Working From Home Megathread

ChikiChiki

If this keeps up in the new year, seriously considering a move to SE Asia (Vietnam) for a year to put a deposit together for a house and working remotely there. My company absolutely could not give a fiddlers about people returning.

Dublin salary living in SE Asia is a win. Has anyone done anything like this?

JeffKenna

Kilboor wrote: »

I mean for anyone in Ireland.

Why isn't it? I rent and pay 60%+ of my salary and suddenly I've no money left to spend, the only person who benefits is the landlord.

I emigrate, who in Ireland benefits from that? Now I'm taking my money elsewhere.

Maybe the people who have to listen to you moan on a daily basis might benefit?

BrentMused

I was working fully from home from the end of March to around the start of August, then from the start of August to the present day I’ve been tasked with a week in the office and a week from home on a rotation.

My current role is an hours’ drive from home and I find my quality of life on my work from home days to be immeasurably better than when I am in the office, so much so that I now dread those office weeks.

Between travel costs I’m saving about €100 a week when working from home, can get my exercise done before work (not realistic when in the office), can get some housework done during my lunch break, and when 5:30pm comes I can close my laptop and have the evening to spend time with family.

When in the office it’s about 6:30pm before getting home and by the time I exercise, shower, cook dinner, do some housework, it’s essentially time to go to bed to do the same thing all over again the next day.

I had never been fortunate enough to be able to work from home prior to COVID but now I’ll find it very difficult to go back to the office full-time when that time comes. Even with a salary cut I’d still be up money due to my commuting costs but with a much better quality of life.

All very selfish reasons I know but I must also point out that the same amount and standard of work is being done when I’m at home and I’ve had that confirmed by management.

I’m really enjoying work from home.

Lillyfae

ChikiChiki wrote: »

If this keeps up in the new year, seriously considering a move to SE Asia (Vietnam) for a year to put a deposit together for a house and working remotely there.

Dublin salary living in SE Asia is a win. Has anyone done anything like this?

I know some people who only just about got back to Europe with all the border closures etc, not Vietnam but Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore. It was a total nightmare by all accounts.

If I had a choice I'd look into the South of Spain, Italy, Greece. Not as cheap but cheaper than Ireland, and safer to be in Europe in case everything goes Pete Tong again imo.

Tenzor07

ChikiChiki wrote: »

If this keeps up in the new year, seriously considering a move to SE Asia (Vietnam) for a year to put a deposit together for a house and working remotely there.

Dublin salary living in SE Asia is a win. Has anyone done anything like this?

Are you a contractor in a high skill specialist area?

If not then why would your employer pay someone say €5,000 a month to work in a country like Vietnam where the average wage is around $500 a month?

Also you have to declare your tax residency in Vietnam so would your employer be willing to give you a new contract that sets out all your liabilities for tax and local labour laws?

inthenip

ChikiChiki wrote: »

If this keeps up in the new year, seriously considering a move to SE Asia (Vietnam) for a year to put a deposit together for a house and working remotely there. My company absolutely could not give a fiddlers about people returning.

Dublin salary living in SE Asia is a win. Has anyone done anything like this?

Tax implications, your employer might not be happy with it either.

Kilboor

JeffKenna wrote: »

Maybe the people who have to listen to you moan on a daily basis might benefit?

Funny man

Alf Veedersane

Tenzor07 wrote: »

You have to think like an employer, they open these offices in places like for example; Ballsbridge, Grand Canal Dock or Stephens Green areas to attract the best people to come and work in prestige offices... They are paying this premium to ensure staff are happy and motivated to come into the office everyday.

So a 10% pay cut would be in line with you working from home say in Carlow, or Drogheda, wages are generally lower in these areas..
As a home worker you're also competing globally with other workers so a pay cut will mean you have a greater chance of keeping your job..
Can many employees say that they are spending a full number of hours they used to at their desk? Or are they off cleaning the car or going out to Tesco between meetings? Not everyone is super productive working from home...

Lol, they're not kitting out the offices like they are in order to keep their staff happy or motivated to come to work. Google, for example, want you to stay in the office longer. But they get their pound of flesh from you either way.

If your productivity drops, you'll know about it so whether you're happy and motivated to come into work is irrelevant if you aren't producing the goods. In which case you will be replaced.

