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Lizzo and "body positivity"

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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Sure, the staff writers earning $40k/year are primarily women, the ones earning the big bucks at the top and driving the agenda are mostly men.
    Here's the list of the board and movers and shakers for British Vogue. Nearly all women. Try it yourself for all the other fashion driving media. The vast majority are women. So let's imagine some some evil industrialists behind the scenes...

    fat-cat-politician.jpg

    How pray tell, do these fatcats drive the agenda? Do they get missives from on high to promote fat lasses this month, scrawny the next? It's funny that on the one hand "toxic masculinity" is the driver of so much and aided and abetted by many, if not most men, yet in an industry that is heavily weighted with women movers and shakers, it's still some sort of hidden "toxic masculinity" in the background? Yet as I've pointed out most men either don't care about that stuff and seem to prefer the "curvier". How's that work?

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Here's the list of the board and movers and shakers for British Vogue. Nearly all women. Try it yourself for all the other fashion driving media. The vast majority are women. So let's imagine some some evil industrialists behind the scenes...

    fat-cat-politician.jpg

    How pray tell, do these fatcats drive the agenda? Do they get missives from on high to promote fat lasses this month, scrawny the next? It's funny that on the one hand "toxic masculinity" is the driver of so much and aided and abetted by many, if not most men, yet in an industry that is heavily weighted with women movers and shakers, it's still some sort of hidden "toxic masculinity" in the background? Yet as I've pointed out most men either don't care about that stuff and seem to prefer the "curvier". How's that work?

    It was you yourself that pointed out in detail above that almost all of this stuff is marketing aimed at making more profits, right?

    And we know for a fact that the vast majority of CEOs and board members are men?

    Are women completely blameless? Mere passive victims in this whole narrative? No, of course not. We play a part.

    But to blame corporates is to blame those who control the corporates. And that’s mostly men.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    KiKi III wrote: »
    It was you yourself that pointed out in detail above that almost all of this stuff is marketing aimed at making more profits, right?

    And we know for a fact that the vast majority of CEOs and board members are men?

    Are women completely blameless? Mere passive victims in this whole narrative? No, of course not. We play a part.

    But to blame corporates is to blame those who control the corporates. And that’s mostly men.

    My god you have really gotten sucked into this wave of feminism.

    Those corporates wouldn't exist if you didn't spend the money on their products...just because you see an ad doesn't mean you have to buy....

    F##king hell...the savviest spenders I have come across are women who are not from this wealthy part of the world...they are also much more comfortable in themselves....just my experience.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    My god you have really gotten sucked into this wave of feminism.

    Those corporates wouldn't exist if you didn't spend the money on their products...just because you see an ad doesn't mean you have to buy....

    F##king hell...the savviest spenders I have come across are women who are not from this wealthy part of the world...they are also much more comfortable in themselves....just my experience.

    It’s a verifiable fact that 90-95% of Fortune 500 CEOs are men, and a majority on their boards. Sorry if you don’t like facts?

    And these corporates have vastly more power and influence than any individual consumer, male or female.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,434 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    KiKi III wrote: »
    But to blame corporates is to blame those who control the corporates. And that’s mostly men.


    I don’t think it is -


    Why The $445 Billion Beauty Industry Is A Gold Mine For Self-Made Women

    And lest we forget -


    How 20-Year-Old Kylie Jenner Built A $900 Million Fortune In Less Than 3 Years


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    KiKi III wrote: »
    It’s a verifiable fact that 90-95% of Fortune 500 CEOs are men, and a majority on their boards. Sorry if you don’t like facts?

    And these corporates have vastly more power and influence than any individual consumer, male or female.

    Not all companies thrive...they often go out of business...the companies that make it to the Fortune 500 do so in extremely competitive fields...but way more men fail than succeed....

    The power, when it comes to spend, lies in the individual, male or female, neither needs to pay any attention to advertisements...

    If a woman goes into town tomorrow, and spends €5,000 on a handbag or €1,500 on a pair of shoes she is not being oppressed into doing it...she is doing it on her own free will.

