Buying the cheapest of the cheap - what to look for

Big Nasty

salonfire wrote: »

Check you have 4G!

You won't have broadband, but check you have data coverage at least

And a daycent pub within walking distance

Yellow_Fern

this kind of project would benefit from extensive reading and experience in traditional materials and modern construction science. read as much as you can

Toyotafanboi

Toyotafanboi, that's a great post. Fair play. In fairness, if you only started getting stuck in 2 years ago, that sounds like fairly rapid progress, all in all. Things like a dirty site or such wouldnt bother me.

My line of thinking was to buy a sh/tehole and work on it over the course of 10 years or so. It'd be a bit different as I already have somewhere to live permanently, whereas it sounded like you were under a little pressure to get moved in the door?

Can I ask what your background is in terms of living; have you been a suburban dweller that moved out to a rural area or where you always kind of outside the urban areas? If you moved from very urban to your more quaint little cottage, how do you find the adjustment?

Sorry for all the questions

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Had ESB moved from surface to underground and connect to mains water and sewage.

Can I ask you roughly what you reckon you spent on this portion of things?

This is the area I fall down. I know the price of a sheet of plasterboard, I know the rough cost of a box of screws, laminate flooring, carpet, tins of paint, windows, rough roofing costs, skimcoat, etc, etc. but the part I quoted is where I just see a load of question marks.

Padre_Pio

I'm looking at something similar to Toyotafanboi.

Sale agreed on a 1960s house, 50sq metres, 4 rooms. Very unloved and let idle for the last 10 years.
Has water and elec, but no septic.

Plan is to do it up, then get planning for a 100sq metre "extension" which in essence is a separate house connected to the existing with a walkway.

The alternative is a semi d in an estate.

Padre_Pio

Padre_Pio wrote: »

The alternative is a semi d in an estate.

I could see that working out a tad more expensive than your standard Semi-D, though? (depending where the Semi-D is located, obviously)?

Padre_Pio

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I could see that working out a tad more expensive than your standard Semi-D, though? (depending where the Semi-D is located, obviously)?

It definitely will, but I can do this over a 5 year period and if property prices dont collapse a la 2008, I will be adding value to the property should I ever need to sell.

Option A: buy a semi d for market rate, live there for 5 -10 years and hopefully trade up to detached house with a garden that may be a few decades old.

Option B: Renovate a cottage for about 50k under the cost of a semi-d. Turn it into a new house with old walls. Build a larger house on the site and link them. Should cost less than a similar size detached house, will be totally new and built for purpose.

Truckermal

A house like that will be a more expensive repetition of your Citroen!

Muahahaha

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I'm looking at something similar to Toyotafanboi.

Sale agreed on a 1960s house, 50sq metres, 4 rooms. Very unloved and let idle for the last 10 years.
Has water and elec, but no septic.

Plan is to do it up, then get planning for a 100sq metre "extension" which in essence is a separate house connected to the existing with a walkway.

The alternative is a semi d in an estate.

Is this possible under planning regs? i.e a putting a 100sqm extension onto a 50sqm house? I thought county councils have some restrictions on how big an extension can be in proportion to the existing house? Stand to be corrected but thought I read that before somewhere, it might differ from council to council too.

caff

Probably want to check for flooding aswell https://www.floodinfo.ie/map/floodmaps/

Padre_Pio

Muahahaha wrote: »

Is this possible under planning regs? i.e a putting a 100sqm extension onto a 50sqm house? I thought county councils have some restrictions on how big an extension can be in proportion to the existing house? Stand to be corrected but thought I read that before somewhere, it might differ from council to council too.

Honestly not sure. 100sqm isn't massive by any stretch. I'd still have a three bed with decent living space by the end of it. You can get 40sqm without planning. I've seen some nice examples of other similar houses. There's a really nice juxtaposition of new and old.

Del2005

Doing a renovation now requires the house to be B2 rated. You'll never get any of the ones in the OP to that level for a reasonable price and the standard is only going to get tougher.