It's not a binary choice. We're talking about flexibility. If the employer wants his staff to be happy and motivated to work for them, then the flexibility to work from home is part and parcel of that. Their productivity can be measured and if it's not working for the employer, so be it.

I can only speak for myself but yes I worked the same hours. I kept the same routine working from home. Probably a shorter lunch break though.

JeffKenna

Kilboor wrote: »

Funny man

Haha sorry felt a bit guilty about that comment. Was meant in jest and I hope you take it that way.

inthenip

16 hours commuting a week.
Bed 2 hours later than if I had to commute.

Saving basically 26 hours of free time from Mon to Fri.

Can go for a few pints when I feel like Sunday to Thursday.

I'll be looking for a lot more flexibility when Covid is over or my CV will be handed out.

I live in an area unfortunately where no other jobs are. Have to commute to Dublin.
.
This is the same for many people across Ireland.

Kilboor

JeffKenna wrote: »

Haha sorry felt a bit guilty about that comment. Was meant in jest and I hope you take it that way.

I don't take offense to anything randomers say on the internet

JDD

I don't think anyone is honestly saying that everyone should be forced to WFH full time. Nobody is even saying that anyone should be forced to WFH part time.

My company has over 2000 staff. With the exception of certain positions in IT (maybe), none of the jobs could be done by someone who doesn't have an intimate knowledge of irish financial services and law.

The average age of people in my organisation is 40. So that will give you a good idea of where the majority of people's lives are at. I expect that, next year, everyone will be allowed to WFH three days a week, and you can choose to be in the office for more than that if you like. So the young staff, graduates etc can be in work every day if they so choose. Some others may choose to move down the country, commuting up just two days a week.

I am in the IFSC, so every single shop/restaurant caters to office workers. The number of workers in the IFSC will massively shink in size, and a number of cafes/shops will go under. That's the reality of it.

38,000 people work in the IFSC, including those who work in the cafes and shops. Fast forward 10 years, when 2/3 days in the office has been a reality for most, do you think those 38,000 will be happier or less satisfied with their lives? What will have happened to the cafe workers that were laid off? Do you think they'll still be on the dole? What about the office worker? Will they say "well, in hindsight, if I knew my taxes were going to go up for a period, I never would have opted to WFH two days a week"? I'll eat my hat if that's the case.

Yes, there will be pain. There will be people laid off. It *may* have been preferable for this to happen over a longer period of time, but to honest, I think if it didn't happen this way - in a short sharp shock - it would never have happened at all.

People will go bankrupt. Taxes will rise - though only a tiny proportion of that will be to pay social welfare for those businesses that relied on office workers, mostly it will be to pay for the pandemic. But medium to long term this benefits everyone.

Less stress. Less burnout. More women staying in the workforce. The regeneration of rural areas. Getting to know your neighbours. More time in the evening for exercise. Less meetings to prepare for meetings. More productivity. More time to prepare healthy meals. More money to spend on actual things, like home improvements or holidays, rather than €4 daily coffees. It's not that I don't see the cons of having less office workers in town, it's just that in the medium to long term, it seems to me that there are overwhelming pros.

And those who need or want to be in an office, can absolutely do so.

Quin_Dub

The bottom line here is that Companies are going to have to be flexible in future.

Blanket instructions of "Everybody in the Office" or "Everybody work remote" just aren't going to cut it moving forward.

A huge number of companies and people have been participating in a massive pilot project for the last 6 months and adjustments will have to be made based on the findings.

As clearly seen in the thread there's a mix of viewpoints and preferences. Employers are going to need to reflect that and accommodate those preferences.

If you want to work 70% or 80%+ remote , you should be able to , if you want to work 100% in the office or close to that , you should also be able to.

It has to be about choice , which ever choice you make that suits you and your work/personal circumstances.

Tenzor07

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Lol, they're not kitting out the offices like they are in order to keep their staff happy or motivated to come to work. Google, for example, want you to stay in the office longer. But they get their pound of flesh from you either way. If your productivity drops, you'll know about it so whether you're happy and motivated to come into work is irrelevant if you aren't producing the goods. In which case you will be replaced. It's not a binary choice. We're talking about flexibility. If the employer wants his staff to be happy and motivated to work for them, then the flexibility to work from home is part and parcel of that. Their productivity can be measured and if it's not working for the employer, so be it. I can only speak for myself but yes I worked the same hours. I kept the same routine working from home. Probably a shorter lunch break though.

