant city in essence regarding it's institutions and make up.

Ah, so it was the Brits that set the playground on fire. :P




There's no 'historical' aspect to it. Teenagers today were brought up with a welfare state that catered to their needs. They didn't starve or have to drag themselves up through the streets. They choose to be scumbags.


I'm 32. I don't even remember the 'troubles'. It's too easy to blame historical stuff on current day problems. I grew up in a very rough area and although I won't be rich anytime soon, I've my own little self employed business and I keep my house clean and tidy.


For clarity, this thread is about scumbags. For example, many of my friends, although they may never have worked a day in their lives, and sit around doing nothing all day but feed off the state, still aren't scumbags. They don't actively participate in being a nuisance to others. They don't kick doors, light fires, joyride, have scramblers, play loud music, break windows, etc.


There are a section of people who do all of the above. And none of those actions have repercussions from any government bodies. That is, in my opinion, where the blame lies.

JustAThought

there are also no repurcussions for choosing to never work - yet they are fed, given a house, e800/1000 a month to spend, their children are uniformed/schooled/supported and all the extras that taxpayers work to provide are festooned upon them and the great handout society the social welfare exceptional needs grant and the vincent de paul are there no questions asked or judgments to hand out whatever extras they demand. Thats whats gine wrong for starters. In other countries people have to work for what they demand ir expect and there is s 4 year cap on social welfare and using a child as an excuse for being a social paracite and lifelong social welfare sponge. which is what most of these places are filled with. now throw in nixers, unwillingness to take personal or community responsibility and the handout attitude of entitlement and ‘de gobberment should do i’ attitudes and you have your slum. Now add intergenerational social welfare spongers and the ‘ i want to live beside my mammy’ next generations and you have your ghetto - which is exactly what most of these places are , who they are populated by and what they suffer from. Add alcohol and drugs and a contempt for law and the responsibilities and duties of civil society and you are complete.

Deebles McBeebles

vriesmays wrote: »

problems in areas like Ballymun were the result of poor management and maintenance rather than the policy or the tenants themselves.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/0305/1120356-housing/

Poor management didn't cause the issues there. Lack of personal responsibility did. Of course RTE would be in no position to preach about personal responsibility.

James Brown

Deleted User wrote: »

That's not entirely true. I live in an area that has no shortage of products and services within arms reach. I can count 3 'convenience stores' (like centra) within a 5 minute walk of my house.

...

He's likely talking about Ballymun and Tallaght were this certainly was the case.
Even some inner city areas lacked amenities. You take people from communities and put them in tower blocks on a concrete landscape with no amenities you get problems.

James Brown

Raconteuse wrote: »

People are interpreting what I'm saying backwards.

I'm referring to people who make excuses for the criminal/anti social/intimidating behaviour - citing no facilities, no opportunities, state agencies being at fault etc. Instead of the scumbags being scumbags. Because most people who grow up in environments lacking facilities/opportunities don't become scumbags. And it's very easy to say "give the scumbags a chance" when you don't have to live in close proximity to them.

You are confusing explaining 'why?' with defending. Pointless to just give out about something without looking into why. People don't en masse decide to live in a drug riddled estate with pissy lifts and anti-social behaviour. They don't enjoy it or seek it out.

suicide_circus wrote: »

so who has driven the private housing element out of these development plans?

By private housing element you mean private property available to be rented by the tax payer. They are building to rent out and few can afford to buy what there is.

James Brown

dd973 wrote: »

Someone once said to me that the Dublin underclass are largely descended from famine people who fled into the city looking for opportunities, food, housing etc and rather like the Irish Liverpool settlers who never made it to the New World these people didn't get further than Dublin, makes sense this theory when you think about how the Dublin of it's time was effectively a British Protestant city in essence regarding it's institutions and make up.

There's something a bit anomalous about them in terms of surnames and appearance as well, I find it hard to think about Working Class/Underclass Dubs as being as quintessentially 'Irish' as country folk or even middle class urbanised Irish people.

Don't pull at that thread as regards our betters, the political dynasties and landed gentry.
Also Dubs' are from all over. I'm a Dub and one side of the family are from Wexford a ways back and the other from Belfast/scotland and my surname is... as Irish as you can get, no Fitz or Gerald in it

gormdubhgorm

It is much easier to succeed if there is a culture and environment of improvement, and a general level of ambition from those in the nicer areas of Dublin. Also there is likely to be at least some money to support an individual from a middle class demographic and up.

