Working From Home Megathread

nearzero

My office has brought back alot of people and I've been working from home since March - again with no issues, productivity up etc, my manager wants me to continue to work from home because of this and there is no need to get me back in. I have an underlying health condition aswell so I dont want to go back in.

I was called into the office last week to meet with HR & I was told in no uncertain terms that I will be returning to the office. I told them it was against the Government guidelines and they wouldnt listen at all. I've called the HSA and spoke with them & they said under no circumstances was anyone who CAN work from home and IS working from home return to an office unless its ESSENTIAL to their role (ie factory worker/delivery driver etc) I was told by HR if I went my GP about my health that would be a whole other conversation about my ability to do my job - I feel totally threatened and this is by HR!!!

Companies just dont care anymore - I wouldnt mind if my productivity or ability to do my job was hindered but its actually the exact opposite!

Mrs OBumble

color_girl wrote: »

I was called into the office last week to meet with HR & I was told in no uncertain terms that I will be returning to the office.!

Did HR say WHEN exactly you would get returning?


There's a big difference between WFH for now and WFH forever.

color_girl

color_girl wrote: »

My office has brought back alot of people and I've been working from home since March - again with no issues, productivity up etc, my manager wants me to continue to work from home because of this and there is no need to get me back in. I have an underlying health condition aswell so I dont want to go back in.

I was called into the office last week to meet with HR & I was told in no uncertain terms that I will be returning to the office. I told them it was against the Government guidelines and they wouldnt listen at all. I've called the HSA and spoke with them & they said under no circumstances was anyone who CAN work from home and IS working from home return to an office unless its ESSENTIAL to their role (ie factory worker/delivery driver etc) I was told by HR if I went my GP about my health that would be a whole other conversation about my ability to do my job - I feel totally threatened and this is by HR!!!

Companies just dont care anymore - I wouldnt mind if my productivity or ability to do my job was hindered but its actually the exact opposite!

How will HR know where you are working? If your manager is happy for you to work from home continue to do so.

I would lay eyes on a HR person once or twice a year they wouldn’t have a clue where I am working or what I’m doing.

nearzero

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Did HR say WHEN exactly you would get returning?


There's a big difference between WFH for now and WFH forever.

I have 4 weeks to return to the office full time. And they want to start bringing me back in this week for a day or so.

nearzero

Aniya Tiny Saucepan wrote: »

How will HR know where you are working? If your manager is happy for you to work from home continue to do so.

I would lay eyes on a HR person once or twice a year they wouldn’t have a clue where I am working or what I’m doing.

Our HR is in the office full time!

color_girl

color_girl wrote: »

Our HR is in the office full time!

So is ours but on the other side of the building you would never come across them unless you go looking for them.

Are you saying they go around checking who is in? God I couldn’t handle that it’s like primary school.

nearzero

Aniya Tiny Saucepan wrote: »

So is ours but on the other side of the building you would never come across them unless you go looking for them.

Are you saying they go around checking who is in? God I couldn’t handle that it’s like primary school.

Oh god yeah... she would make it her business to find out if you are in or not, its worse than school. The offices part of our building isnt that big so you would generally know who it in but I just cant understand the logic.

I'm an at risk person, I'm working fine from home - but they want me back in?? Dont get it and making me feel so stressed and quite frankly panicky about going in. I'm normally not an anxious person but they would drive you to it.

El Gato De Negocios

My employer has stated they do not expect a presence back in the office until the end of January next at the earliest which is great, I haven't been in since before paddys day though i do have to go in tomorrow to do system updates on my laptop. Dont mind at all though. Im very lucky longer term though as I am in the process of planning to build a house in my home county which is approx 1.5 hours away from my job in Dublin. My direct line manager has told me he is happy to agree that i can WFH long term at least 3 days a week, maybe more when(if) c19 settles down. TBH c19 has been something of a blessing in disguise because I doubt Id have been granted that level of flexibility had WFH not been the norm for the last 6 months. If I was in the office full time building at all wouldnt have been on the radar so I do feel fortunate in that respect.

SusanC10

color_girl wrote: »

My office has brought back alot of people and I've been working from home since March - again with no issues, productivity up etc, my manager wants me to continue to work from home because of this and there is no need to get me back in. I have an underlying health condition aswell so I dont want to go back in.

I was called into the office last week to meet with HR & I was told in no uncertain terms that I will be returning to the office. I told them it was against the Government guidelines and they wouldnt listen at all. I've called the HSA and spoke with them & they said under no circumstances was anyone who CAN work from home and IS working from home return to an office unless its ESSENTIAL to their role (ie factory worker/delivery driver etc) I was told by HR if I went my GP about my health that would be a whole other conversation about my ability to do my job - I feel totally threatened and this is by HR!!!

