Working From Home Megathread

Nermal

FrStone wrote: »

It does, but it also mentions that the 183 rule doesn't apply if you create a permanent establishment.

I'm not saying that booking an AirBNB for a couple of months and bringing a laptop could never be construed as permanent establishment... but it's quite a stretch.

But from an employer's point of view, I understand why it's simpler to forbid it entirely, to reduce risk.

Stheno

Cushtie wrote: »

It is essential to the running of the company.

How come it wasn't essential last March when you wfh full time?

Flit clicker

If this new idea where working from home becomes a right, what’s stopping a person in (for example, Bratislava) applying for a job in Dublin and working and living there in software and taking the job from a person who lives in walking distance of the building and thus removing the cash from the Irish economy.

a_squirrelman

Stheno wrote: »

How come it wasn't essential last March when you wfh full time?

Wtf. The poster is working from home part of the time.
If something needs doing in the office why are you hassling them.
There are companies forcing their staff to come in FULL TIME when it is totally unnecessary. Why not focus your anger at them?

Stheno

a_squirrelman wrote: »

Wtf. The poster is working from home part of the time.
If something needs doing in the office why are you hassling them.
There are companies forcing their staff to come in FULL TIME when it is totally unnecessary. Why not focus your anger at them?

The poster said they wfh full time in March but now its essential they go in three days a week

All I asked is what changed?

a_squirrelman

Stheno wrote: »

The poster said they wfh full time in March but now its essential they go in three days a week

All I asked is what changed?

Maybe they got new duties. Maybe someone quit and they need to maintain some systems or hardware or whatever.
Sure they can send their job description over to you as well so you can check everything is in order.

ToxicPaddy

Flit clicker wrote: »

If this new idea where working from home becomes a right, what’s stopping a person in (for example, Bratislava) applying for a job in Dublin and working and living there in software and taking the job from a person who lives in walking distance of the building and thus removing the cash from the Irish economy.

Because some companies are insisting people stay tax resident in the country they are employed, In this case Ireland, as they don't want the hassle of going through all the tax rules etc of employees in multiple countries.

However large multinational companies such as Google are doing that and employing them under that countries local offices.

Flit clicker

ToxicPaddy wrote: »

Because some companies are insisting people stay tax resident in the country they are employed, In this case Ireland, as they don't want the hassle of going through all the tax rules etc of employees in multiple countries.

However large multinational companies such as Google are doing that and employing them under that countries local offices.

Does that not undermine the spirit of the EU?

Plenty of people live in Germany and work in Luxembourg or work in wealthy Helsinki and get the ferry daily and live in cheaper Tallinn.

I spent years working in NI and living in ROI.

An Ri rua

UK government agency the worst superspreader:-

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/23/minister-faces-fury-over-mass-covid-outbreak-at-top-government-agency?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

c68zapdsm5i1ru

a_squirrelman wrote: »

Maybe they got new duties. Maybe someone quit and they need to maintain some systems or hardware or whatever.
Sure they can send their job description over to you as well so you can check everything is in order.

Why so aggressive.

If everyone behaved like that poster and his employer covid would be rampant in workplaces. The restrictions clearly state that only essential workers should be attending the workplace and even then only if the work can't be done from home.

Irish_rat

Stheno wrote: »

The poster said they wfh full time in March but now its essential they go in three days a week

All I asked is what changed?

I have a job where I WFH and go on site. During certain parts of a project I need to be onsite often but other periods I can work from home for a long period.

If you need to access a certain setup at work you need to go in once the groundwork is done in software.

Irish_rat

Shawn Sparse Sunstroke wrote: »

Apparently traffic into Dublin City centre is back up
to 60 per cent of pre covid times. Some people, both employers and employees are obviously still not getting the message.

We get the message from your posts

skyway

I can see the whole work-from-home model becoming a lot more fluid in the coming years whereby the actual "home" location is not really important. Some countries are already offering "digital nomad visas" to remote workers:

https://www.traveloffpath.com/countries-with-digital-nomad-visas-the-complete-list/

You can add the Canaries to that list too as this made the news here last Nov:

https://english.elpais.com/economy_and_business/2020-11-10/not-just-a-tourist-destination-why-spains-canary-islands-are-hoping-to-attract-30000-remote-workers.html

I guess the greater spending power of remote workers (versus tourists) over a longer period of time is the main reason why some countries are beginning to adopt this model. I think the program could become especially attractive to younger, single people who have a travel itch but still want to continue to work.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Irish_rat wrote: »

