Working From Home Megathread

AndrewJRenko

namloc1980 wrote: »

I have never worked in an environment where the time I took for breaks was tracked. I wouldn't want to either. Sounds like a nightmare working environment where the boss has the stopwatch out when you go to the toilet. I have a team of 15 people working at home. I monitor their productivity, not how many times, or for how long, they went to the kitchen for a cup of tea.

Good for you, The problem for HR people is that they could end up facing a claim from one of your employees in two years time saying that you overworked them so they never got their statutory breaks.

When this happens in an office situation, there is generally some local knowledge that allows them to say 'but sure yer man was the first one to the canteen and the last one to leave at break time. In a WFH situation, no-one can say anything about what breaks he did or didn't get.

This is one of the dilemmas of WFH for HR purposes - there is a legal obligation to monitor working breaks, regardless of how progressive individual managers are.

Mrs OBumble

namloc1980 wrote: »

I have never worked in an environment where the time I took for breaks was tracked. I wouldn't want to either. Sounds like a nightmare working environment where the boss has the stopwatch out when you go to the toilet. I have a team of 15 people working at home. I monitor their productivity, not how many times, or for how long, they went to the kitchen for a cup of tea.

Which is great, until one of them gets annoyed with you over something, and puts in a complaint to the WRC. They inspect, and you've got zero records to show that staff were getting minimum legal breaks. So you get fined.

Or maybe until one of your staff starts being not quite so productive. Is it because they've got slack, or more difficult projects, or perhaps they are getting sick or have some serious family problem? How do you tell? Do you really want to become know as the manager who fired the guy whose wife had cancer?

strandroad

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Which is great, until one of them gets annoyed with you over something, and puts in a complaint to the WRC. They inspect, and you've got zero records to show that staff were getting minimum legal breaks. So you get fined.

We've had remote staff for years and no one monitors their breaks. Highly regulated environment too, with detailed policies on data etc. I'm not privy to the innards of it but demonstrably it can be done.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Or maybe until one of your staff starts being not quite so productive. Is it because they've got slack, or more difficult projects, or perhaps they are getting sick or have some serious family problem? How do you tell? Do you really want to become know as the manager who fired the guy whose wife had cancer?

You communicate with them, that's how you know. No time tracker, on site or remote, will tell the manager that the employee has family problems.

bunnyboxer

I reallly pity the companies some people work in. I worked in one or two horrible offices when starting off in my career and now i can see why they struggle to retain or attract staff. Old style thinking.

My company employs 8,000 and we had flexi time and work from home two days a week long before Covid started. Now grant not everyone could avail of this due to their roles but its there. We also had flexi time.

Flexi time is fantastic, i usually start at 10.30 on a Wednesday and get an extra two hours sleep as feel myself getting drained on a Thursday and Friday.

Flexi time going to be introduced for a lot of people as well. We fill in time sheets every day which take approx 10 mins of what we were working on for the day and calls we were on.

Dyr

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

When this happens in an office situation, there is generally some local knowledge that allows them to say 'but sure yer man was the first one to the canteen and the last one to leave at break time. In a WFH situation, no-one can say anything about what breaks he did or didn't get.
.

I assume you've seen this "but sure your man..." scenario play out in the WRC?

Nah course, you havent.

The level of theoretical contortionism going on here is fairly impressive.

namloc1980

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Which is great, until one of them gets annoyed with you over something, and puts in a complaint to the WRC. They inspect, and you've got zero records to show that staff were getting minimum legal breaks. So you get fined.

Or maybe until one of your staff starts being not quite so productive. Is it because they've got slack, or more difficult projects, or perhaps they are getting sick or have some serious family problem? How do you tell? Do you really want to become know as the manager who fired the guy whose wife had cancer?

Are you telling me you work in an office where everyone's breaks are tracked and recorded? That's sounds insane. Never heard of that.

How do you tell? By communicating with them. If you can't communicate effectively with your team WFH, then you're probably not communicating effectively with them in the office either.

The scenarios being thrown out here are ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. All they demonstrate to me is that micro-managers are struggling with WFH because they can't monitor every little thing their staff do.

namloc1980

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Good for you, The problem for HR people is that they could end up facing a claim from one of your employees in two years time saying that you overworked them so they never got their statutory breaks.

When this happens in an office situation, there is generally some local knowledge that allows them to say 'but sure yer man was the first one to the canteen and the last one to leave at break time. In a WFH situation, no-one can say anything about what breaks he did or didn't get.

This is one of the dilemmas of WFH for HR purposes - there is a legal obligation to monitor working breaks, regardless of how progressive individual managers are.

They could do that in the office just as well.

Does you manager stand over you when you eat your sandwich at lunchtime, you know, to monitor your break? Very weird thinking in this thread. I'd absolutely hate to work where you guys do as everything appears to be monitored. Horrible work environment.

questionmark?

namloc1980 wrote: »

Are you telling me you work in an office where everyone's breaks are tracked and recorded? That's sounds insane. Never heard of that.
.