Companies just dont care anymore - I wouldnt mind if my productivity or ability to do my job was hindered but its actually the exact opposite!

Is the Office in Dublin?

nearzero

SusanC10 wrote: »

Is the Office in Dublin?

Nope but just outside Dublin. Level 2 guidelines still state work from home, regardless.

Quin_Dub

If your manager supports you working from home , then they should be the ones tackling HR , not you to be honest.

You don't report to the HR person , your manager is the one that has given you permission to continue to WFH and if anyone else is challenging that you should go back through your manager.

Have you had the conversation with your manager yet?

nearzero

Quin_Dub wrote: »

If your manager supports you working from home , then they should be the ones tackling HR , not you to be honest.

You don't report to the HR person , your manager is the one that has given you permission to continue to WFH and if anyone else is challenging that you should go back through your manager.

Have you had the conversation with your manager yet?

Honestly I didnt even think of it that way around until you just said it. It seems our HR has way too much power I dont think my manager will be given that authority or allowance to challenge them, the way HR kept putting it to me was it was a business decision and that was the end of it.

J Mysterio

Shawn Sparse Sunstroke wrote: »

Managers like that are a bloody menace, putting their own insecure need to control and micro manage ahead of public health and safety.

Fully agreed. I had a manager like that in a previous and he was a pain in the arse.

Funny thing is that company are all fully WFH now.

color_girl

color_girl wrote: »

I was called into the office last week to meet with HR & I was told in no uncertain terms that I will be returning to the office. I told them it was against the Government guidelines and they wouldnt listen at all. I've called the HSA and spoke with them & they said under no circumstances was anyone who CAN work from home and IS working from home return to an office unless its ESSENTIAL to their role (ie factory worker/delivery driver etc)

I was told by HR if I went my GP about my health that would be a whole other conversation about my ability to do my job - I feel totally threatened and this is by HR!!!

I have heard a similar story from at least three different people in the last few days - that vulnerable employees who should remain WFH are being bullied by their employers with threats over their fitness to do their jobs being held over their head, if they cite their underlying conditions as reason to remain WFH.

Yoga7

A similar situation happening in a company I know of which is in Dublin and is choosing to ignore the guidelines.

The view being that if schools are back and we can still meet people socially, what harm is it being in the office.

In my opinion, this ultimately comes down to a lack of trust and nothing else. Why else force people to come into an office when the work can be done remotely and there has been no performance issues over the last 6 months?

I wish these companies/managers would wake up and realise that everyone has a part to play in all of this. Those who can do their work from home should stay at home, to make it safer for those who have no choice but to go out into the community everyday.

I've been following this thread for a while to try to get a sense of what other companies approach to WFH has been. For the most part, it does seem that employers are being reasonable. However, there are clearly a few who are choosing to ignore the guidelines and force staff in against their will.
I'm relieved to hear that the HSA were clear in their advice because there seems to be very little support out there for people in this situation. I'm sure most companies who are ignoring gov guidelines expect any discontentment among staff will be brushed under the rug.

Quin_Dub

Deleted User wrote: »

I have heard a similar story from at least three different people in the last few days - that vulnerable employees who should remain WFH are being bullied by their employers with threats over their fitness to do their jobs being held over their head, if they cite their underlying conditions as reason to remain WFH.

Surely that would open them up to the possibility of Constructive Dismissal cases going to court?

For example , someone having well managed COPD is not a hindrance to them doing their job , but forcing them to travel to/from the office etc. during a timeframe where Government advise is to stay home is surely going to put them the wrong side of the legal position?

We're not talking about longer term WFH when everything is back to normal, we're talking about when the entire country is subject to at least some degree of restriction due to a Pandemic.

inthenip

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I have heard a similar story from at least three different people in the last few days - that vulnerable employees who should remain WFH are being bullied by their employers with threats over their fitness to do their jobs being held over their head, if they cite their underlying conditions as reason to remain WFH.

Worked in places like that where managers, owners and HR acted like Their **** don'ts stink and had huge egos and think there in a position of power.

Work in a place now which is the complete opposite,employs 7000 people and we won't be back to office till March at the earliest and only if Level 1 goes away.

The managers do their best for us and anyone with an ego won't get their probation extended.

We'll be allowed two days working from home when it's all back to normal.

nearzero

Quin_Dub wrote: »

We're not talking about longer term WFH when everything is back to normal, we're talking about when the entire country is subject to at least some degree of restriction due to a Pandemic.

This is interesting because is also how the threat was levelled at me, I was told my position was not a 'WFH position' so therefore if I didnt come back to work they would make my position untenable (not in so many words but strong implication). It was very intimidating - I had no representation at the meeting as I was told it was only a 'chat'. But next time I will be asking for a witness to the meeting.