So you think that's funny or something? Then why would Google open an office in an expensive centrally located area, kit it out to the highest of standards and have facilities available to staff that wouldn't go amiss in a luxury holiday resort?
Why not just open a basic office in an rented building out in Enfield or something?

As an employer why would they pay a premium of wages to a staff member sat at home in Bettystown? Why would they not save 40% and pay someone in central Europe to do the same job? Employers aren't charities who want to pay someone in Ireland more to work at a job in a very competitive Global market...

Of course there has to be flexibility, and even before Covid you'd expect that sort of flexibility when needed.... But my point is, if you're working from home on a more permanent basis then expect a 10% pay cut..

Tenzor07

JDD wrote: »

My company has over 2000 staff. With the exception of certain positions in IT (maybe), none of the jobs could be done by someone who doesn't have an intimate knowledge of irish financial services and law..

I recall in previous employment how Finance and HR were in the Process of being moved to Eastern Europe and India, and how Irish senior staff were sent to these countries to train local staff in, who then went on to train their different teams.. So unless there's a legal regulatory reason why 2,000 staff need to be retained in Ireland, expect that companies will want to cut costs and maintain share price over paying higher costs...

SusanC10

Tenzor07 wrote: »

I recall in previous employment how Finance and HR were in the Process of being moved to Eastern Europe and India, and how Irish senior staff were sent to these countries to train local staff in, who then went on to train their different teams.. So unless there's a legal regulatory reason why 2,000 staff need to be retained in Ireland, expect that companies will want to cut costs and maintain share price over paying higher costs...

I think JDD said she is Public Sector but could be mistaken ?

Quin_Dub

Tenzor07 wrote: »

So you think that's funny or something? Then why would Google open an office in an expensive centrally located area, kit it out to the highest of standards and have facilities available to staff that wouldn't go amiss in a luxury holiday resort?
Why not just open a basic office in an rented building out in Enfield or something?

As an employer why would they pay a premium of wages to a staff member sat at home in Bettystown? Why would they not save 40% and pay someone in central Europe to do the same job? Employers aren't charities who want to pay someone in Ireland more to work at a job in a very competitive Global market...

Of course there has to be flexibility, and even before Covid you'd expect that sort of flexibility when needed.... But my point is, if you're working from home on a more permanent basis then expect a 10% pay cut..

Frankly , that's nonsense. I work for major MNC and have been 100% remote for almost 15 years , at no point has there been any suggestion of any change in pay rates based on the fact that I or anyone else works remote - I get paid at the same scale as everyone else whether I'm in an office or not.

Prior to Covid about 15-20% of our staff globally were considered fully remote (less than 20% of time in the office) with probably 50% plus working at least some of the time from home.

Everyone is paid the same on the basis of the market they are in it's got nothing to do with working remote.

I live about 20/30 minutes drive from the nearest company location and my salary is based on that market (Mid-West region) if I was in Dublin I'd be paid about 10-15% more on the basis of that market.

For people in the Dublin office, if they work remote , their salaries will stay the same if they continue to live in the Dublin area. However if they decided (and got agreement) to relocate to West Kerry or Sligo then their salaries would be adjusted to reflect that marketplace.

Alf Veedersane

Tenzor07 wrote: »

So you think that's funny or something? Then why would Google open an office in an expensive centrally located area, kit it out to the highest of standards and have facilities available to staff that wouldn't go amiss in a luxury holiday resort?
Why not just open a basic office in an rented building out in Enfield or something?

They want to attract the best staff. That's why.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

As an employer why would they pay a premium of wages to a staff member sat at home in Bettystown? Why would they not save 40% and pay someone in central Europe to do the same job? Employers aren't charities who want to pay someone in Ireland more to work at a job in a very competitive Global market...

Because they want that member of staff to work with them. They're paying them based on what they can do for the employer. If they could pay someone in central Europe less to do the same thing, then they would do that regardless of whether you're in Bettystown or the HQ.

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Of course there has to be flexibility, and even before Covid you'd expect that sort of flexibility when needed.... But my point is, if you're working from home on a more permanent basis then expect a 10% pay cut..