Anyone who I have ever met from so-called dodgy areas who has done well, has had a real drive and determination to do well.Such a drive is needed to get out of the negative cycle and environment.
Because it is much harder work. And an individual will more than likely chose a different path to thier family/peers.

In stark contrast there are people in leafy well-to-do suburbs privately educated and given every chance in the world. There are examples and a solid culture of role models all around them. The demonstration of the link between education and wealth. Even if an individual is of average intelligence from these well-to-do areas they can do well. Given a job because of social contacts or family contacts and so on.

If there is some tragedy/problem in the working class areas it is much harder to fix. The safety net is not the same whatsoever. The culture is to marry/have kids young and leave school early. Leading to a likelihood of less stability. Also, there is more likelihood of larger families than those in the leafy suburbs (as they are called) - adding further issues. Population, poverty, lack of parental control etc.

In one of the places mentioned by the OP - Jobstown, there is an example of what I am talking about. Nearly two years ago a fella called Adam Muldoon from Jobstown (with Cerebral Palsy and who was homeless) was bludgeoned to death. Stabbed over 100 times. Horrific stuff.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/crime/tragic-homeless-man-adam-muldoon-12784837

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/boy-17-charged-with-murder-of-adam-muldoon-in-tallaght-1.3542923

The fella who killed Muldoon, was a drugged up fresh-faced 17 year old from the same area.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/pictured-teen-facing-trial-for-park-murder-of-man-with-disability-37345235.html

Muldoon (a nice quiet fella by all accounts) had a hard life his mother killed herself when he was just 13. Then he ended up in foster care. Added with the CP life was always going to be difficult for him.

The local community set up 'a go fund me page' to pay for his funeral costs. Others in the community let him sleep in thier old cars in the past. Which is all well and good, but where was the real help for him earlier in his life? Where was the safety net? Family support, guidance and so on?

If Adam Muldoon had the same misfortune in life but was born in a nicer part of Dublin (with a different culture and environment) would he be still alive?
Would he be doing well for himself now?

I know people with CP in professional jobs. Because people with CP or any physical disability are never going to be able to work at physical manual labour, Brickie or Fireman etc. Further education is the only way 'out' to get a decent job for people with a physical disability.

You can be damn sure there would be a much better chance for Adam Muldoon and people like him, would have done far better, if they were in better postcode from the start. No way would it have ended the same.

One of Adam Muldoon's friends wrote a heartbreaking line

https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/tallaght-body-adam-muldoon-tributes-12777931

"I told u Tallaght wasn't for you."
(The same woman was quoted in more detail below)

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/youth-held-after-homeless-man-with-cerebral-palsy-is-stabbed-up-to-150-times-37045112.html


Tallaght wasn't for him. Adam was innocent and people took advantage of him. Now look at what has happened,"

"We started looking after Adam 10 years ago after his mother had died. He had cerebral palsy and couldn't walk properly.

"Yet youths would mug him, shave his head and shave rude images like penises into the hair on the back of his head, where he couldn't see it.

"He had a very tough childhood. There were times he used to sleep in an abandoned car, but someone burned that out."

---

Would Adam Muldoon have got the same treatment from local youths in a nicer area? It is at least less likely in my opinion. He would have been minded, and helped more.


That to me is what is wrong in places like Ballymun, Jobstown, Darndale etc
Problems are much harder to fix and avoid. Those in trouble, or those who have any problems / vulnerability are more likely to get into deeper trouble, or deeper problems, than those from elsewhere.

Eric Cartman

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

Poor management didn't cause the issues there. Lack of personal responsibility did. Of course RTE would be in no position to preach about personal responsibility.

Always love that logic , the lift broke down and they didnt pick up the bins enough....and that joe is why my little anto is inside for the next 8 years for being caught in a stolen car with 20 grand worth of heroin.

Jinglejangle69

JustAThought wrote: »

there are also no repurcussions for choosing to never work - yet they are fed, given a house, e800/1000 a month to spend, their children are uniformed/schooled/supported and all the extras that taxpayers work to provide are festooned upon them and the great handout society the social welfare exceptional needs grant and the vincent de paul are there no questions asked or judgments to hand out whatever extras they demand. Thats whats gine wrong for starters. In other countries people have to work for what they demand ir expect and there is s 4 year cap on social welfare and using a child as an excuse for being a social paracite and lifelong social welfare sponge. which is what most of these places are filled with. now throw in nixers, unwillingness to take personal or community responsibility and the handout attitude of entitlement and ‘de gobberment should do i’ attitudes and you have your slum. Now add intergenerational social welfare spongers and the ‘ i want to live beside my mammy’ next generations and you have your ghetto - which is exactly what most of these places are , who they are populated by and what they suffer from. Add alcohol and drugs and a contempt for law and the responsibilities and duties of civil society and you are complete.

