Coronavirus Pandemic Information- Local and Worldwide

wrangler

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

There's about 500 suicides annually in the country. We were on a consistent decline since the economy started to recover. Between 2020-2025 we will most likely see the trend reverse. Say for arguments sake 300 extra with an average age of 35.
They should have an average of 50 years each left, so 15,000 years of life lost that could be prevented.
The average age of a covid death in western Europe is 80-85. They potentially have at best 3-5 years left. So we have to save a minimum of 3-5,000 lives from covid to just break even against the increase in suicides that we will most likely cause.

Then allow for increased waiting lists and reduced healthcare budgets into the future. We will want to have prevented at least 10,000 deaths for our reaction to covid to have any hope of being justified. Is there any reason to think that we have actually done that?

If there was no restrictions, hospitals would full of covid patients with nowhere available for any thing else, not only that but we wouldn't have facilities for all the covid patients either. until you have someone die of it you'll have no realisation of why those that are choosing to take precautions should be looked after. There's a much higher percentage terrified of it now than six months ago.
I still have no problem sayin that 70% of those in hospital with covid should be ashamed of themselves putting our medics through the mill.
I know a nurse that has only worked 3 weeks out of the last nine, the same one that was getting tested every fortnight or so last sept as it ensured er getting a fortnight off, I was also talking to a nurse yesterday that told me that the concientious ones are getting worn out now and sick of the irresponsible carry on of the public, so you might get your wish of herd immunity soon

jaymla627

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

There's about 500 suicides annually in the country. We were on a consistent decline since the economy started to recover. Between 2020-2025 we will most likely see the trend reverse. Say for arguments sake 300 extra with an average age of 35.
They should have an average of 50 years each left, so 15,000 years of life lost that could be prevented.
The average age of a covid death in western Europe is 80-85. They potentially have at best 3-5 years left. So we have to save a minimum of 3-5,000 lives from covid to just break even against the increase in suicides that we will most likely cause.

Then allow for increased waiting lists and reduced healthcare budgets into the future. We will want to have prevented at least 10,000 deaths for our reaction to covid to have any hope of being justified. Is there any reason to think that we have actually done that?

It's a slash and burn policy justified by the social media age ramming the doomsday scenario 24/7, zero point trying to argue about the future as society as a whole only thinks about the present

Water John

It's a lovely job to be the triage who stands there and decides who lives or dies.

dzer2

What makes you all think this is going away at all.

Water John

Doesn't matter if it doesn't go away. We now have multiple vaccines that prevent serious illness and we all will have the option of taking it by this summer.

_Brian

Water John wrote: »

It's a lovely job to be the triage who stands there and decides who lives or dies.

Exactly.
Maybe if they had to stand in front of 80 year olds and their family and explain to their faces that they are deciding to kill their elderly relative because someone mightn’t like staying in a bit or wearing a mask into the shops. There’s a stench of fascism about these posts justifying letting older people die on their drives to get out for a pint with their friends.

paddysdream

_Brian wrote: »

Exactly.
Maybe if they had to stand in front of 80 year olds and their family and explain to their faces that they are deciding to kill their elderly relative because someone mightn’t like staying in a bit or wearing a mask into the shops. There’s a stench of fascism about these posts justifying letting older people die on their drives to get out for a pint with their friends.

I know I shouldn't but:

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.
Textbook definition of fascism above.
So lets see what boxes are ticked.
Authoritarian ;
Suppression of opposition;
Strong regimentation ;

Lets be fair here.Nobody mentioned " getting out for pints " etc etc or any of the other hyperbolic stuff I have seen and heard.

Is it not possible to even question the direction taken ,the costs involved and above all the priorities of the health service at this time without some people becoming ?????????????

Also the triage bit ? Even the most hysterical commentator on radio or tv hasn't managed to find an example of this happening in Ireland due to covid.Lets be honest here do you think they wouldn't hesitate to use it if they could ?

_Brian

paddysdream wrote: »

I know I shouldn't but:

Fascism (/ˈf643;ɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.
Textbook definition of fascism above.
So lets see what boxes are ticked.
Authoritarian ;
Suppression of opposition;
Strong regimentation ;

Lets be fair here.Nobody mentioned " getting out for pints " etc etc or any of the other hyperbolic stuff I have seen and heard.

Is it not possible to even question the direction taken ,the costs involved and above all the priorities of the health service at this time without some people becoming ?????????????