Rural Ireland is a lot different now then it used to be. My parents are both from rural areas and my father always had a dream to move home when he retired. My uncle who ran the family farm got seriously ill and my father had to spend several months looking after the farm. His dream died after that. We now have the farm and family home, the farm is rented and the house is falling apart and will cost way to much to make livable never mind meet current regulations.

OP rent a house in a rural area over winter and see if you want to live there in your old age. Rural Ireland is lovely when the sun shines, it doesn't shine that often.

Muahahaha

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Honestly not sure. 100sqm isn't massive by any stretch. I'd still have a three bed with decent living space by the end of it. You can get 40sqm without planning. I've seen some nice examples of other similar houses. There's a really nice juxtaposition of new and old.

Well if you are sale agreed on the house Id definitely be checking that out with a planner before you get to final contract signing stage. As said Im not 100% but thought I read somewhere before that there is a maximum size extension that a council will grant in proportion to the current building. If that proportion was something like 50% your plan to add 100sqm onto 50sqm would be scuppered. AFAIK the council would see something like that as a whole new building and depending on what county it is then local needs could come into play.

I know in the Wicklow mountains you see a fair few small 50-60sqm derelict stone cottages about like in the OP, some of them in very scenic areas. But no-one seems to be buying them. Ive always presumed this is because they cant be extended to something sizeable enough for a family with kids to live in.

Padre_Pio

I'll ask the question tomorrow. I suppose my argument is the house is almost unlivable in it's current size, so size is necessary to bring it up to a liveable standard and also in keeping with the neighbours.

I'll report back when I get a definite answer.

Toyotafanboi

Deleted User wrote: »

My line of thinking was to buy a sh/tehole and work on it over the course of 10 years or so. It'd be a bit different as I already have somewhere to live permanently, whereas it sounded like you were under a little pressure to get moved in the door?

Can I ask what your background is in terms of living; have you been a suburban dweller that moved out to a rural area or where you always kind of outside the urban areas? If you moved from very urban to your more quaint little cottage, how do you find the adjustment?

Can I ask you roughly what you reckon you spent on this portion of things?

We were out renting but we moved back in with the in laws to do this, so we were living rent free but still under time pressure if you get me :pac: around 4 years total from making the decision, beginning saving to moving in. All work bar the few trades people was done evenings and weekends.

I always lived in town but missus FB was a country girl. Current house is on the outskirts of town, walking distance to most things but still out enough to have a bit of privacy.

I dont remember the exact prices for the connections but most of them water/ waste/ ESB were around a grand each for the admin fee. The cost of getting to the connection is your own though, so if the waste main is 100 meters away, you pay for 100 meters of pipe to be laid, let the irish water people inspect it and then make it all good. Same with the ESB, we done all the groundwork to the pole, ESB just fit the new meter and turn it on.

10 years would be a bit long imo. It does the house no favours being laid idle and coming towards completion I had to move into our house or we could have wired it five times and fitted 3 sets of windows as some ethnic minorities just wouldnt leave the ****ing place be when they knew there was a bit of value inside.

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I'm looking at something similar to Toyotafanboi.

Sale agreed on a 1960s house, 50sq metres, 4 rooms. Very unloved and let idle for the last 10 years.
Has water and elec, but no septic.

Plan is to do it up, then get planning for a 100sq metre "extension" which in essence is a separate house connected to the existing with a walkway.

The alternative is a semi d in an estate.

Keep us updated! What is your budget do you mind me asking? Much of a site with it?

We kept the extension under the planning exemption guidelines but house was a bit bigger than yours from the get go.

If it's an option, it's a good one. Most new estates are a little too hemmed in for me. The houses themselves are usually lovely but most have no front gardens and really minimal back gardens and I like being outside so want a bit of space and was lucky enough to get it.

Muahahaha

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I'll ask the question tomorrow. I suppose my argument is the house is almost unlivable in it's current size, so size is necessary to bring it up to a liveable standard and also in keeping with the neighbours.

I'll report back when I get a definite answer.

