Picard 1x07 - "Nepenthe" [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

TheValeyard

Deleted User wrote: »

When Mark McManus, the title character in Taggart died, the show continued.

ST Picard could become about his legacy.

Its possible that season two could be the name of a ship called 'Picard'
Continue on his cause or something.

Jaysus, dig his grave already why don't you

pixelburp

It's all fiction, everything is a plot device one way or another; for here I thought the son was a perfectly valid one, executed effectively, enough to give the characters a reluctance to join Picard on his adventure. Emotional support if not logistical. It would have felt more narratively dishonest to have his old crew drop out of their own lives for the sake of their former captain. As if the intervening years meant nothing: that would have been cheaper and a much lazier trope IMO.

I get fans wanted to see the crew back for one last trip, but look at how awkwardly the films tried to ram Worf back onto the bridge, despite having left for DS9. That across the whole crew + the 30 years difference would have been hokey and fake. Dropping in on their lives, seeing how they've lived the intervening years, worked well enough. Knowing Riker and Troi have made loving, good loves - albeit sprinkled with tragedy - is nice to know.

Evade

Thinking a bit more about it dropping in on the Rikers is a fairly reckless move on Picards part. He's dragging them into danger without giving them a choice, he could have gone almost anywhere.

_Kaiser_

Full_Circle_81 wrote: »

What the hell was that clip and how do I see more of it?!

Stargate SG1 did a special comedy episode for their 200th episode (aptly called 200).

I don't want to spoil it but it's definitely worth looking up

Evade

Evade wrote: »

Thinking a bit more about it dropping in on the Rikers is a fairly reckless move on Picards part. He's dragging them into danger without giving them a choice, he could have gone almost anywhere.

Really great point. Why didn't he drop in on a Klingon warrior if being pursued by Romulan secret service. Not a fairly defenceless family unit.

Stark

I like the way on star trek it's a case of "drop me anywhere on the planet, I'll walk the rest of the way"

Rawr

There was one brief moment in this episode I really liked, where everyone was at the Rikers' dinner table discussing Soji's "Home World"

Riker and Picard share a look:

Picard: Thoughts?

Riker: Maddox. Left Earth after the ban, no one could find him for 14 years. Maybe he went to this planet with the two red moons?

That very moment, for the briefest of moments, they weren't in the Riker house. In my head they were very briefly back on the Enterprise D's bridge, with Captain Picard asking Commander Riker for his "Thoughts?"...he was even sitting in the right direction.

I liked that.

...also the Rikers are still enlisted as reserves. Will Captain / Admiral Riker make an appearance? Maybe in a revamped Enterprise E with 3 nacelles, swooping in to save Picard & Co in the finale

TheValeyard

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Jaysus, dig his grave already why don't you

Do you think they still dig graves or just beam you in?

Stark

Do you think they'll bury him in a grave in the vineyard in France or shoot him into space in a torpedo casing?

Stark

Stark wrote: »

Do you think they'll bury him in a grave in the vineyard in France or shoot him into space in a torpedo casing?

They’ll shoot him into the vineyard from space. No casing.

Full_Circle_81

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Stargate SG1 did a special comedy episode for their 200th episode (aptly called 200).

I don't want to spoil it but it's definitely worth looking up

I must have stopped watching the show by then, because I definitely don't remember that one!

AMKC

Full_Circle_81 wrote: »

I must have stopped watching the show by then, because I definitely don't remember that one!

Your not missing out. I remember being so excited to see the 200th episode and then being so disappointed at how bad it was.
I would compare it to the Star Trek Enterprise episode '' These are the Voyages'' which was basically just a late TNG episode on the holodeck.
That was such a disappointing episode.

AMKC

Rawr wrote: »

There was one brief moment in this episode I really liked, where everyone was at the Rikers' dinner table discussing Soji's "Home World"

Riker and Picard share a look:

Picard: Thoughts?

Riker: Maddox. Left Earth after the ban, no one could find him for 14 years. Maybe he went to this planet with the two red moons?

That very moment, for the briefest of moments, they weren't in the Riker house. In my head they were very briefly back on the Enterprise D's bridge, with Captain Picard asking Commander Riker for his "Thoughts?"...he was even sitting in the right direction.

I liked that.