We get the message from your posts

Good.

namloc1980

skyway wrote: »

I can see the whole work-from-home model becoming a lot more fluid in the coming years whereby the actual "home" location is not really important. Some countries are already offering "digital nomad visas" to remote workers:

https://www.traveloffpath.com/countries-with-digital-nomad-visas-the-complete-list/

You can add the Canaries to that list too as this made the news here last Nov:

https://english.elpais.com/economy_and_business/2020-11-10/not-just-a-tourist-destination-why-spains-canary-islands-are-hoping-to-attract-30000-remote-workers.html

I guess the greater spending power of remote workers (versus tourists) over a longer period of time is the main reason why some countries are beginning to adopt this model. I think the program could become especially attractive to younger, single people who have a travel itch but still want to continue to work.

Remote working in a different country is a very complex area. There are significant tax implications for both employees and employers as well as different workers rights and employment laws. For instance if you work for an Irish company but you move to Spain and work remotely, that company may now be deemed to have a Spanish operation and be subject to Spanish tax and employment laws. What if you have a dispute with your employer, Spanish employment laws could come into the equation. Not to mention the tax situation.

It's not as straight forward as just upping sticks and heading off.

namloc1980

Flit clicker wrote: »

Does that not undermine the spirit of the EU?

Plenty of people live in Germany and work in Luxembourg or work in wealthy Helsinki and get the ferry daily and live in cheaper Tallinn.

I spent years working in NI and living in ROI.

That's a completely different scenario. In those cases you are living in one jurisdiction but you physically go to work in the jurisdiction of your job. The scenario being discussed is being employed by a company in say Ireland, but actually working remotely in Slovakia. That brings up all sorts of tax, corporate and employment law complications that a lot of companies are not going to dabble in. Outside of the extremely large multinational companies who are already present in multiple countries, it's a very complex and costly area to get involved in.

RacoonQueen

Flit clicker wrote: »

Does that not undermine the spirit of the EU?

Plenty of people live in Germany and work in Luxembourg or work in wealthy Helsinki and get the ferry daily and live in cheaper Tallinn.

I spent years working in NI and living in ROI.

If you spend x amount of time in one country you have to pay tax in that country, even if it is within the EU. So can be a lot of work for payroll and in some countries (maybe outside EU?) in order to be able to sort tax for an employee in that country you have to officially set up a company there.
Pre-Covid we had people go 'self employed' and have to sort their own tax etc in order to move country and still stay working for us as it was too much hassle for payroll otherwise.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

An Ri rua wrote: »

UK government agency the worst superspreader:-

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/23/minister-faces-fury-over-mass-covid-outbreak-at-top-government-agency?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Echoes what people were saying upthread about controlling managers in the public sector. Pretty shocking behaviour from the DVLA. They even sent sick leave warnings to people who had to take time off due to covid. Crazy.

namloc1980

Fireball81 wrote: »

Anyone bothered claiming the tax relief on WFH?

Employer is not paying the €3.20 per day directly, doing it through ROS means its peanuts

Sure did. Took about 10 mins to tot up my gas, electricity and broadband bills and put it into the Revenue App. Works out at a tax credit of about €60. Not massive but for 10 minutes work, my question is why wouldn't you claim it??

skyway

namloc1980 wrote: »

Remote working in a different country is a very complex area. There are significant tax implications for both employees and employers as well as different workers rights and employment laws. For instance if you work for an Irish company but you move to Spain and work remotely, that company may now be deemed to have a Spanish operation and be subject to Spanish tax and employment laws. What if you have a dispute with your employer, Spanish employment laws could come into the equation. Not to mention the tax situation.

It's not as straight forward as just upping sticks and heading off.

Agreed. However, one would think that the Ts&Cs of these visas, would, at least to some extent, make allowances for such scenarios. Otherwise, it would indeed be a messy minefield...

AndrewJRenko

Some interesting views from Irish legal expert;

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/change-to-remote-working-would-raise-a-range-of-legal-issues-expert-says-1.4459519

strandroad

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Some interesting views from Irish legal expert;

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/change-to-remote-working-would-raise-a-range-of-legal-issues-expert-says-1.4459519

I'm not sure how this is a problem:

One of the areas where greater clarity is needed, she said, was in relation to the legal obligation to record the hours during which an employee was working.
“It’s much trickier if you have employees who are working remotely,” she said. “If the Workplace Relations Commission (WRC) is doing a workplace inspection, it would expect to see records.”