Definitely do ask the question as you dont want to find yourself stuck with a 50sqm cottage that cant be extended beyond the extra 40sqm allowed with no planning permission. That would bring it to 90sqm which is a large enough 2 bed but a small 3 bed. It would still be far short of the 150sqm you want.

Probably depends a bit where in the country it is. Some councils like Meath and Wicklow are absolute sticklers on planning. Others are more receptive like Longford or Carlow. But definitely check with a local planner who has experience of submitting planning applications to the council where the property is located. They'll know what is and isnt allowable.

ednwireland

20+ years down the line my house is comfortable but its still got its fair share of problems

when bought it had a tacked on kitchen extension the 4 rooms of the house were in bits, ripped most of it out

built in the late 1800's as far as we can tell.

last couple of years finally got old rooms upstairs refurbed and tarmac

Padre_Pio

Muahahaha wrote: »

Definitely do ask the question as you dont want to find yourself stuck with a 50sqm cottage that cant be extended beyond the extra 40sqm allowed with no planning permission. That would bring it to 90sqm which is a large enough 2 bed but a small 3 bed. It would still be far short of the 150sqm you want.

I can't find any reference to it online anywhere. Only the 40sqm rule.

This is an example of what I'm going for: https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.0980067,-8.0628054,3a,75y,65.65h,89.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-wsyFc_bs7h3xv3zUuSVaQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

EDIT: Looks like they applied for planning twice:
Refused in 2010:

Partial demolition and reconstruction of existing cottage in ruins together with construction of a new two storey dwelling over part basement, provision of a proprietary sewage treatment systeem, a rain water harvesting system, provision of a new vehicular site entrance, associated site works and landscaping and retention of existing pedestrian entrance to roadside boundary

Granted in 2012:

Renovation of existing cottage and construction of a two-storey extension, together with patent wastewater treatment system and associated site works

But that's a good bit more excessive than what I'm after, that's actually a whole new two story house, right on the road.
So it's doable, at least in 2012.

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Keep us updated! What is your budget do you mind me asking? Much of a site with it?

Budget right now is €180k including renovation. House was a touch under 130k, half acre site 25 mins west of Cork city, 5 min drive to the nearest shop and pub and 15 mins from work.
Hopefully I'll start the planning process in about 2 years and I've budgetted another 200k max for the extension which will hopefully be done within 4/5 years.

By then I'll have an new house with old walls as the original, and a new extension, for less than what it would cost for a similar size 1990's or early 2000's house now, all going well.

I might start my Youtube vlogging career doing it up

Yellow_Fern

With learning you can bring down costs. For example my parents did such a project forty years ago. They spent loads pumping in anti rising damp chemicals which I know know was a huge waste of time and money. Another way to save money is to be very clever about windows. Dont add massive windows, especially on the north side of the structure. If there are north facing windows might be worth bricking them up.

twignme

One person's money pit is another's dream home. I have renovated three rural properties of various ages and conditions over the last 25 years, my current one was almost derelict, built around 1900, but still had a good 'skeleton'. They were never done for 'flipping', always to live in myself.
The first thing you need to ask yourself is ...do you like old houses? Living in one is very different to what I imagine you are used to. They are generally a labour of love and continue to be. The property you have shown isn't one I would go for, it's way past resurrecting, but there are plenty of ones that need work to bring up to standard whilst retaining the integrity of the original building that are not quite as derelict as the one you have shown. If it's a place you won't need to live in while it's being worked on, that's great, but if it's too far away from where you currently live the thought of getting up on a weekend to go over and do the sort of jobs you say you are able to do.
Find the right property, and I would say 'go for it'!

ednwireland

one of teh hardest things i find is finding tradesmen who are prepared to work an old houses and more importantly good at it

Deleted User

The only thing to do with them houses in the op is flatten them. Waste of time and money trying to do them up when you could build a vastly better new house.

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't be against that, but ive no idea on the costs of building a typical bungalow in Ireland.