And yet every day we're told the most vulnerable atebt looked after and the gap between the rich and the poor is huge and the government don't care about the people rabble rabble.

These people get so much they are like spoiled kids who can't see how lucky they actually are.

0127647

I do chuckle at the nonsense that these areas lack amenities. Really this is just a glib phrase to excuse the fact parents in these areas are too lazy/useless to properly manage the raising of their kids and generally blame everything on "Da Guberment"

Darndale has had football clubs, a fishing lake and horse stables ffs and has boatloads of activities as is expected in a capital city.
These places always have the obligatory boxing club where the kids are taught violence is the way to get your frustrations out.

Talk to some kid living in Clare or Roscommon who would be lucky to have a field close by and will get by kicking a ball about

Bowie

Bowie wrote: »

You are confusing explaining 'why?' with defending. Pointless to just give out about something without looking into why. People don't en masse decide to live in a drug riddled estate with pissy lifts and anti-social behaviour. They don't enjoy it or seek it out.

What I'm saying is, is that if lack of amenities was a valid excuse, then you might understand why Ballymun had trouble if it was like that in the past, but it doesn't explain why, for example, Darndale has serious issues in the year 2020.

Eric Cartman

0127647 wrote: »

I do chuckle at the nonsense that these areas lack amenities. Really this is just a glib phrase to excuse the fact parents in these areas are too lazy/useless to properly manage the raising of their kids and generally blame everything on "Da Guberment"

Darndale has had football clubs, a fishing lake and horse stables ffs and has boatloads of activities as is expected in a capital city.
These places always have the obligatory boxing club where the kids are taught violence is the way to get your frustrations out.

Talk to some kid living in Clare or Roscommon who would be lucky to have a field close by and will get by kicking a ball about

why arent all the kids in rural ireland getting into crime and drug dealing and making the countryside a hell hole like darndale.

Dyr

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

It is much easier to succeed if there is a culture and environment of improvement, and a general level of ambition from those in the nicer areas of Dublin. Also there is likely to be at least some money to support an individual from a middle class demographic and up.

Anyone who I have ever met from so-called dodgy areas who has done well, has had a real drive and determination to do well.Such a drive is needed to get out of the negative cycle and environment.
Because it is much harder work. And an individual will more than likely chose a different path to thier family/peers.

Absolute bollox.

Grew up in the flats, only reason I did "well" for myself was because I managed to get public/private funded training through a government initiative for disadvantaged areas that gave me access to a decent paid profession. Other than that I'd still be humping in the dead end jobs I started out in.

I know one large family who grew up here where some of the kids became qualified professionals with succesful practices and some others became junkies. Only difference was the ones who made it never got involved with druggie social groups.

Reality is, if your parents were relatively well off then you had access to advantages you're not even aware of, that others did not. F**k all to do with innate drive.

Dorakman

Bowie wrote: »

He's likely talking about Ballymun and Tallaght were this certainly was the case.
Even some inner city areas lacked amenities. You take people from communities and put them in tower blocks on a concrete landscape with no amenities you get problems.

I’m sure the reason that these drug-riddled, unemployed areas are such hellholes is because “the childer” have nowhere to play football. Pull the other one will you?

Eric Cartman

Bambi wrote: »

Absolute bollox.

Grew up in the flats, only reason I did "well" for myself was because I managed to get public/private funded training through a government initiative for disadvantaged areas that gave me access to a decent paid profession. Other than that I'd still be humping in the dead end jobs I started out in.

I know one large family who grew up here where some of the kids became qualified professionals with succesful practices and some others became junkies. Only difference was the ones who made it never got involved with druggie social groups.

Reality is, if your parents were relatively well off then you had access to advantages you're not even aware of, that others did not. F**k all to do with innate drive.

you had access to funding that others didn't , your area gave you an advantage. But youre entire statement just proves what most of us have been saying, not being around scum improves your life chances. Nothing to do with football pitches or whatnot , the thing that keeps social tenants from achieving is other social tenants.

Thelonious Monk

gormdubhgorm wrote: »

Adam Muldoon

Jesus that's horrific, I don't remember this happening. Doesn't look like anyone was ever prosecuted for it either.

gormdubhgorm

Bambi wrote: »

Absolute bollox.