To be fair I believe the poster when they say that. At the start of my career the first two companies I worked with tracked our breaks. Going outside your breaks by even a minute resulted in a verbal warning, keep doing it and it was a written warning. I would also add it wasn't some call centre where its common but two large orgs in the finance world. Thankfully older and experienced now and not a chance I would even consider working for a company that was that petty now.

namloc1980

questionmark? wrote: »

To be fair I believe the poster when they say that. At the start of my career the first two companies I worked with tracked our breaks. Going outside your breaks by even a minute resulted in a verbal warning, keep doing it and it was a written warning. I would also add it wasn't some call centre where its common but two large orgs in the finance world. Thankfully older and experienced now and not a chance I would even consider working for a company that was that petty now.

Honestly never heard of it outside of call centres which are notorious for it. Would hate working in such an environment. Awful.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Which is great, until one of them gets annoyed with you over something, and puts in a complaint to the WRC. They inspect, and you've got zero records to show that staff were getting minimum legal breaks. So you get fined.

Or maybe until one of your staff starts being not quite so productive. Is it because they've got slack, or more difficult projects, or perhaps they are getting sick or have some serious family problem? How do you tell? Do you really want to become know as the manager who fired the guy whose wife had cancer?

What kind of managers do you work for?

Irish Gunner

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Where exactly do you enter the utility bill totals on Revenue.ie?

See below what i got from Revenue

You do not need to provide the bills, and our system calculates the actual relief once you input only the full bill amounts and days worked at home; however, you may be selected to have a claim verified. It is then a good idea to upload the receipts to the Receipts Tracker on MyAccount. There is unlimited space in the tracker but receipts need to uploaded one at a time.

In relation to your query, when you make the claim (detailed below), you are prompted to enter only the full amount of electric/gas, the full amount of broadband, and the number of days worked at home. Our system then calculates the actual relief due and applies the correct percentage.

The total amount to be claimed you calculate as: (Allowable bills x No. of e-working days / 365) x 10%.

The total Amount Claimed is to be input on your 2020 income tax return:

Sign into MyAccount;

Click on 'Review your Tax 2017-2020' link in PAYE Services;

Select to Submit the 'Income Tax return' for the relevant tax year; ie 2020

Select 'Your Job' in the 'Tax Credits and Reliefs' page, click on 'Remote Working' and insert the amount of expense in the 'Amount Claimed' field.

Once submitted the resulting Statement of Liability will issue and be available to view via MyDocuments. Any rebate due will be issued shortly thereafter.

questionmark?

namloc1980 wrote: »

Honestly never heard of it outside of call centres which are notorious for it. Would hate working in such an environment. Awful.

It was awful. Always felt watched and it achieved nothing but resentment amongst staff and hence people clock watched and left on the stroke of 5 as the attitude was if they won't give me a minute I won't give them one.

bunnyboxer

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Which is great, until one of them gets annoyed with you over something, and puts in a complaint to the WRC. They inspect, and you've got zero records to show that staff were getting minimum legal breaks. So you get fined.

Or maybe until one of your staff starts being not quite so productive. Is it because they've got slack, or more difficult projects, or perhaps they are getting sick or have some serious family problem? How do you tell? Do you really want to become know as the manager who fired the guy whose wife had cancer?

I actually feel sorry for you. You must work in a very small company from the 80s.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I don't disagree with the thrust of your posts about productivity and supervision, but tracking working hours isn't about productivity, line management contact, work completed.

Tracking working hours is about knowing what time they started, what time they finished, and how long they took for lunch and other breaks.

WFH presents challenges in tracking working hours.

I don't know what your department is doing, but in mine we still have to use the online flexi clock and clock in and out, morning, lunch and evening, so all of the above is recorded and tracked in exactly the same way as it was pre-covid.

The only exception is "other breaks" - which I assume you mean the morning 15 minute break, which was never formally recorded even pre-covid - not in my current dept or any government dept I've ever worked in.

capefear

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Which is great, until one of them gets annoyed with you over something, and puts in a complaint to the WRC. They inspect, and you've got zero records to show that staff were getting minimum legal breaks. So you get fined.

Or maybe until one of your staff starts being not quite so productive. Is it because they've got slack, or more difficult projects, or perhaps they are getting sick or have some serious family problem? How do you tell? Do you really want to become know as the manager who fired the guy whose wife had cancer?

I was in the WRC a couple of times a few years ago on both sides of the fence and this is the issue.

The first thing the employer was asked to show was proof of hours worked, 2 x 15 min breaks taking a day, full holidays taking during year, public holidays taken and paid for. Date the contract was signed and couple of other bits.