Also the triage bit ? Even the most hysterical commentator on radio or tv hasn't managed to find an example of this happening in Ireland due to covid.Lets be honest here do you think they wouldn't hesitate to use it if they could ?

I “may” have overstated it a bit. But still. The decision is to let one group die to favour another group who might choose to kill themselves, who possibly would find a reason to kill themselves anyway, it’s not like suicide just came along as a reaction to covid lockdowns.

Surely we work on what we know rather than what might be. We know lockdowns reduce the infections, this reduces the critical cases and so reduced unnecessary deaths.
They are a short term tool to get us to a position where via vaccines we can operate alongside covid.

There is also the very real issue of reducing infections to reduce the chances of a super covid that we can’t control and that is far far deadlier. We’re seeing the evidence that this risk is out there. Countries who failed to control covid are generating new strains, it’s simple statistics.

yosemitesam1

_Brian wrote: »

I “may” have overstated it a bit. But still. The decision is to let one group die to favour another group who might choose to kill themselves, who possibly would find a reason to kill themselves anyway, it’s not like suicide just came along as a reaction to covid lockdowns.

Surely we work on what we know rather than what might be. We know lockdowns reduce the infections, this reduces the critical cases and so reduced unnecessary deaths.
They are a short term tool to get us to a position where via vaccines we can operate alongside covid.

There is also the very real issue of reducing infections to reduce the chances of a super covid that we can’t control and that is far far deadlier. We’re seeing the evidence that this risk is out there. Countries who failed to control covid are generating new strains, it’s simple statistics.

Wow.... it's wrong to question the cost of trying to save the very old who've had every chance to live a life already because they'll probably die within a very short timeframe anyway.
But it's perfectly ok to drive young people to suicide because they would probably find a reason to do it anyway. Never mind they are still developing as people, might not have adequate support while having their whole life put on hold, be vulnerable for many reasons outside of their control and any number of other reasons.

That is a very f****d up view to have...

Say my name

Over 1,000 people died of Covid 19 in January 2021 in Ireland.

The past week averaged 48 per day.

Rest in Peace.

_Brian

Say my name wrote: »

Over 1,000 people died of Covid 19 in January 2021 in Ireland.

The past week averaged 48 per day.

Rest in Peace.

It’s a rough statistic when you look at it. Hard to believe it got to that and it’s hard not to think of the Christmas splurge was held off how many of those people would be at home enjoying life with their families. I can’t understand how anyone can attempt to choose to let one group die because it might put pressure on others. I don’t think I’ve seen one of those suggesting that say that more mental health supports should be introduced during lockdown, no, let the old codgers die in their drives is the solution. Says allot about people.

jaymla627

_Brian wrote: »

It’s a rough statistic when you look at it. Hard to believe it got to that and it’s hard not to think of the Christmas splurge was held off how many of those people would be at home enjoying life with their families. I can’t understand how anyone can attempt to choose to let one group die because it might put pressure on others. I don’t think I’ve seen one of those suggesting that say that more mental health supports should be introduced during lockdown, no, let the old codgers die in their drives is the solution. Says allot about people.

That's a pretty high horse your up on to be fair

_Brian

jaymla627 wrote: »

That's a pretty high horse your up on to be fair

A proper society strives to protect everyone, not consider the elderly disposable because it’s convenient and they have lived a long life anyway. That’s hardly being on a high horse. If that’s not what people are thinking maybe the view from down in the gutter makes ordinary folk look like they are on a high horse.

yosemitesam1

_Brian wrote: »

A proper society strives to protect everyone, not consider the elderly disposable because it’s convenient and they have lived a long life anyway. That’s hardly being on a high horse. If that’s not what people are thinking maybe the view from down in the gutter makes ordinary folk look like they are on a high horse.

The argument that I have been saying since last April is that lockdown takes to many resources away from all healthcare services in the long run. That includes mental health supports.
By not locking down I and others also don't suggest that we abandon our most vulnerable. It is only you who say that the alternative to our current situation is everyone going for pints and saying f**k the elderly, they can look out for themselves.

wrangler

_Brian wrote: »

It’s a rough statistic when you look at it. Hard to believe it got to that and it’s hard not to think of the Christmas splurge was held off how many of those people would be at home enjoying life with their families. I can’t understand how anyone can attempt to choose to let one group die because it might put pressure on others. I don’t think I’ve seen one of those suggesting that say that more mental health supports should be introduced during lockdown, no, let the old codgers die in their drives is the solution. Says allot about people.