    What gives companies their success is how well they perform in competitive markets...not the gender of their board members....

    You probably think that women are being oppressed into taking Gender Studies courses in Universities and not Engineering courses as well no doubt!!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III



    Pointing out a few outliers doesn’t change the fact that *most* CEOs of the biggest groups with the most power (like Unilever) are men.

    I’m not going to argue facts with you, look it up for yourself.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Pointing out a few outliers doesn’t change the fact that *most* CEOs of the biggest groups with the most power (like Unilever) are men.

    I’m not going to argue facts with you, look it up for yourself.

    Nobody is arguing it....jesus....those lunatics work 18 hours a day often 7 days a week....there are only 500 CEOs in the top 500 companies...there are 3.5 billion men on the planet.....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,434 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Pointing out a few outliers doesn’t change the fact that *most* CEOs of the biggest groups with the most power (like Unilever) are men.

    I’m not going to argue facts with you, look it up for yourself.


    I did look it up for myself, that’s why I was pointing you to the fact that it’s not men who are responsible for perpetuating unrealistic and unobtainable beauty standards. There’s no question they are responsible for making as much revenue as they can in an industry which is worth €450Bn, where more and more they are having to collaborate with influencers on social media in order to sell their products, as conventional advertising is dying on it’s arse.

    I’ll give you two guesses as to the sex of the majority of those influencers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Nobody is arguing it....jesus....those lunatics work 18 hours a day often 7 days a week....there are only 500 CEOs in the top 500 companies...there are 3.5 billion men on the planet.....


    I think you’ll find One Eyed Jack is.

    Cool. So we’re finally reaching agreement that most CEOs are men, and they drive the marketing machines that you guys have already pointed out above aim to make women feel less-than to peddle their wares.

    It took a while, but we’re getting there.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭Gynoid


    KiKi III wrote: »
    You’ve already answered that question yourself; a lifetime of advertising and manipulation by corporates. It’s very difficult not to be taken in by a message that is targeted at you multiple times a day in multiple media formats from your early teens to your 60s.

    Sure, the staff writers earning $40k/year are primarily women, the ones earning the big bucks at the top and driving the agenda are mostly men.

    Even if it is mostly male fat cats at the top of fashion pressure industries, it remains perfectly easy for a woman to completely resist the pressure of "beauty" messages. Honestly I do not understand why anyone would crack under the onslaught rather than ..well....laugh out loud at it. Why people respond slavishly is a better nut to crack than whining about fat cats. It is not very difficult to resist at all. Just don't. Be yourself.

    In my early 20s I spent a good while living in Europe, women in any age group there did not wear makeup anywhere near like as much it is worn here. Also comfortable fashion choices, individual quirk and flat shoes were considered far more desirable than uncomfortable haute couture or heels. Etc etc. It is quite odd here how much makeup young women wear when they really truly do not need it at all. Their natural skin looks way better. Plus the slavish following of fashion. The amount of people going around wearing unflattering leggings that allow one to make a stab at a gynaecological assessment is unreal, just because they are in! It seems to be something that is regional - in the UK young women seem to be particularly enthralled by fashion pressure - but in lots of regions people are way more casual chic.

    Personally I never read those mags, watch those shows, follow trends or celebs, it just seems like a silly thing to get caught up in. It 's also not real.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    KiKi III wrote: »
    I think you’ll find One Eyed Jack is.

    Cool. So we’re finally reaching agreement that most CEOs are men, and they drive the marketing machines that you guys have already pointed out above aim to make women feel less-than to peddle their wares.

    It took a while, but we’re getting there.

    You are getting absolutely no where....

    You are attempting to absolve all women of the consequences of their very own spending habits.....you are not being oppressed into buying anything...it's all in your head.

    You are justifying that on the gender of the CEOs of companies.

    There is another list of people who went bankrupt every year, do you think you will find a gender imbalance there.....

    It's amazing how feminists have focused all their attention on the successful men while blissfully ignoring the huge amount of men who fail.

