RAF QRA Launch!

Psychlops

‪MADRAS712 is on a NATO Air Policing Squawk of 1321‬, callsign is 3IR64.

Psychlops

QRA update: 2 RAF Typhoons have launched from RAF Lossiemouth, Typhoons ZK349 & ZK434.

Also off topic but interesting:

MISTY12 flight talking to Shanwick HF, flight of 2 US Air Force B2 Stealth Bombers routing to RAF Fairford, due 14:30-14:50.

Hotblack Desiato

banie01 wrote: »

Costing NATO far more to escort and respond than it is the Russians to plot an awkward bastard patrol route.

Meh. If these lads weren't flying intercepts, they'd have to fly more training missions.

Psychlops

RAF QRA Tanker MADRAS712 ZZ336 headed south past Dublin at 27,000ft.

Shannon reporting unknown Russian Aircraft 20 miles behind Delta flight DAL17/DL17 from Heathrow to Salt Lake City, & another aircraft told the Russian Aircraft would pass 4 miles behind him.

Markcheese

Larbre34 wrote: »

It wouldn't be outrageous at all.

Simon Coveney himself acknowledged the need for a military grade primary radar as a first step.

After that there are a good many solutions that could be examined for aircraft. The Czech Republic leases from Sweden 12 x Gripen multirole supersonic jets since 2004 until 2027 for about €80 million a year. That includes tech support and training and upgrades. Thats less than 10% of even our meagre defence budget in a country that takes in 60 billion a year in taxes. Between that and the primary radar, both of which the EU may well co-fund, we'd have a very good standard of air defence for our needs.

Cool, 80 to 100 million p/a for the jets ... Add in a few Bob to get jet trainers , do you need hardened hangers ? ,Fuel would be relatively small ...
Now we start to hit the big cost ... Staff... 3 crews per plane ? Each Being 1 pilot , 1 technician and 5(?) More ,
And that's not even the maintenance crowd ... Then the hierarchy above them , and the trainers ,stores and logistics ,
So maybe 1 and half to double the size of the aer corp... And a lot more highly trained / expensive ,difficult to hold onto staff ...

Now ,what this air Force actually for ? Defending the state ? From who ? ( Because who we're defending ourselves from kinda defines the numbers of planes and their type ) ,
Does having 12 or 24 or whatever planes make the state safer ,or does it make it a target ..

Now if Ireland decides it no longer wants to be neutral ,and get involved in European defence or. Nato ,then that's different again ....

Psychlops

MISTY12 flight today with escort from RAF Lakenheath F15’s. What a beauty the B2 Stealth is. Pictures courtesy US Air Forces Europe.

Psychlops

Today’s intercept by the RAF, pictures courtesy of the RAF. These are Russian Air Force TU-160 Blackjack Bombers they are supersonic heavy strategic bombers & are capable of carrying nuclear weapons.

Larbre34

Markcheese wrote: »

Cool, 80 to 100 million p/a for the jets ... Add in a few Bob to get jet trainers , do you need hardened hangers ? ,Fuel would be relatively small ...
Now we start to hit the big cost ... Staff... 3 crews per plane ? Each Being 1 pilot , 1 technician and 5(?) More ,
And that's not even the maintenance crowd ... Then the hierarchy above them , and the trainers ,stores and logistics ,
So maybe 1 and half to double the size of the aer corp... And a lot more highly trained / expensive ,difficult to hold onto staff ...

Now ,what this air Force actually for ? Defending the state ? From who ? ( Because who we're defending ourselves from kinda defines the numbers of planes and their type ) ,
Does having 12 or 24 or whatever planes make the state safer ,or does it make it a target ..

Now if Ireland decides it no longer wants to be neutral ,and get involved in European defence or. Nato ,then that's different again ....

Yes all correct as regards manpower, I don't believe we need hardened hangars, but we do need air stations beyond Baldonnell, closer to the Atlantic, I would put a flight of two QRA in both Kerry and Sligo Airports, with associated facilities for fuelling, basic maintenance and crew accommodation.

I agree too about the manpower issue, but I believe the attraction of fast jets dovetailed with a mandatory 5 or 7 years post attestation service would more than cover it. I would think you are looking at perhaps 40 pilot officers and 50 or 60 ground technicians covering minimum 9 of 12 aircraft operational at one time. An element of that would already be in service.

Would a jet capability make the State a target? I don't see why it would. From whom would be defending the air land and sea territory? Clearly the Russian military who have taken an aggressive stance in Western European territory and seek to operate their heavy warplanes with impunity. I don't advocate NATO membership right now and that is precisely why I contend we need an independent air defence capability, as the current arrangement heavily dilutes our military non-alignment. Operation of jets would also allow us to cooperate with our neutral and PfP colleagues in training and peace enforcement, including providing combat air cover for our own peacekeeping and peace enforcement operations in Mali, for example.