...also the Rikers are still enlisted as reserves. Will Captain / Admiral Riker make an appearance? Maybe in a revamped Enterprise E with 3 nacelles, swooping in to save Picard & Co in the finale

We will pretend you never said that last bit and let you fix it.

To Quote Gene Roddenberry: Starfleet Starships are supposed to have an even number of nacelles and they should be whiten sight of each other be it 2 or 4 nacelles.

Look at aviation today. Its not about how many engines you have its about how they are used. So when once it took a 747 to fly from say the UK to Australia now a 777 and 787 can do it with only 2 engines and far more efficiently as well. How many 3 engine planes are there today. The answer is not many now and the 4 engine plane is on its way out too. Even Airbus has stopped making the A380 and has a long range wide body 2 engine plane now as well that can do what the A380 did better and more efficient.


I think that is why the majority of Starfleet ships only have 2 nacelles although there is a couple of cool 4 nacelles ones as well but that is just more maintenance and things to go wrong on it.

Mollyb60

Did no one find it a bit implausible how quickly Riker worked out what was going on with Soji and Picard? Just from a head tilt? And I thought the Tal Shiar folks were supposed to be a myth? Why would Riker jump straight to them in his theory?

In saying that though, I did really enjoy the episode. Troi and Riker were lovely to see together. I think that seeing them with Picard really made Stewart look his age. He just seemed especially frail this week.

Spear

Mollyb60 wrote: »

And I thought the Tal Shiar folks were supposed to be a myth? Why would Riker jump straight to them in his theory?

The Zhat Vash are regarded as a myth, the Tal Shiar are well known.

pah

Mollyb60 wrote: »

Did no one find it a bit implausible how quickly Riker worked out what was going on with Soji and Picard? Just from a head tilt?

Yes. It was utterly ridiculous.

How can Troi sense emotions from data in TNG when he gets the emotion chip but can sense nothing from soji who is displaying plenty emotion outwardly to everyone?

Who cares? - Next scene :rolleyes:

pah

pah wrote: »

Yes. It was utterly ridiculous.

How can Troi sense emotions from data in TNG when he gets the emotion chip but can sense nothing from soji who is displaying plenty emotion outwardly to everyone?

Who cares? - Next scene :rolleyes:

Also, that was the first time Soji displayed the head tilt.

Mollyb60

Deleted User wrote: »

Also, that was the first time Soji displayed the head tilt.

Yeah even a single scene in a previous episode where she did the tilt would've set it up nicely and given all the viewers a nice 'Ah! She did the Data head tilt thing!' moment. Then it would've been more explicable to have Riker immediately recognise it too and would've been a nice little serotonin boost for the viewers.
As it was he had no prior evidence to go on that she wasn't human, nothing to suspect that she was an android and no reason to believe that's why the Romulans were after her.

Full_Circle_81

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Also, that was the first time Soji displayed the head tilt.

I thought there was a little tilt in one of the scenes back on the cube, but could be mistaken? They made this one super obvious though, maybe to emphasise it for Riker to pick up on.

The Megaphone

Full_Circle_81 wrote: »

They made this one super obvious though

It's a shame it wasn't something more meaningful that triggered the near neck breaking head tilt - an old photo of Data with his cat would have been more satisfying!

Evade

The Megaphone wrote: »

It's a shame it wasn't something more meaningful that triggered the near neck breaking head tilt - an old photo of Data with his cat would have been more satisfying!

Or a cat.

AtomicHorror

I liked this episode, even with what happened to Hugh. I don't much like Space Cersei- and time hasn't improved my view of how that character has been written/depicted. I would like Narek to hang on for Season 2, but his sister could be done away with and I would be entirely fine with that.

Commodore Oh... I think Chabon has given some conflicting responses on what the sunglasses mean, but it would be interesting if she were a Romulan capable of something similar to a mind meld.

Jurati was amazing in this episode. She's becoming one of my favourites- they cast a solid actor for this role. It's demanding stuff but she really makes it work.

The Troi-Rikers were great too. Anyone who would consider Kestra precocious would do well to re-watch Wesley's earlier stuff. She's just got the balance just right as I see it.

Do we think we might hear more about Captain Crandall and the SS Inside Straight? He's been to Qo'noS and Tyken's rift, and he's named his ship for a drawing poker hand that is notoriously unwise to chase, unless you have the right pot odds.