    Grow up, you are your own person....the fact that you think you have been oppressed is infantile.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    You are getting absolutely no where....

    You are attempting to absolve all women of the consequences of their very own spending habits.....you are not being oppressed into buying anything...it's all in your head.

    You are justifying that on the gender of the CEOs of companies.

    There is another list of people who went bankrupt every year, do you think you will find a gender imbalance there.....

    It's amazing how feminists have focused all their attention on the successful men while blissfully ignoring the huge amount of men who fail.

    Grow up, you are your own person....the fact that you think you have been oppressed is infantile.

    I acknowledged that women play a part in this just a few posts up, you’re only seeing what you want to see.

    I’m simply pointing out that most of the most influential decision-makers in the corporate world are male, a fact I believe you acknowledged above.

    I haven’t claimed I’m being oppressed into buying stuff. What I said was that women are targeted with a huge amount of advertising throughout their lives that is explicitly designed to make them feel less-than so that they will buy the products these companies are selling. I believe this is the point that Wibbs made initially.

    I’ll happily continue this debate with Wibbs and others who have been civil, but I’m going to bow out of engaging with you because you persistently try to get below the belt jabs in (the ref to gender studies previously and calling me infantile above as examples)

    So... have a lovely evening.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,434 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    KiKi III wrote: »
    I think you’ll find One Eyed Jack is.

    Cool. So we’re finally reaching agreement that most CEOs are men, and they drive the marketing machines that you guys have already pointed out above aim to make women feel less-than to peddle their wares.

    It took a while, but we’re getting there.


    You’re constantly switching gears there though. We were talking about the drivers behind the fashion and beauty industry, and you then went on to make the point that most CEO’s in Fortune 500 companies are men, which is a totally different claim altogether and doesn’t prove anything one way or the other about the main drivers behind the fashion and beauty industry, which is mostly driven by women in all areas from the very top down, and across a broad range of advertising mediums whether it be traditional media such as tv and magazine campaigns, to social media campaigns and collaborating with social media influencers who are mostly women (there are some high profile male MUAs, but their audience is still mostly comprised of women).

    I know you’ve already made the point that because you have friends whom you don’t feel pressure from to look a certain way, it can’t be true generally speaking, but we know that’s simply an unrealistic point of view that fails to acknowledge the influence that women do have on each other to look a certain way. That’s why outliers like the proponents of this “body positivity movement” while they don’t stand a snowballs chance in hell of gaining any traction in society, they’re still just as dangerous as the old fashion houses promoting unrealistic and unobtainable fashion standards and dangerous body image standards for women.

    There’s plenty of research which suggests the approach of suggesting that it’s ok to be obese is doing more harm than any claims it is supposed to be addressing -

    Normalization of Plus Size and the Danger of Unseen Overweight and Obesity in England


    Results

    The proportion of individuals with overweight and obesity misperceiving their weight status increased over time between 1997 and 2015 (37% to 40% in men; 17% to 19% in women). There were socioeconomic disparities in the misperception of weight status, with lower‐educated individuals from poorer‐income households and members of minority ethnic groups being more likely to underestimate their weight. Those underestimating their overweight and obesity status were 85% less likely to try to lose weight compared with people who accurately identified their weight status.

    Conclusions

    The upward trend in underassessment of overweight and obesity status in England is possibly a result of the normalization of overweight and obesity. Obesity prevention programs need to consider differential sociodemographic characteristics associated with underassessment of weight status.



    That’s even before I were ever to present evidence of what’s driving the diet and fitness industry for women (again, it’s not men who are the primary profiteers, it’s women).

    Instead of constantly justifying their existence by claiming they are healthy in spite of being obese, they could behave more responsibly by setting an example for young people that it’s not healthy physically or mentally to be over or underweight, and at least then they could claim to be promoting a responsible message instead of this crap -


    [Chorus: Lizzo]

    Slow songs, they for skinny hoes
    Can't move all of this here to one of those
    I'm a thick bitch, I need tempo (Tempo)
    **** it up to the tempo



    “Body positivity” me hole :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    KiKi III wrote: »
    I acknowledged that women play a part in this just a few posts up, you’re only seeing what you want to see.