Tabnabs

Norwegian's deployed their F35's for the first time in this role and got up close to the Russian's.

Markcheese

Larbre34 wrote: »

Yes all correct as regards manpower, I don't believe we need hardened hangars, but we do need air stations beyond Baldonnell, closer to the Atlantic, I would put a flight of two QRA in both Kerry and Sligo Airports, with associated facilities for fuelling, basic maintenance and crew accommodation.

I agree too about the manpower issue, but I believe the attraction of fast jets dovetailed with a mandatory 5 or 7 years post attestation service would more than cover it. I would think you are looking at perhaps 40 pilot officers and 50 or 60 ground technicians covering minimum 9 of 12 aircraft operational at one time. An element of that would already be in service.

Would a jet capability make the State a target? I don't see why it would. From whom would be defending the air land and sea territory? Clearly the Russian military who have taken an aggressive stance in Western European territory and seek to operate their heavy warplanes with impunity. I don't advocate NATO membership right now and that is precisely why I contend we need an independent air defence capability, as the current arrangement heavily dilutes our military non-alignment. Operation of jets would also allow us to cooperate with our neutral and PfP colleagues in training and peace enforcement, including providing combat air cover for our own peacekeeping and peace enforcement operations in Mali, for example.

Wow, combat air cover in West Africa .... So how many more planes and crews over the 9 to 12 mythical grippens are you thinking ...

Larbre34

Irish Times has an article today based on an interview with retired US Admiral James Stavridis, former Supreme Allied Commander Europe, NATOs second highest military officer and operational commander.

He believes the Russian probing of the highly strategic Greenland/Iceland/UK gap, which is what Ireland is now caught up in, will only further intensify and heat up the necessary NATO mirroring.

He acknowledges that setting up a jet interceptor force in Ireland would be extremely expensive, and says that the recent assessment by retired GOC Air Corps, Brigadier General Ralph James, that a proper capability would be 16 jets and full support operations, would be a bare minimum.

Gen. James outlined in an interview with the Irish Times of 26th February, that there was no point in having "half a capability", and that for a 24/7 service we would need the 16 jets, 3 crews each, technicians, weapons specialists, suitable fire crew and ATC and full primary radar coverage.

Admiral Stavridis today suggests a bilateral agreement between Ireland and France or Germany to locate fighter units here in a policing role similar to that being undertaken by NATO air assets in the EU Baltic States.

Interesting discussion points.

Markcheese

But ... Does Ireland ( currently ) have an interest in long-range bombers or submarine and anti submarine war fare ...
As in the start of world war 2, we were in a strategically important location .... To the Germans and the British .. but as it wasn't a conflict of ours ,.. we didn't get involved ..
If we'd aided either Germans or the allies how long would it have been before Ireland had been bombed ...

Leonidas BL

Markcheese wrote: »

But ... Does Ireland ( currently ) have an interest in long-range bombers or submarine and anti submarine war fare ...
As in the start of world war 2, we were in a strategically important location .... To the Germans and the British .. but as it wasn't a conflict of ours ,.. we didn't get involved ..
If we'd aided either Germans or the allies how long would it have been before Ireland had been bombed ...

A good question. What actual interest does Vlad have in Ireland??

About ww2, surely the Germans would've invaded had they defeated the allies??

Psychlops

Larbre34 wrote: »

I would put a flight of two QRA in both Kerry and Sligo Airports, with associated facilities for fuelling, basic maintenance and crew accommodation.

You wouldnt have the length in Sligo, if you are going to put QRA anywhere with dedicated services your best & most obvious bases are Knock & Shannon.

Psychlops

Markcheese wrote: »

If we'd aided either Germans or the allies how long would it have been before Ireland had been bombed ...

We did aid the allies, who gave you history lessons?

Psychlops

Leonidas BL wrote: »

A good question. What actual interest does Vlad have in Ireland??

About ww2, surely the Germans would've invaded had they defeated the allies??

Course they would, Operation Green.

Leonidas BL

Psychlops wrote: »

You wouldnt have the length in Sligo, if you are going to put QRA anywhere with dedicated services your best & most obvious bases are Knock & Shannon.

Sligo be plenty long for Gripen.

Larbre34

I'd be concerned about Knock's isolated location, and elevated site, can get foggy, snowy, windy.

It probably wouldn't matter exactly where, I just picked Kerry and Sligo to maximise the coverage and minimise the distance to open ocean in case of supersonic interception.

sparky42

Leonidas BL wrote: »

A good question. What actual interest does Vlad have in Ireland??