Fair enough, those in care are getting infected by those that have to be there to care for them, but why do those living alone get infected, can they not stay in. They are in fact authors of there own demise, what reason are they going out. fit people my age should not be getting it. or even between 65 and 80 . it shouldn't make any difference to us whether people abide by restrictions or not. The people between 20 and 60 who will have to pay the price for this pandemic to get the country solvent again are in fact the ones that are extending this pandemic with their beligerant carry on so let them drive on

Water John

Triage has already made decisions as to who gets put in ICU and the others, who in normal times would be in ICU, stay in the wards.
Had restrictions not kept down the level of infections the system would have been totally overwhelmed. We came fairly close to tipping point in the last few weeks.

SuperTortoise

It would seem we are going to hover around the 1000+ cases for the forseeable future, we missed our chance for zero covid last Feb/March, weak government decisions and reactive measures rather than preventative measures as well as growing percentage of the population just not giving a damn has us where we are today.

Just on a side note i saw an add by ryanair i think it was just after the new year, and i swore i would'nt ever fly with then again, the ad was is shockingly poor taste, then this morning i caught the interview he gave on the radio, i'll swim before i get on one of his planes again.

greysides

greysides wrote: »

While there are several threads already running across Boards, this is a thread where we can discuss the disease and it's implications from our perspectives and biased towards how it affects us, the people who live in the country.
This is to be a fact and information thread with news and science, rather than a chit-chat thread. The intention being to educate and help each other.

This was the original purpose of the thread, but it expanded to be the F&F Covid thread and that's okay too.

I think the arguments for, and against, lock down have been pretty well hammered out. Naturally your circumstances will inform your opinion and I think there is no one opinion wrong, and the other, right.

So, if we could drop that area as a topic for discussion, pending a good reason to come back to it, then that would be great.

This is not a time for falling out. We're all under enough pressure between Covid and the Spring work load as it is without that.

whelan2

If the special needs children go back to school next week, will they be off the following week on midterm?

_Brian

whelan2 wrote: »

If the special needs children go back to school next week, will they be off the following week on midterm?

Think so.

_Brian

If the government hadn’t broken its word to teachers last year they would likely be easier dealt with this time round over leaving cert, if you’ve no word you have nothing. The teachers asked and the minister specifically said students wouldn’t have access to what the teachers had written about the students and their predicted grades, then at slightest pressure the minister crumbled and broke his word giving students access.
Second poor weak education minister in a row, says allot for the importance of education.

Sinn Fein are seeming the most reasoned voice about the leaving cert, students would best remember that when next election comes round.

ruwithme

Water John wrote: »

Doesn't matter if it doesn't go away. We now have multiple vaccines that prevent serious illness and we all will have the option of taking it by this summer.

We are in the European union. Why do you think vaccine role out has being faster in non eu countries?

Layers of bureaucracy from before the vaccine was available & still now.
People prepared to take the vaccine in Ireland still won't all have being given it by the year end.

The most vulnerable will have,covid will live on anyhow.

paddysdream

_Brian wrote: »

If the government hadn’t broken its word to teachers last year they would likely be easier dealt with this time round over leaving cert, if you’ve no word you have nothing. The teachers asked and the minister specifically said students wouldn’t have access to what the teachers had written about the students and their predicted grades, then at slightest pressure the minister crumbled and broke his word giving students access.
Second poor weak education minister in a row, says allot for the importance of education.

Sinn Fein are seeming the most reasoned voice about the leaving cert, students would best remember that when next election comes round.

Finally , something we can agree on !!!!

Not going to rehash any arguments/discussions/differences of opinion etc on here but think a lot of the problems were/are being caused by political promising/promise breaking/u turning /changing the rules,advice etc/mixed messaging since all this began.
This is true no matter what "side",if any ,you might be perceived to be on.

It seems like a reactive "float an idea and see what twitter thinks " approach has been taken and Government are following the crowd and defending or explaining whatever new idea they come up with rather than a coherent policy .

I know things change when circumstances change but our whole approach seems very piecemeal.Perhaps its the same everywhere but its not one that inspires confidence.
Its like they don't trust what they are saying.

All that said are we surprised ?Would we expect any different if this all happens in a few years again ?
Can't be agreeing 100% with Brian so would think Sinn Fein are no different only that they have no responsibility (well down here anyways) and its easy to be the hurler on the ditch when nothing you say or do will have any consequences.