The employees won each time. Off the top of my head the fine for not having a signed copy of a contract was 1200.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

How does am employer prove staff have taken 15 min breaks? It's never been monitored any where I've ever worked.

capefear

Shawn Sparse Sunstroke wrote: »

How does am employer prove staff have taken 15 min breaks? It's never been monitored any where I've ever worked.

only becomes an issue when some one makes a complaint against an employer and its up to the employer to prove that you got your breaks, holidays etc.

if the employer cant prove it they more than likely will be fined, thats my experience, I have seen it happen three times for those very issues where the employee/employer fell out and the employer couldnt prove hours worked, holidays teken etc.

See attached the link which touches on potential problems when employers/employees fall out and answer emails out of hours.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/change-to-remote-working-would-raise-a-range-of-legal-issues-expert-says-1.4459519

If someone doesn't get to take any of the breaks they are entitled to, then the onus is on them to report it to their employer.

No point in bringing it up weeks or months later when there is an issue.

JDD

http://https://www.independent.ie/news/compensation-for-office-worker-who-resigned-after-employer-would-not-let-her-work-from-home-40012428.html

Might be of interest to anyone who is being forced to attend work in person when they could work from home.

namloc1980

capefear wrote: »

only becomes an issue when some one makes a complaint against an employer and its up to the employer to prove that you got your breaks, holidays etc.

The question though is how do you prove someone took their breaks? How can you actually prove that?

WhiteMemento9

JDD wrote: »

http://https://www.independent.ie/news/compensation-for-office-worker-who-resigned-after-employer-would-not-let-her-work-from-home-40012428.html

Might be of interest to anyone who is being forced to attend work in person when they could work from home.

That certainly should send shivers down a few employers.

antimatterx

In my last company they didn't care how many breaks we took, as long as the work got done. They weren't tracking hours.

We would often take 3/4 coffee breaks a day, and hour lunch, and maybe another hour playing Fifa etc. Unless we were under pressure to get something done, or a production incident came in late, we probably left early as well.

I miss that place.

An Ri rua

WhiteMemento9 wrote: »

That certainly should send shivers down a few employers.

https://m.independent.ie/news/compensation-for-office-worker-who-resigned-after-employer-would-not-let-her-work-from-home-40012428.html

Fixed the link

piplip87

antimatterx wrote: »

In my last company they didn't care how many breaks we took, as long as the work got done. They weren't tracking hours.

We would often take 3/4 coffee breaks a day, and hour lunch, and maybe another hour playing Fifa etc. Unless we were under pressure to get something done, or a production incident came in late, we probably left early as well.

I miss that place.

Had the same in a previous job. Once the work was done and the quality was good take a few breaks an hours lunch, massage chairs, FIFA, and free food. I used to come in for the night shift get the targets hit after 3 or 4 hours and find a massage chair and sleep 4 hours and off home.

Oh god I miss the place too.

Back in a call centre environment now working from home absolute pain in my arse so hard to doss.

stateofflux

As much as remote working is the hot topic & is suiting some people with long commutes etc, the government 'right to request' announcement means nothing really. Only Lip service.

The only constant is supply and demand. I can't see anything changing unless it suits the companies bottom line, or the employees are in a union.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

stateofflux wrote: »

As much as remote working is the hot topic & is suiting some people with long commutes etc, the government 'right to request' announcement means nothing really. Only Lip service.

The only constant is supply and demand. I can't see anything changing unless it suits the companies bottom line, or the employees are in a union.

Your enployer has to give a valid reason as to why wfh has been refused and an employee can appeal to the WRC.

stateofflux

Shawn Sparse Sunstroke wrote: »

Your enployer has to give a valid reason as to why wfh has been refused and an employee can appeal to the WRC.

reason: 'I need x employee on site to fulfill my companies needs effectively'.

I would see it possibly tricky/out of remit for the WRC to decide on individual employees role competency/ remote effectiveness in a particular employment.

Also, winning a couple of grand and a load of hassle means nothing without a job or reference.

jimmycrackcorm

stateofflux wrote: »

Also, winning a couple of grand and a load of hassle means nothing without a job or reference.

Most of these cases that I've read about, the employee has actually gotten new employment. It takes a couple of years to go through the court system.

The big risk is for bad workers taking a case where the details are published and shows them up as being contrary, especially if they lose. Your record is searchable on the internet, but in a justified case, I don't think any decent employer is going to hold it against you.

Mrs OBumble

bunnyboxer wrote: »

I actually feel sorry for you. You must work in a very small company from the 80s.

I've worked in lots of companies.

The ones that were most careful about working time record keeping were the American MNC and a large, relatively well-regarded Irish govt department. I'd say they've both been fined by the WRC.

The small family owned co from the 1980s was the slackest about record keeping, but very nice to the staff.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

stateofflux wrote: »

reason: 'I need x employee on site to fulfill my companies needs effectively'.

I would see it possibly tricky/out of remit for the WRC to decide on individual employees role competency/ remote effectiveness in a particular employment.

Also, winning a couple of grand and a load of hassle means nothing without a job or reference.

Not sure it'll be that simple an argument for the employer. Anyhow time will tell.