Spear wrote: »

There's an older, weirder throwback in there. Riker refers to having trouble with the Kzinti. That's a reference to a cat like species from The Animated Series.

Yeah, I liked that. There were some plans to properly canonize the Kzinti in season 5 of ENT, but obviously it never happened.

I read somewhere that Chabon wrote to Larry Niven to get his blessing for the reference, which was given.

Mollyb60 wrote: »

Yeah even a single scene in a previous episode where she did the tilt would've set it up nicely and given all the viewers a nice 'Ah! She did the Data head tilt thing!' moment.

She did it during a conversation with Narek, too. When he told her about "Borg rituals". It's possible there were other instances that I missed, but they did set it up several episodes back.

To be fair, it is such a distinctive tick- the sudden tilt and and facial expression- that most Trek fans would recognize it instantly. We got to see at most 100 hours of Data's behavior. Riker worked with him practically all day, every day for 15 years. He knew him far better than we did. So I have no issues with his seeing Data in Soji so easily.

pah wrote: »

How can Troi sense emotions from data in TNG when he gets the emotion chip but can sense nothing from soji who is displaying plenty emotion outwardly to everyone?

Who cares? - Next scene :rolleyes:

Presumably because the way Soji and Data experience or process emotions are different? She's not white with yellow eyes, either. Really not a big deal.

Stark

AtomicHorror wrote: »

pah wrote:

How can Troi sense emotions from data in TNG when he gets the emotion chip but can sense nothing from soji who is displaying plenty emotion outwardly to everyone?

Presumably because the way Soji and Data experience or process emotions are different? She's not white with yellow eyes, either. Really not a big deal.

Big question is why should she able to sense Data's emotions in TNG when there's no biological process behind them? Or why telepath DNA mixed with non-telepath DNA = empath DNA. Or why species from planets hundreds of light years away can interbreed and produce fertile offspring. Does not make them the same species? Or why, why, why ERROR!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6o881n35GU

Evade

Stark wrote: »

Big question is why should she able to sense Data's emotions in TNG when there's no biological process behind them? Or why telepath DNA mixed with non-telepath DNA = empath DNA. Or why species from planets hundreds of light years away can interbreed and produce fertile offspring. Does not make them the same species? Or why, why, why ERROR!!!!!

Well, they are all descended from the same species. But that aside it doesn't matter how implausible the established rules are it's still important when they're applied inconsistently.

AtomicHorror

Stark wrote: »

Big question is why should she able to sense Data's emotions in TNG when there's no biological process behind them? Or why telepath DNA mixed with non-telepath DNA = empath DNA. Or why species from planets hundreds of light years away can interbreed and produce fertile offspring. Does not make them the same species? Or why, why, why ERROR!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6o881n35GU

Well if we're going to go down this rabbit hole, I think we might find just a few more logical and scientific inconsistencies in Star Trek...

Every time Star Trek has done biology, which is my own area of expertise, the writers have committed some fairly heinous crimes against the science. I have to willfully suspend disbelief. So I assume it's a similar situation for physicists, chemists, economists... if they ever show Picard doing his tax returns, I'm sure the Trekkies in Revenue will get upset.

That being said, there have been fewer new crimes against biology since Discovery started airing. Can't speak for the other sciences, of course.

Evade

AtomicHorror wrote: »

So I assume it's a similar situation for physicists, chemists, economists...

You don't even have to go to a specialised field, early TNG writers forgot there are only 360 degrees in a circle.

AtomicHorror

Evade wrote: »

You don't even have to go to a specialised field, early TNG writers forgot there are only 360 degrees in a circle.

I think they made this mistake used the higher resolution heading system ahem in Voyager as well.

AtomicHorror

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Well if we're going to go down this rabbit hole, I think we might find just a few more logical and scientific inconsistencies in Star Trek...

Every time Star Trek has done biology, which is my own area of expertise, the writers have committed some fairly heinous crimes against the science. I have to willfully suspend disbelief. So I assume it's a similar situation for physicists, chemists, economists... if they ever show Picard doing his tax returns, I'm sure the Trekkies in Revenue will get upset.

That being said, there have been fewer new crimes against biology since Discovery started airing. Can't speak for the other sciences, of course.

I work in IT Security and not just star trek but any tv show that shows hacking or IT stuff in general makes a complete dogs dinner of the subject.