They gave us a counselling phone number which I've called and expressed my concerns and how anxious I am feeling about returning to the office given my health - they did say to involve me GP in terms of supporting my anxiety and not my 'health condition' as the the anxiety is also temporary due to global Pandemic and not a general inability to do my job which is good advice considering the view of the company.

Also the issue of liability - the HSA said that if they ask you return to work against guidelines and with the knowledge of an underlying health condition, it leaves them open liability.

Kiith

Is there anything stopping someone moving to another country for the next 3-6 months, and keeping their Irish job and working remotely? Do you have to pay taxes in both countries or anything like that? Wife and I were considering moving somewhere warmer when our lease runs up in December.

Quin_Dub

color_girl wrote: »

This is interesting because is also how the threat was levelled at me, I was told my position was not a 'WFH position' so therefore if I didnt come back to work they would make my position untenable (not in so many words but strong implication). It was very intimidating - I had no representation at the meeting as I was told it was only a 'chat'. But next time I will be asking for a witness to the meeting.


They gave us a counselling phone number which I've called and expressed my concerns and how anxious I am feeling about returning to the office given my health - they did say to involve me GP in terms of supporting my anxiety and not my 'health condition' as the the anxiety is also temporary due to global Pandemic and not a general inability to do my job which is good advice considering the view of the company.

Did they give any insight into the criteria used to determine that your role is not "WFH" suitable?

For example in my company they put every employee into 1 of 4 Categories , where Category 1 meant that you absolutely had to be in the building to do your job (typically people in Manufacturing , Shipping, Engineering etc.) and Category 4 meant location was utterly independent of the ability to do the job.

Almost all "office" workers fell into Category 4 , a few drifted into Category 3 where they needed to be in the office for a specific task (a weekly Large scale data processing task or the like) but the rest they could do from anywhere.

Given that you have been working from home for the last 6 months without any major issue would seem to suggest that any criteria they might have used are likely to be pretty weak?

Ask them for the criteria they used in making the decision and whether it was based on the actual role or if they were also using other criteria - I don't know anything about you , but for example are they saying you aren't suitable for WFH because you are too new or too junior or something or is it purely the tasks required for your role?

nearzero

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Did they give any insight into the criteria used to determine that your role is not "WFH" suitable?

For example in my company they put every employee into 1 of 4 Categories , where Category 1 meant that you absolutely had to be in the building to do your job (typically people in Manufacturing , Shipping, Engineering etc.) and Category 4 meant location was utterly independent of the ability to do the job.

Almost all "office" workers fell into Category 4 , a few drifted into Category 3 where they needed to be in the office for a specific task (a weekly Large scale data processing task or the like) but the rest they could do from anywhere.

Given that you have been working from home for the last 6 months without any major issue would seem to suggest that any criteria they might have used are likely to be pretty weak?

Ask them for the criteria they used in making the decision and whether it was based on the actual role or if they were also using other criteria - I don't know anything about you , but for example are they saying you aren't suitable for WFH because you are too new or too junior or something or is it purely the tasks required for your role?

That sounds like a very sensible approach from your company and our place would be structured the same, some roles like our production would be essential to be in the building.

You see this is the problem - they wouldnt entertain my questions, I got shut down when I asked anything in relation to why. When I asked for examples of any issues, there wasnt any (because my manager has already told them I'm working very well from home), when I asked why I was 'needed' back in the office, I wasnt given an answer just that 'this was a decision made for the business and its what is going to happen'. I know they dont have any robust procedures or process in place for WFH because it has never happened before but the Government is supporting companies in formulating all of that as it is a temporary situation.

Thats a very good point - the role does function independently from anywhere, I do work with a team, and we do need to have group meetings which have been working fine for brainstorming or any level of creativity is working fine. The rest of the team members still have to isolate themselves in the office to join meetings via individual computers because they arent allowed in a meeting room together so it literally would change nothing, we still arent allowed in the same room as each other anyway. I've been with the company for a good number of years and I'm not required to manage anyone or anything, the tasks are all completed exactly as they were before, with more speed and comprehension according to my manager as I've less distractions.

I got no constructive answers, all I got in a very repetitive and 'dont push us on this' manner was that it was the decision that was made for the good of the company, and that was the end of it.

El Gato De Negocios

Kiith wrote: »

Is there anything stopping someone moving to another country for the next 3-6 months, and keeping their Irish job and working remotely? Do you have to pay taxes in both countries or anything like that? Wife and I were considering moving somewhere warmer when our lease runs up in December.

Not Covid related but I know a guy that did this in January. His employer allowed him to keep his job (admin based) and he and his missus relocated to Barcelona. Main reason was the cost of living as in they were spending a fortune on rent. I believe his o/h is Irish and is TEFL over there.