If you're doing the same job, producing the same output?

Do the employees who travel to the office get an extra 10% that is being taken from those at home doing the same job by the way?

For someone who said to think like an employer, you're thinking like someone who wants to lose the staff you're trying to attract.

hetuzozaho

6 month plan announced by government

https://www.gov.ie/en/campaigns/resilience-recovery-2020-2021-plan-for-living-with-covid-19/

Level 1 is even encouraging WFH : Work from home if possible.

No mention of returning to city offices yet.

JDD

I worked out that with coffee three days a week, lunch out three days a week, and commuting I was spending about €300 a month. Then add in the odd spontaneous few drinks after work maybe once every six weeks and you're probably adding in another €50 a month. There would have to be a fair whack of a pay cut to actually put me in a worse position. And this whole "oh if you move to a cheaper area, expect a pay cut" only works if you actually move to a cheaper area. Most employers wouldn't apply that across the board. Certainly Facebook wasn't intending to when they said that first.

While I know that certain companies will be locked into leases for a number of years on their office premises, most commercial leases will allow you to sublet a couple of floors. As long as your employer realises that productivity doesn't drop when WFH, they will be happy enough to get that sublet rental, which is an immediate income stream for basically no sacrifice.

And as for "if you can do it from home, what to stop a Bulgarian doing your job?" - I take that with a pinch of salt. Maybe small companies where the owner does all the hiring will put the cost of the staff at the top of their priority list. But most hiring managers will be looking for someone who will be easy to manage, has done nearly the exact same job in their previous employment, will read between the lines on written communications and will be a good fit into the company's culture. Unless the hiring manager gets a cut of whatever saving they make on new hires, you can be sure they'll go for the person in Bettystown over the person in Bucharest every single time.

JDD

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

They want to attract the best staff. That's why.



Because they want that member of staff to work with them. They're paying them based on what they can do for the employer. If they could pay someone in central Europe less to do the same thing, then they would do that regardless of whether you're in Bettystown or the HQ.



If you're doing the same job, producing the same output?

Do the employees who travel to the office get an extra 10% that is being taken from those at home doing the same job by the way?

For someone who said to think like an employer, you're thinking like someone who wants to lose the staff you're trying to attract.

Agreed. And if the employer is saving money on office space, and the employee is paying more for electricity and heating, it would be difficult to impose a pay cut across the board on the basis of cost. Not unless a company had a stated policy of paying a "Dublin premium" to Dublin staff. I could see it happening in London, where nationwide firms would pay a "London bonus" to london based staff. Nothing like that has ever been as explicit in Dublin. For example, financial services firms in Cherrywood never cut staff wages because their staff could now live more cheaply in Wicklow.

Tenzor07

SusanC10 wrote: »

I think JDD said she is Public Sector but could be mistaken ?

It should go without saying that in any of my points about staff competing for jobs Globally or working for companies that are trying to save money, that of course the public service jobs are absolutely excluded

Cina

I'm assuming the level two restrictions mean companies basically have to keep us working from home, apart from essential services, right?

c68zapdsm5i1ru

JDD wrote: »

I worked out that with coffee three days a week, lunch out three days a week, and commuting I was spending about €300 a month. Then add in the odd spontaneous few drinks after work maybe once every six weeks and you're probably adding in another €50 a month. There would have to be a fair whack of a pay cut to actually put me in a worse position. And this whole "oh if you move to a cheaper area, expect a pay cut" only works if you actually move to a cheaper area. Most employers wouldn't apply that across the board. Certainly Facebook wasn't intending to when they said that first.

While I know that certain companies will be locked into leases for a number of years on their office premises, most commercial leases will allow you to sublet a couple of floors. As long as your employer realises that productivity doesn't drop when WFH, they will be happy enough to get that sublet rental, which is an immediate income stream for basically no sacrifice.

And as for "if you can do it from home, what to stop a Bulgarian doing your job?" - I take that with a pinch of salt. Maybe small companies where the owner does all the hiring will put the cost of the staff at the top of their priority list. But most hiring managers will be looking for someone who will be easy to manage, has done nearly the exact same job in their previous employment, will read between the lines on written communications and will be a good fit into the company's culture. Unless the hiring manager gets a cut of whatever saving they make on new hires, you can be sure they'll go for the person in Bettystown over the person in Bucharest every single time.