AtomicHorror

Deleted User wrote: »

I work in IT Security and not just star trek but any tv show that shows hacking or IT stuff in general makes a complete dogs dinner of the subject.

Ah yes, "hacking". I have just enough background in CS from my degree to cringe at that stuff. For an expert, it must be nauseating.

AtomicHorror

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Ah yes, "hacking". I have just enough background in CS from my degree to cringe at that stuff. For an expert, it must be nauseating.

You get used to it. Its more disappointment at a particular show you like that makes a complete mockery of it thats annoying. A regular programme i enjoy is Spooks, but it has a talent for peeing all over anything hacking related.

NCIS wins the prize for the most preposterous "hacking" scene though.

Evade

Deleted User wrote: »

NCIS wins the prize for the most preposterous "hacking" scene though.

Two agents, one keyboard?

AMKC

What about ''Scorpion''? I tried to like that show but just found some of it terrible.

AMKC

AMKC wrote: »

What about ''Scorpion''? I tried to like that show but just found some of it terrible.

I can't comment as I only made it through one episode and couldn't face anymore.

pah

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Do we think we might hear more about Captain Crandall and the SS Inside Straight? He's been to Qo'noS and Tyken's rift,

I hope not.

I've enjoyed this so far but i didnt really like today's ep

How is the sick bay just down from the main area and nobody noticed maddox
Still can't stand raffi
Getting tired of the "picard ur such an arrogant noob" thing, we get it already
Jurati doing well but thought she'd thrown up the tracker
Troi "i couldn't bear if anything happened to kesha" welp something is definitely going to happen to kesha. I'll prep my shocked pikachu face
Cant stand space cersei
Wonderful seeing troi and riker
Why is everyone ok with the kid telling a stranger who's probably a mysterious liar about this mystery planet and probably why she was asking
Why would picard choose to have that android convo inthe middle of a footpath with an audience. Not the time or place!!

Evade

They're setting up the captain to be just like Riker, Troi will point it out to the kid and she'll lose interest. Or they'll double down and she'll be more interested, we already have Jaime and Cersei Romulan after all.

AtomicHorror

pah wrote: »

I hope not.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJl4_hsJnQA

Fixed your link, but... this is a lousy, lousy video. I don't see the "mistake" in naming Tyken's Rift as a place someone has been to.

And the comments. Yowch. Just a bunch of haters looking for any reason to take a dump on this show.

Evade wrote: »

They're setting up the captain to be just like Riker, Troi will point it out to the kid and she'll lose interest.

Interesting take. My assumption was that Crandall is an ex-Enterprise crew member. Possibly under an assumed name.

Thargor

Why would you need a positronic matrix to cure a genetic disease? And even if you did they're saying in the entire galaxy that heroes of the federation that have literally saved the galaxy and the timeline and reality itself multiple times like Riker and Troi couldn't get their hands on one? Their strategy was to go live on a planet with good soil and eat healthy food? I know its sci-fi but you need to be a bit realistic...

Evade

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Fixed your link, but... this is a lousy, lousy video. I don't see the "mistake" in naming Tyken's Rift as a place someone has been to.

And the comments. Yowch. Just a bunch of haters looking for any reason to take a dump on this show.

It's like saying someone's been to Wormhole. It's a type of anomaly not a specific place.

AtomicHorror

Evade wrote: »

It's like saying someone's been to Wormhole. It's a type of anomaly not a specific place.

No, it's like saying someone's been to the Moon or the Sun. We named the Moon without knowing there was loads of them. Then we discovered about 300 more of them. They're all moons, but only one of them is the Moon.

Tyken discovered a spacetime rift of a type that allows energy to drain from real space into subspace. He had a pretty bad day, but he survived and got to name the anomaly Tyken's Rift. It has a known position. You can go there (carefully).

The Enterprise ran into a new Tyken's Rift, not the Tyken's Rift, but a spacetime rift with the same distinctive characteristics. Presumably this one was not named "Tyken's Rift" after its discovery. Maybe this one was later named Hagan's Rift, or the Brattain Rift. By rights, it should probably be Troi's Rift, since she saved everyone involved.

That's actually not a great name, on reflection.

Evade

Data said "a rare anomaly" when Crusher asked what it was implying it's the name of of the phenomena not a specific place. Maybe it's both but that's just confusing, they even renamed the Moon and the Sun in Star Trek to clear up any confusion there.