Kiith

El Gato De Negocios wrote: »

Not Covid related but I know a guy that did this in January. His employer allowed him to keep his job (admin based) and he and his missus relocated to Barcelona. Main reason was the cost of living as in they were spending a fortune on rent. I believe his o/h is Irish and is TEFL over there.

Thats what i was thinking. We could stay in a family home in Sicily, pay little to no rent for a few months, and i'd still be able to work away as normal. Just not sure what the legality of it is, from a tax point of view. Probably a Tax forum question tbf.

uli84

Kiith wrote: »

Is there anything stopping someone moving to another country for the next 3-6 months, and keeping their Irish job and working remotely? Do you have to pay taxes in both countries or anything like that? Wife and I were considering moving somewhere warmer when our lease runs up in December.

In my company if the contract doesn’t state it is allowed then it isn’t, silly I know, pretty sure most of the HRs would be against it. You can sure try and not tell anyone but that’s risky

Patsy167

uli84 wrote: »

In my company if the contract doesn’t state it is allowed then it isn’t, silly I know, pretty sure most of the HRs would be against it. You can sure try and not tell anyone but that’s risky

This may be of interest - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53524486

Polar101

Kiith wrote: »

Thats what i was thinking. We could stay in a family home in Sicily, pay little to no rent for a few months, and i'd still be able to work away as normal. Just not sure what the legality of it is, from a tax point of view. Probably a Tax forum question tbf.

You might get double taxed depending on the duration as well - but if there is a double taxation agreement between the countries, then you only pay where you work (I assume Italy has an agreement with Ireland). Anyway, I don't know much about that.

My company is preventing everyone from working abroad, because lot of the staff are non-nationals.. so they'd just move back to their own country and work from there, while looking for other work. I think it's a silly policy, but there you go.

uli84

Patsy167 wrote: »

This may be of interest - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53524486

Thanks, it’s a bit nonsense though- Barbados-surely at a minimum the employer would expect me to work in the same/similar timezone

Quin_Dub

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Surely that would open them up to the possibility of Constructive Dismissal cases going to court?

For example , someone having well managed COPD is not a hindrance to them doing their job , but forcing them to travel to/from the office etc. during a timeframe where Government advise is to stay home is surely going to put them the wrong side of the legal position?

We're not talking about longer term WFH when everything is back to normal, we're talking about when the entire country is subject to at least some degree of restriction due to a Pandemic.

Maybe it will lead to cases down the road.

Eric Cartman

Kiith wrote: »

Is there anything stopping someone moving to another country for the next 3-6 months, and keeping their Irish job and working remotely? Do you have to pay taxes in both countries or anything like that? Wife and I were considering moving somewhere warmer when our lease runs up in December.

theres nothing stopping you doing that, if its a smaller company id say go for it, know a lad who handed back the keys to his 2k apartment in Dublin 4 and has moved to tramore overlooking the sea for 600 a month now till next year. Know of another couple who went to Ibiza at the end of march and got a villa overlooking the sea for 180 a week because the seasons dead , there till November. Both kept Irish Dublin wages but living like kings,

however Ive heard stories of some multinationals reducing the salaries of Spanish and polish staff who went home to match those in their offices in those locations, meaning theres little to be gained for them bar perhaps some sun.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

color_girl wrote: »

That sounds like a very sensible approach from your company and our place would be structured the same, some roles like our production would be essential to be in the building.

You see this is the problem - they wouldnt entertain my questions, I got shut down when I asked anything in relation to why. When I asked for examples of any issues, there wasnt any (because my manager has already told them I'm working very well from home), when I asked why I was 'needed' back in the office, I wasnt given an answer just that 'this was a decision made for the business and its what is going to happen'. I know they dont have any robust procedures or process in place for WFH because it has never happened before but the Government is supporting companies in formulating all of that as it is a temporary situation.

Thats a very good point - the role does function independently from anywhere, I do work with a team, and we do need to have group meetings which have been working fine for brainstorming or any level of creativity is working fine. The rest of the team members still have to isolate themselves in the office to join meetings via individual computers because they arent allowed in a meeting room together so it literally would change nothing, we still arent allowed in the same room as each other anyway. I've been with the company for a good number of years and I'm not required to manage anyone or anything, the tasks are all completed exactly as they were before, with more speed and comprehension according to my manager as I've less distractions.

I got no constructive answers, all I got in a very repetitive and 'dont push us on this' manner was that it was the decision that was made for the good of the company, and that was the end of it.

I think you should contact the dept of enterprise, trade and employment. They have an employment rights area who might be able to give you advice on this. Apart from anything else, veiled threats that they will use your medical condition against you puts your company on very thin ice.