Employees can fill timesheets, daily or weekly, which can be used in any dealings with the WRC. It's an established practice in many companies already where employees are not 100% on site, and sometimes even then (for project tracking).

AndrewJRenko

strandroad wrote: »

I'm not sure how this is a problem:



Employees can fill timesheets, daily or weekly, which can be used in any dealings with the WRC. It's an established practice in many companies already where employees are not 100% on site, and sometimes even then (for project tracking).

I guess the problem is the complete lack of supervision. Even when employees are not on the employer site, they are generally on someone else's site, probably the site of the business that is paying for them - so there is generally some degree of supervision or oversight that is ensuring that people are present and working.

In the WFH situation, there is no supervision.

strandroad

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I guess the problem is the complete lack of supervision. Even when employees are not on the employer site, they are generally on someone else's site, probably the site of the business that is paying for them - so there is generally some degree of supervision or oversight that is ensuring that people are present and working.

In the WFH situation, there is no supervision.

Is there not? Even in the current situation, how many employees WFH are working without any contact with their leads or without their work being reviewed? It's up to the company to have internal policies on such issues to make sure that there is enough contact or work reviews to have trust in timesheets provided. Same thing as regular work for a lead in another location really.

namloc1980

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I guess the problem is the complete lack of supervision. Even when employees are not on the employer site, they are generally on someone else's site, probably the site of the business that is paying for them - so there is generally some degree of supervision or oversight that is ensuring that people are present and working.

In the WFH situation, there is no supervision.

To be honest, if you can't keep track of employee productivity WFH, then you probably aren't able to do it effectively on site either. What you're talking about points to a lack of appropriate MI and KPIs rather than where the employee is sitting.

AndrewJRenko

Mr.S wrote: »

There's only no supervision if the employer choses that. There are a tone of "productivity analytics" solutions out there that can monitor employees to give you an overview of what they do. It's very Big Brother, and I wouldn't want to work from an employer that does it, but it does exist, even prior to COVID.

If someone isn't working from home, you notice fairly quickly even without proper monitoring. Plus, it's not like on-site supervision is much better, someone physically at a desk doesn't mean they're working.

If records are needed, timesheets are fairly common. A simple tick the box to confirm you completed a full work day, or more if overtime is paid.

namloc1980 wrote: »

To be honest, if you can't keep track of employee productivity WFH, then you probably aren't able to do it effectively on site either. What you're talking about points to a lack of appropriate MI and KPIs rather than where the employee is sitting.

strandroad wrote: »

Is there not? Even in the current situation, how many employees WFH are working without any contact with their leads or without their work being reviewed? It's up to the company to have internal policies on such issues to make sure that there is enough contact or work reviews to have trust in timesheets provided. Same thing as regular work for a lead in another location really.

I don't disagree with the thrust of your posts about productivity and supervision, but tracking working hours isn't about productivity, line management contact, work completed.

Tracking working hours is about knowing what time they started, what time they finished, and how long they took for lunch and other breaks.

WFH presents challenges in tracking working hours.

Cushtie

Stheno wrote: »

How come it wasn't essential last March when you wfh full time?

Last March, the entire company was closed and I was working from home to keep things "ticking over" in the background, accounts, payroll etc. This time most of the business is classed as Essential so we are open. Only one dept is fully closed.

Cushtie

Shawn Sparse Sunstroke wrote: »

Why so aggressive.

If everyone behaved like that poster and his employer covid would be rampant in workplaces. The restrictions clearly state that only essential workers should be attending the workplace and even then only if the work can't be done from home.

And that is exactly the case. I'm not going to go into chapter and verse about my job!

namloc1980

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I don't disagree with the thrust of your posts about productivity and supervision, but tracking working hours isn't about productivity, line management contact, work completed.

Tracking working hours is about knowing what time they started, what time they finished, and how long they took for lunch and other breaks.

WFH presents challenges in tracking working hours.

I have never worked in an environment where the time I took for breaks was tracked. I wouldn't want to either. Sounds like a nightmare working environment where the boss has the stopwatch out when you go to the toilet. I have a team of 15 people working at home. I monitor their productivity, not how many times, or for how long, they went to the kitchen for a cup of tea.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Cushtie wrote: »

And that is exactly the case. I'm not going to go into chapter and verse about my job!

No one's asking you to. If your work is classified by the Government as essential and you can't do certain parts of it from home then you're not in breach of regulations by going in.

The issue is with employers who are bringing staff into the workplace to do work that is not officially classified as essential, or employees who are going in to the office simply because they want to, are bored at home etc etc