    I’m simply pointing out that most of the most influential decision-makers in the corporate world are male, a fact I believe you acknowledged above.

    I haven’t claimed I’m being oppressed into buying stuff. What I said was that women are targeted with a huge amount of advertising throughout their lives that is explicitly designed to make them feel less-than so that they will buy the products these companies are selling. I believe this is the point that Wibbs made initially.

    I’ll happily continue this debate with Wibbs and others who have been civil, but I’m going to bow out of engaging with you because you persistently try to get below the belt jabs in (the ref to gender studies previously and calling me infantile above as examples)

    So... have a lovely evening.

    Fair enough...

    But, let's take what men do spend their money on, take a football club...men tend to follow football clubs, buy jerseys, tickets, suscriptions etc...now, nobody would suggest that men are being influenced by some mystical power to do so...it isn't the fault of the club owners, or Sky Sports or Paddy Power....it is the choice of the individual....if a man doesn't like he doesn't have to watch or support it....do companies abuse those supporters, absolutely.

    We find ourselves in a culture where women are being absolved of personal responsibility at every turn and every vital decision they make in life (including University choices), and that is extremely unhealthy, and when more and more people make more and more unhealthy decisions you end up in a society or culture the "celebrates" unhealthy decisions and with it dysfunction which seems to be escalating...this is why we find ourselves in the throws of a number of different epidemics at virtually the same time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,524 ✭✭✭Gynoid


    Fair enough...

    But, let's take what men do spend their money on, take a football club...men tend to follow football clubs, buy jerseys, tickets, suscriptions etc...now, nobody would suggest that men are being influenced by some mystical power to do so...it isn't the fault of the club owners, or Sky Sports or Paddy Power....it is the choice of the individual....if a man doesn't like he doesn't have to watch or support it....do companies abuse those supporters, absolutely.

    We find ourselves in a culture where women are being absolved of personal responsibility at every turn and every vital decision they make in life (including University choices), and that is extremely unhealthy, and when more and more people make more and more unhealthy decisions you end up in a society or culture the "celebrates" unhealthy decisions and with it dysfunction which seems to be escalating...this is why we find ourselves in the throws of a number of different epidemics at virtually the same time.

    Yeah I agree that there is a growing movement towards absolving personal responsibility in lots of areas. I wonder if it goes with a more general undercurrent towards idealised collectivism. Hmmm, just wondering. Don't know. For example, the state is looked upon ever more now as an arbiter in matters of personal conscience and provision.

    Basically ....insert lots of examples...borg mind. Haha :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,536 ✭✭✭Silentcorner


    Gynoid wrote: »
    Yeah I agree that there is a growing movement towards absolving personal responsibility in lots of areas. I wonder if it goes with a more general undercurrent towards idealised collectivism. Hmmm, just wondering. Don't know. For example, the state is looked upon ever more now as an arbiter in matters of personal conscience and provision.

    Basically ....insert lots of examples...borg mind. Haha :)

    Well...the one thing fascists love is more state control and influence.

    I've been trying to convince myself that it is all in my head, but we cannot argue, we have handed a lot of decisions over to bureaucrats unbeknownst to many of us (ie Self ID Gender laws)...practically every major institution is engaging in or being pressurised to engage in quotas....Feminism is rooted in Hard Left ideology that has always believed that the family unit is oppressive to women....The entire education infrastructure is under the influence or being pressured to engage in "correct" thinking and research.

    The list of social issues that we must not discuss is getting longer and longer.

    Does it feel like we are living in a liberal democracy???


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,434 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Well...the one thing fascists love is more state control and influence.

    ...

    The list of social issues that we must not discuss is getting longer and longer.

    Does it feel like we are living in a liberal democracy???


    Do you really take any notice of anyone who suggests you can’t criticise people promoting obesity?