Back to covid from a farming/rural perspective.
Think it has passed us by big time in that its economic impact has been minimal and even perhaps may have even helped re sheep market.
Work has continued and have heard of no real issues regarding meal,stock selling buying ,machinery parts ,diesel etc.
Not really a mart person but a fair few(buyers)complaining about difficulty of judging stock on camera esp. sheep but a lot less complaining from sellers at the moment.
Wonder due to the age profile of farmers will things like mart restrictions etc be slower to lift ?
We are luckier than most in that our day to day activities are not inclined to lead us into meeting lots of people by necessity.
Some issues regarding Dept. visitors but think it is being used as a bargaining chip in some cases.
Hard to see what a Dept. man calling will really do unless he really takes the p**s

One thing it has shown is the reliance the meat processors have on imported labour.We are supplying to an industry that seems to be very low margin ,low cost system so that doesn't really fill one with confidence that any improvement will happen in the near future.

einn32

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-24/what-victoria-learnt-from-a-year-living-with-coronavirus/13079916

Article on the Victorian approach.

_Brian

paddysdream wrote: »

One thing it has shown is the reliance the meat processors have on imported labour.We are supplying to an industry that seems to be very low margin ,low cost system so that doesn't really fill one with confidence that any improvement will happen in the near future.

Just because they are importing cheap labour I wouldn’t necessarily be saying it’s a low margin business. They are renowned for just being stingy cheap scates willing to run slaves to mean they are making even more profit.

paddysdream

_Brian wrote: »

Just because they are importing cheap labour I wouldn’t necessarily be saying it’s a low margin business. They are renowned for just being stingy cheap scates willing to run slaves to mean they are making even more profit.

Ah lad have to disagree with you again and I trying to be nice and all !!!!!!!!!!!

In all seriousness think meat processing is a big turnover,small margin business where its probably 20 years behind other industries in a lot of aspects.
A real " pile em high and sell em cheap " vibe .

From a margin point of view nobody really knows the truth but it looks like the turnover/cashflow is a big part of it.

Only example I can think of is I asked our local butcher a few times what he was paying for lamb carcase from wholesaler.
Not certain on exact figures but know it generally seemed to be 20/30 cents a kilo over factory price on the day.
Last time we talked about it his lamb was costing him 6 euro a kilo that day and I had got 5:75 the previous day in the factory.
Lamb was probably killed previous week at maybe a lower figure but still.

All a bit off topic so perhaps better in lamb prices thread.

_Brian

paddysdream wrote: »

Ah lad have to disagree with you again and I trying to be nice and all !!!!!!!!!!!

In all seriousness think meat processing is a big turnover,small margin business where its probably 20 years behind other industries in a lot of aspects.
A real " pile em high and sell em cheap " vibe .

From a margin point of view nobody really knows the truth but it looks like the turnover/cashflow is a big part of it.

Only example I can think of is I asked our local butcher a few times what he was paying for lamb carcase from wholesaler.
Not certain on exact figures but know it generally seemed to be 20/30 cents a kilo over factory price on the day.
Last time we talked about it his lamb was costing him 6 euro a kilo that day and I had got 5:75 the previous day in the factory.
Lamb was probably killed previous week at maybe a lower figure but still.

All a bit off topic so perhaps better in lamb prices thread.

Don’t be nice on my behalf.
I’m fairly thick skinned, amd thick in general too 😂

wrangler

_Brian wrote: »

Just because they are importing cheap labour I wouldn’t necessarily be saying it’s a low margin business. They are renowned for just being stingy cheap scates willing to run slaves to mean they are making even more profit.

The animal pays for every thing and if they put up the wages to cost another euro per kilo who do you think is going to pay that.
Try to recognise which side you 're on

Water John

Fascinating that the Serum Institute of India, that is now the worlds biggest manufacturer of vaccines was set up by a farmer:

'From startup in 1966 to world’s largest vaccine producer in 2021 is quite a journey. How did it start?

The Haffkine Institute, a government institute in Mumbai, used to produce anti-snakebite and -tetanus serums by injecting the venom or bacterium into horses and mules, then pulling their blood a few days later and extracting the antibodies. Mine is a family of farmers and horse breeders and my father, Cyrus, used to sell animals to the institute. Eventually he thought, “Why not cut out the middle man and make the serums – later vaccines – myself?”

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/14/we-took-a-huge-risk-the-indian-firm-making-more-covid-jabs-than-anyone

wrangler

I see a tiny percentage of children that put the virus over them with or without symptoms are getting something called PIMS.
This virus is really the gift that keeps on giving

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/our-5-year-old-is-in-icu-with-a-covid-linked-illness-40103698.html