AtomicHorror

Thargor wrote: »

Why would you need a positronic matrix to cure a genetic disease?

It's not a genetic disease, it's a silicon-based virus. If it was a genetic disease, it would still make sense to treat a neuro-degenerative disease using a positronic matrix, especially given that genetic modification of humans is banned in the Federation.

Thargor wrote: »

And even if you did they're saying in the entire galaxy that heroes of the federation that have literally saved the galaxy and the timeline and reality itself multiple times like Riker and Troi couldn't get their hands on one? Their strategy was to go live on a planet with good soil and eat healthy food? I know its sci-fi but you need to be a bit realistic...

When was the last time the crew of the Enterprise outright broke Federation law? And to make their own child complicit in that? They did what they hoped was right and it ended in tragedy. Change the details and that's a timeless story of parenthood.

AtomicHorror

Evade wrote: »

Data said "a rare anomaly" when Crusher asked what it was implying it's the name of of the phenomena not a specific place. Maybe it's both but that's just confusing, they even renamed the Moon and the Sun in Star Trek to clear up any confusion there.

And yet in Generations, you can see Tyken's Rift on the map in Stellar Cartography. So maybe they messed up in Generations, but I think we could cut the Picard writers a tiny bit of slack.

I mean, it's not like Tyken's Rift was a hypothetical phenomenon like an Einstein-Rosen Bridge or a Dyson Sphere. Tyken discovered that first specific example out in the wild. It's a place, and a type of anomaly.

I think the writers have been very respectful of the canon. No need to take a dump on them for such grey areas. Space Cersei is a valid target, if anyone really needs one.

tromtipp

AtomicHorror wrote: »

By rights, it should probably be Troi's Rift, since she saved everyone involved.

That's actually not a great name, on reflection.

Particularly given the angle she was filmed from in that last dream sequence.

Evade

AtomicHorror wrote: »

And yet in Generations, you can see Tyken's Rift on the map in Stellar Cartography. So maybe they messed up in Generations, but I think we could cut the Picard writers a tiny bit of slack.

I mean, it's not like Tyken's Rift was a hypothetical phenomenon like an Einstein-Rosen Bridge or a Dyson Sphere. Tyken discovered that first specific example out in the wild. It's a place, and a type of anomaly.

I think the writers have been very respectful of the canon. No need to take a dump on them for such grey areas. Space Cersei is a valid target, if anyone really needs one.

Was it the Tyken's Rift or a Tyken's Rift on the map? How respectful they have been of canon is debatable but dumping on them for making a canon mistake is probably less insulting than dumping on their bad original characters.

AtomicHorror

Evade wrote: »

Was it the Tyken's Rift or a Tyken's Rift on the map? How respectful they have been of canon is debatable but dumping on them for making a canon mistake is probably less insulting than dumping on their bad original characters.

Space Cersei is a bad character. I like the rest, so far.

I'm not concerned by what criticism is insulting, but what is valid or fair.

Evade

AtomicHorror wrote: »

Space Cersei is a bad character. I like the rest, so far.

I'm not concerned by what criticism is insulting, but what is valid or fair.

You like Raffi? Really? And what you think is valid and fair doesn't apply to everyone else. Canon mistakes, characters acting against type, CGI contradicting the script, and awful characters are all valid and fair criticisms ad far as I'm concerned.

AtomicHorror

Evade wrote: »

You like Raffi? Really?

She's certainly not my favourite, but yes.

Evade wrote: »

And what you think is valid and fair doesn't apply to everyone else.

That's a given, but I think I'm in the majority in this instance.

Evade wrote: »

Canon mistakes, characters acting against type, CGI contradicting the script, and awful characters are all valid and fair criticisms ad far as I'm concerned.

I agree with all of those in principle, but the argument about Tyken's Rift is a grey area- even if it is valid, it is minor. If the Romulans suddenly have blue blood next week, I'll be right there with you.

AtomicHorror

And what I mean by "fair" incidentally, is perfectly illustrated by the Tyken's Rift debacle. Nobody trashes Generations because they put that location into the Stellar Cartography scene. But with Picard, the error (if it is one), is enough of an outrage to warrant a dedicated YouTube video and dozens of sneering comments.

I'm merely suggesting the criticism should be consistent, rational and proportional.