    That’s the very essence of living in a liberal democratic society - in just the same way as you have a right to promote your ideas, other people too have a right to promote their ideas. I’m under no obligation to agree with their ideas or to adhere to their beliefs, but fcuk it, catchy tune all the same -





    I dunno ‘bout you but I completely missed the point of that whole “body positivity” nonsense she is apparently promoting :pac:

    Maybe it’s because I’m a conservative old fart who finds a clever video a lot more appealing than Lizzo’s “in your face” efforts -




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Raconteuse


    KiKi III wrote: »
    That’s not really true. None of my friends have ever put pressure on me to look a certain way. But TV, magazines, the music industry, film etc have put ever-increasing pressure on women to look a certain way.
    Nor do my friends - I'm not talking about friends though, I'm talking about a more over arching trend. Do you not see all those women who feel like they actually "have to" do all that shyte? Why do they feel they have to? It ain't men who give a stuff about all that.

    Now obviously it's natural to want to look good, but getting botox and lip fillers in your early 20s is another dimension.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Raconteuse wrote: »
    Nor do my friends - I'm not talking about friends though, I'm talking about a more over arching trend. Do you not see all those women who feel like they actually "have to" do all that shyte? Why do they feel they have to? It ain't men who give a stuff about all that.

    Now obviously it's natural to want to look good, but getting botox and lip fillers in your early 20s is another dimension.

    I’d argue it’s mostly marketing departments of the fashion, beauty, music and film industries pumping billions and billions into that very message.

    I’d say in order of how much impact they have, it’s
    1. Industry
    2. Other women
    3. Other men


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,256 ✭✭✭metaoblivia


    Larbre34 wrote: »
    Well, on the Mama Cass scale, I'd say this will all be resolved soon.

    Mama Cass, singer with the Mamas and the Papas, was a similar weight to Lizzo (300 lbs) and died aged 32 of heart failure in 1974.

    Lizzo is now 31, so this whole matter of her being 'body positive' will likely be thrown into sharp relief in a year or so.

    Not necessarily. Mama Cass crash dieted for years in the lead up to her death. She was constantly losing 60-70 pounds in a short amount of time, then regaining it, then losing it, then regaining in again, and that puts a lot of stress on the heart. She was also doing a lot drugs, including diet pills, which also puts stress on the heart. All of those things factored into her early death from heart failure. We don't know enough about Lizzo's lifestyle to conclude that she'll meet a similarly timed fate.

    Plenty of obese people live past the age of 32. Many obviously have health issues, but they live past 32.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Not necessarily. Mama Cass crash dieted for years in the lead up to her death. She was constantly losing 60-70 pounds in a short amount of time, then regaining it, then losing it, then regaining in again, and that puts a lot of stress on the heart. She was also doing a lot drugs, including diet pills, which also puts stress on the heart. All of those things factored into her early death from heart failure. We don't know enough about Lizzo's lifestyle to conclude that she'll meet a similarly timed fate.

    Plenty of obese people live past the age of 32. Many obviously have health issues, but they live past 32.

    YES.

    Look, I’m not going to deny that if somebody is obese long-term, that that’s more likely than not going to lead to health problems and that on a population level, obese people die younger. But people are talking like she will definitely die young and definitely have serious health problems and that’s simply not something anyone can say for sure. An elevated risk doesn’t translate to everybody in that group having all the health problems.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    Raconteuse wrote: »
    Oh so many of the pressures put on women in terms of appearance are by other women. You don't "have to" put on tan, primer (whatever that is), blush, bronze, wear crippling heels, etc.
    Who puts pressure on women to have a different outfit for every wedding they go to....cause it ain't their boyfriends!

    Comments on women’s appearance are about way more than clothes and make up. Men will be less specific but they are well able to be pass-remarkable about women’s bodies. I’ve overheard plenty of comments down the years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,849 ✭✭✭764dak


    Much of body positivity seems rubbish.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Alright then Yeats, what will you call her?

    A big fat fatty :D


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