Assuming you have a little site ready to go, how much is a typical 3 bed bungalow going to set you back to build it? 20k? 200k? :o

Depends on the part of the county and if you are willing to do direct labour and manage the build or you want to go the builder route. Pricing is generally per sq foot. Builder prices will be in the 150 to 170sq foot range for a good finish (under floor, air to water etc). I'm personally hoping to get in around the 120 to 125 sq foot with direct labour (house is two story and far bigger than a 3 bed bungalow though so going the builder route isn't possible due to the cost).

Muahahaha

Padre_Pio wrote: »

I can't find any reference to it online anywhere. Only the 40sqm rule.

This is an example of what I'm going for: https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.0980067,-8.0628054,3a,75y,65.65h,89.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-wsyFc_bs7h3xv3zUuSVaQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

EDIT: Looks like they applied for planning twice:
Refused in 2010:

Granted in 2012:
But that's a good bit more excessive than what I'm after, that's actually a whole new two story house, right on the road.
So it's doable, at least in 2012.

Thats good, at least you have some planning history of it. Given they granted in 2012 you should be fine but Id still be checking with a local planning consultant. Aside from the size of it he might make you aware of other considerations/issues you havent yet considered. Even if you've to pay him 200 quid its worth for the peace of mind that are no surprises after you've completed the sale and there is no comeback. Same goes for pre-purchase and structural surverys, they're peace of mind that you're not buying a money sink.

Not sure if you're aware but it is possible to buy houses 'subject to planning permission' whereby you pay and submit the planning application and the sale only goes ahead if it gets granted. Doing it that way eliminates any risk for yourself but obviously you need a vendor who will agree to this and the extra few months it will add on to a transaction. But it does happen, your solicitor could tell you more.

Muahahaha

Muahahaha wrote: »

Thats good, at least you have some planning history of it. Given they granted in 2012 you should be fine but Id still be checking with a local planning consultant. Aside from the size of it he might make you aware of other considerations/issues you havent yet considered. Even if you've to pay him 200 quid its worth for the peace of mind that are no surprises after you've completed the sale and there is no comeback. Same goes for pre-purchase and structural surverys, they're peace of mind that you're not buying a money sink.

Not sure if you're aware but it is possible to buy houses 'subject to planning permission' whereby you pay and submit the planning application and the sale only goes ahead if it gets granted. Doing it that way eliminates any risk for yourself but obviously you need a vendor who will agree to this and the extra few months it will add on to a transaction. But it does happen, your solicitor could tell you more.

It's not unusual at all to build an extension twice or three times the size of the original house. I know of at least two people doing something along these lines. Couldn't get planning for a new build on a green field site so buy a small old house and then build a new house onto it essentially.

Muahahaha

Romeo Tart Steel wrote: »

It's not unusual at all to build an extension twice or three times the size of the original house. I know of at least two people doing something along these lines. Couldn't get planning for a new build on a green field site so buy a small old house and then build a new house onto it essentially.

Yeah it seems it can be done but I think its important to check out how local planners in the county council see these things. Some councils are sticklers on planning and it varies county by county which is why local advice is important before committing to purchase.

A friend is going through planning in Meath at the moment and hes an architect trying to build something outside of the norm. They're not playing ball and are more or less dictating to him how his house will look, seems they want every new house that is built in Meath to look more or less identical. Go up the road to Westmeath and they might be more receptive.

bigroad

My take on the small extension without planning permission is that its usually to the back of the house ,
No more than 40sq/m
Less than 75 percent the ground floor area of the house.
And I think no to cover more than 75 percent of the rear wall of the house.
Open to correction but that's what I remember from the guide lines.
So if your house is only 40sq/m then the extension should be no more than 30sq/m.

Padre_Pio

Muahahaha wrote: »

Yeah it seems it can be done but I think its important to check out how local planners in the county council see these things. Some councils are sticklers on planning and it varies county by county which is why local advice is important before committing to purchase.

Called CoCo today and was told there's no provisions like this. It's all looked at on a case by case basis as expected. I got the planners name for the area so I'll call tomorrow.

Muahahaha

ednwireland wrote: »

one of teh hardest things i find is finding tradesmen who are prepared to work an old houses and more importantly good at it

Yeah and if the house is in anyway remote from larger population areas its hard to get them to even travel to give a quote