Agreed. Many companies who have moved jobs abroad have reversed that decision because they under estimated the problems of language, culture and time differences.

Also if a company wants to do this they will do it regardless of whether the staff they think they can replace cheaply are working at home or in the office.

Alf Veedersane

Cina wrote: »

I'm assuming the level two restrictions mean companies basically have to keep us working from home, apart from essential services, right?

"Work from home if possible.
If you can work from home, you are advised to only attend work for essential on-site meetings, inductions and training."

Tenzor07

There's literally pages and pages of articles out there if you Google them stating how those who WFH should expect to be paid 10% less for doing so... It's not like I've plucked this idea out of my back pocket!

Global companies will go anywhere they can hire the qualified staff, the main reason they are here is for tax breaks.
Staff in Central Europe etc. tend to be all University educated, multi-lingual and young, and a lot of them moved to Ireland to take up jobs in the big tech/pharma/finance areas and I'm sure would love the chance to go home and afford to buy a nice house and a decent standard of living. Paying €2,000+ a month to live in a one bed apartment and all the higher costs of living here isn't that appealing.

Again, people should not think they are special just because they live in Ireland, if you're working in a job that can be done Globally then expect to compete with that..

Quin_Dub

Tenzor07 wrote: »

There's literally pages and pages of articles out there if you Google them stating how those who WFH should expect to be paid 10% less for doing so... It's not like I've plucked this idea out of my back pocket!

Global companies will go anywhere they can hire the qualified staff, the main reason they are here is for tax breaks.
Staff in Central Europe etc. tend to be all University educated, multi-lingual and young, and a lot of them moved to Ireland to take up jobs in the big tech/pharma/finance areas and I'm sure would love the chance to go home and afford to buy a nice house and a decent standard of living. Paying €2,000+ a month to live in a one bed apartment and all the higher costs of living here isn't that appealing.

Again, people should not think they are special just because they live in Ireland, if you're working in a job that can be done Globally then expect to compete with that..

Only if you relocate , no one is getting a pay-cut if they stay where they are.

So , if a Continental employee of Google or whoever currently living and working in Dublin asks to move back to the Czech republic or whatever but to continue to work in the same job , then yes , they are likely to have their salary adjusted. If they continue to live in Kilmainham or whatever then nothing is going to change.

hetuzozaho

Tenzor07 wrote: »

There's literally pages and pages of articles out there if you Google them stating how those who WFH should expect to be paid 10% less for doing so... It's not like I've plucked this idea out of my back pocket!

Global companies will go anywhere they can hire the qualified staff, the main reason they are here is for tax breaks.
Staff in Central Europe etc. tend to be all University educated, multi-lingual and young, and a lot of them moved to Ireland to take up jobs in the big tech/pharma/finance areas and I'm sure would love the chance to go home and afford to buy a nice house and a decent standard of living. Paying €2,000+ a month to live in a one bed apartment and all the higher costs of living here isn't that appealing.

Again, people should not think they are special just because they live in Ireland, if you're working in a job that can be done Globally then expect to compete with that..

You're boss has really done a number on you, you need to think more of yourself I think

JDD

Tenzor07 wrote: »

It should go without saying that in any of my points about staff competing for jobs Globally or working for companies that are trying to save money, that of course the public service jobs are absolutely excluded

:pac: You're probably right there.

Look, I don't think the vast majority of firms are move to WFH full time. They'll still want people to come in at least two days a week. For those that apply to work full time from home, they'll probably only allow the high achievers to do that because they won't want to lose them. Google & Facebook are outliers in this case.

So I don't think that the vast majority of office based firms are suddenly going to move entire wings of their organisation to India or Bulgaria. People saying that this whole "allowing flexibility" is suddenly going to put your livelihood in jeopardy I think are panicking. This isn't car manufacturing we're talking about. People don't care about the english communications skills of the person who affixed your steering wheel to your car. People do care about the english communication skills of the person who is trying to get you the best car insurance quote, or is doing your accounting for you, or is consulting on a new way of working. And communication is about so much more than your fluency in English - it's body language and tone and an understanding of cultural references.

Gael23

If they realise they can get people in India to do the same work remotely for half the cost they will jump ship fairly fast