Grew up in the flats, only reason I did "well" for myself was because I managed to get public/private funded training through a government initiative for disadvantaged areas that gave me access to a decent paid profession. Other than that I'd still be humping in the dead end jobs I started out in.

I know one large family who grew up here where some of the kids became qualified professionals with succesful practices and some others became junkies. Only difference was the ones who made it never got involved with druggie social groups.

Reality is, if your parents were relatively well off then you had access to advantages you're not even aware of, that others did not. F**k all to do with innate drive.

I think it has to with drive and the basic knowledge and cop on to stay clear of drugs and improve your education. Rather than have the mindset that drugs are a great buzz, and education is a waste of time.

To say that working class areas are not aware of the advantages is a cop out. That is why DEIS schools were set up in disadvantaged areas to try and provide support (a leg up) and so on.
There are third level access programs for those from disadvantaged areas as well. Are you telling me that disadvantaged schools do not have career guidance teachers or something?

Also even if someone does a CE scheme doing training/courses is encouraged. There are groups that help people search for employment/training with CV's etc like the Northside Partnership LES. Any Intreo office would direct people to those type of places.
To say that people from disadvantaged areas are 'not aware' of such places is a cop out. The help is there people just have to want to ask for it - like you did.
To want to stay clear of the druggie groups like you did, and what the successful people you know from your area did.

gormdubhgorm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Jesus that's horrific, I don't remember this happening. Doesn't look like anyone was ever prosecuted for it either.

Philip Dunbar from Glenshane Tallaght was charged (could be named when he turned 18).

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/pictured-teen-facing-trial-for-park-murder-of-man-with-disability-37345235.html

But it does not seem that there was an outcome of any trial, as yet anyway.

The Adam Muldoon murder happened on June 25th of 2018.

A quick internet search shows that Dunbar 'snapped' awhile before that.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/teen-drink-driver-crashed-on-way-to-mothers-grave-886681.html

On August 21, 2017, Dunbar decided to drive a car drunk, unlicensed and not insured. The purpose was to visit his mothers grave, on his 17th birthday. He crashed into another driver, puncturing the drivers lung.

At the time the court heard he had four prior convictions. All of them were for road traffic offences, having no licence or insurance and failing to produce documentation in March that year.

I noted this bit of the Irish Examiner article -

"Pleading for leniency, defence counsel Amy Deane told the court her client’s mother had died of an overdose.

At the time of the crash, it was Dunbar’s second birthday without his mother and he was visiting her grave. The court heard he left school at 14.

--

Philip Dunbar's mother appears to have been, Bridget Dunbar (as listed on RIP.ie). The name and date of death seem to correlate to the Irish Examiner story it happened April 30th 2016 - son Philip is mentioned. That would mean two of Philip's birthdays were missed by his mother by 21 August 2017 when he went driving to visit her grave.

https://rip.ie/death-notice/bridget-dunbar-tallaght-dublin/287460

From that, I noted the name Mary Dunbar (Mother of Bridget and grandmother of Philip)

A really sad part is that Mary Dunbar appears to have been active in the fight against drugs, in Tallaght. Way back in 1996.

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/tallaght-not-yet-prepared-to-share-in-hope-1.94981

(From the 1996 article)

In Glenshane Drive, they passed a crude chipwood and metal grille look out hut and chatted to Ms Mary Dunbar who has helped staff it since February.

"I don't think the guards have a notion what's going on," said Ms Dunbar. "It's grand to see them in here but I don't think the police is going to stop anything that's going on".

If this is the same family, those words proved to be prophetic.

• Mary Dunbar - involved in the fight against drugs October 12 1996 - feeling the Gardai were powerless to stop the drug epidemic in Tallaght
  
  
• Bridget Dunbar - (Mary's daughter?) overdosed April 30th 2016
  
  
• Philip Dunbar - (Mary's grandson?) - already had four previous convictions by August 21, 2017.
  Went off the rails completely when his mother died, Jailed for five months for drink driving/dangerous driving in when visiting her grave in August 21 2017 - Sentence given on November 2018.
  Charged with the murder of Adam Muldoon on June 25th 2018 - who died of over 100 stab wounds.

Family stability and guidance are crucial. But in disadvantaged areas like Tallaght it becomes much harder because of all the added problems. Adam Muldoon was a victim of circumstance, had cerebral palsy, mother committed suicide. And fell into foster care, then homelessness.

In the end Adam had the misfortune of coming into contact with Philip Dunbar, who also lost a mother. But Dunbar was obviously not only damaged mentally as a result of his loss. Unlike Muldoon, Dunbar was also an angry/dangerous individual.