About ww2, surely the Germans would've invaded had they defeated the allies??

Hence why there was an agreement to join if the Germans had actually launched Sealion. They couldn't of course but still, in hindsight it would almost have been better for the UK if they had.

Markcheese

Psychlops wrote: »

We did aid the allies, who gave you history lessons?

Did we ? Do tell ..., We had a very lax internment system ( for both sides) ,we didn't offer our ports to either side ...
We played it to our advantage ,(maybe not economically ) , anyway back to modern times ..

sparky42

Markcheese wrote: »

Did we ? Do tell ..., We had a very lax internment system ( for both sides) ,we didn't offer our ports to either side ...
We played it to our advantage ,(maybe not economically ) , anyway back to modern times ..

Our intelligence services worked together, we provided weather forecasts for the UK (hence Blacksod giving the weather for making the decision for D-Day), we gave the UK sub sighting reports, allowed overflights, and worked with the UK developing plans to join the war if there was an invasion.

Markcheese

How much would baldonnal be worth ? For property development ? It's not far from some decent transport links ...
Flog it ... Relocate the aer corp to Shannon ( which has air traffic control and fire service 24/ 7 ,plus a decent runway that the government kinda have to subsidise anyway .., ( keep a helicopter base and offices in baldonnal but relocate everything else down to Shannon ... Feic it ,build a few decent appartment complexes for the aer corp ,at subsidised rents for serving members ..
And invest the proceeds in upgrading the aer corp ...although I've no idea how far you'd get ... pc21s ?Lead in jets ? A decent apprentice ship and training programme for technicians and pilots , and the ability to retire or buy out early leaving room for others to train on and up ...
( Doubt there'd be enough money ,or will enough to start funding supersonic jets though )

Leonidas BL

sparky42 wrote: »

Our intelligence services worked together, we provided weather forecasts for the UK (hence Blacksod giving the weather for making the decision for D-Day), we gave the UK sub sighting reports, allowed overflights, and worked with the UK developing plans to join the war if there was an invasion.

Not to mention allowing RAF pilots to return to the UK but interning the Luftwaffe pilots.

Leonidas BL

Markcheese wrote: »

How much would baldonnal be worth ? For property development ? It's not far from some decent transport links ...
Flog it ... Relocate the aer corp to Shannon ( which has air traffic control and fire service 24/ 7 ,plus a decent runway that the government kinda have to subsidise anyway .., ( keep a helicopter base and offices in baldonnal but relocate everything else down to Shannon ... Feic it ,build a few decent appartment complexes for the aer corp ,at subsidised rents for serving members ..
And invest the proceeds in upgrading the aer corp ...although I've no idea how far you'd get ... pc21s ?Lead in jets ? A decent apprentice ship and training programme for technicians and pilots , and the ability to retire or buy out early leaving room for others to train on and up ...
( Doubt there'd be enough money ,or will enough to start funding supersonic jets though )

PC21's and Gripens

Flog the PC-9's

donvito99

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Waffle. None of which addresses what I posted about the points you made. So do we have military jets or not?

BTW it's a billion a year, and yes it's never going to happen.

I quite clearly called you out on not being able to demonstrate that there was a threat to civilian traffic which could not be avoided via a primary radar.

I also made it quite clear that a fleet of fast jets would be a waste and would take resources away from actual threats to the State, and would merely meet your desire to see an aircraft with an AC roundel escorting a bomber flying through international air space in peacetime.

jonnybigwallet

This notion of a billion a year is rubbish. Whoever came up with that number did not do any research. I see in the Examiner this week that RACO endorses the idea of establishing an air defence and QRA capability for the air corps along with other military enhancements.

donvito99

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

This notion of a billion a year is rubbish. Whoever came up with that number did not do any research. I see in the Examiner this week that RACO endorses the idea of establishing an air defence and QRA capability for the air corps along with other military enhancements.

A former General Officer Commanding the Air Corps came up with that figure.

I think we all know who we'd sooner believe.

sparky42

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

This notion of a billion a year is rubbish. Whoever came up with that number did not do any research. I see in the Examiner this week that RACO endorses the idea of establishing an air defence and QRA capability for the air corps along with other military enhancements.

Are you a general office of the Air Corps? If not maybe we go with someone who was.

jonnybigwallet

The billion number is to set up the QRA. Not the annual running cost...I'm surprised you haven't worked up the numbers yourself Sparky.

Larbre34

I'd say the setup costs, for 16 jets plus purpose built hangars, at least one extra air station, weapons purchase and storage, aprons and fuel infrastructure, training suites, barracks, IT and Comms and most importantly a national military radar would be more like 2-2.5 billion.

Annual running costs, including payroll of 40-50 additional pilots, 50-80 more techs, maintenence, fuel and weapons consumables, upgrades, constant training would be between 200 and 300 million, an increase of about one third to the Defence budget.

I'd still be doing it.

Psychlops

Markcheese wrote: »

for the aer corp

Its not Aer Corp, FFS get it right its Air Corps. Why do so many posters here need to get checked on this? Its bad enough its written on alot of the Aircraft they operate.

Markcheese

Psychlops wrote: »

Its not Aer Corp, FFS get it right its Air Corps. Why do so many posters here need to get checked on this? Its bad enough its written on alot of the Aircraft they operate.

Fair enough ..

Markcheese

Psychlops wrote: »

Its not Aer Corp, FFS get it right its Air Corps. Why do so many posters here need to get checked on this? Its bad enough its written on alot of the Aircraft they operate.

Fair enough ..

JamesM

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Not to mention allowing RAF pilots to return to the UK but interning the Luftwaffe pilots.

Not to mention the crew, dressed in Irish uniform, who were collecting one of our MTBs, thinking that it was a good idea to head on over to Dunkirk and lift English and French soldiers off the beaches.

purplepanda

Looks like the TU-160-Blackjack has also joined the recent Russian patrols! :pac:

https://theaviationist.com/2020/03/13/raf-typhoons-intercept-russian-tu-160-blackjack-bomber-in-third-intercept-this-week/

Psychlops

purplepanda wrote: »

Looks like the TU-160-Blackjack has also joined the recent Russian patrols! :pac:

https://theaviationist.com/2020/03/13/raf-typhoons-intercept-russian-tu-160-blackjack-bomber-in-third-intercept-this-week/

Already mentioned here.

Leonidas BL

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Yeah..Thanks Psy. Jolly interesting and educational in to the bargain. I've upgraded my wish list for fighter aircraft and now feel that for the air defence and intercept role that the wee Chech job would not quite cut the mustard. So I reckon 6 of the Fa50 Korean jets would be a reasonable asset and 6 of the chech jobs would do for the air ground role.

FA50 is only a fart of a thing. We should get some Eurofighters and share patrol duties with the UK.

donvito99

Leonidas BL wrote: »

FA50 is only a fart of a thing. We should get some Eurofighters and share patrol duties with the UK.

Austria would like a word with you.

Hotblack Desiato

donvito99 wrote: »

I quite clearly called you out on not being able to demonstrate that there was a threat to civilian traffic which could not be avoided via a primary radar.

You are being unnecessarily aggressive.
Why do the RAF or any other country bother with intercepts, then? if having a radar is adequate. The intercepting aircraft squawk so they can be seen on secondary radar / TCAS, it's been many decades since primary radar alone was thought adequate for safe conduct of civil aviation.

I also made it quite clear that a fleet of fast jets would be a waste and would take resources away from actual threats to the State, and would merely meet your desire to see an aircraft with an AC roundel escorting a bomber flying through international air space in peacetime.

Now you're just making stuff up, I have not expressed any such desire and already acknowledged it'll never happen.

donvito99

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

You are being unnecessarily aggressive.
Why do the RAF or any other country bother with intercepts, then? if having a radar is adequate.

They have historically maintained vast fleets of fighters, bombers and now fighter bombers for war, which are also capable of intercepting these Russian stunts. It is an opportunity to train and for them to test there own readiness generally, given that a scenario in which Britain has to fight another aerial war above in its own skys is unlikely in the extreme.

The intercepting aircraft squawk so they can be seen on secondary radar / TCAS, it's been many decades since primary radar alone was thought adequate for safe conduct of civil aviation.

It can't be inadequate if the same technology manages to successfully detect these Russian aircraft in the first place.

An ideal situation would be a network of radars maintained by the IAA and monitored by their controllers, allowing them to identify anything in the most sensitive and congested parts of our controlled airspace without the need to involve another layer i.e. the AC/Defence Forces at large, as they can barely field controllers at Baldonnel at present.

These Russian aircraft suddenly become no threat at all once commercial aircraft can be made aware of their presence and redirected to continue on their merry way.

jonnybigwallet

The QRA has other tasks as well. Enforcing an air exclusion zone and checking out airliners in distress etc. Would come in handy for the Bray air show as well!

Psychlops

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Would come in handy for the Bray air show as well!

Sweet jesus.

Leonidas BL

Psychlops wrote: »

Sweet jesus.

A broken record :rolleyes:

jonnybigwallet

Lighten up guys! That was just a joke! Have yez no sense of humour!