Is it fair to mix social housing with privately owned homes?

Pixel Eater

Deleted User wrote: »

Culture. Different nationalities behave differently...

I'll give you an example. Public facilities. I was amazed when I moved to Oz twenty years ago to find that there were BBQ facilities in all the parks (Brisbane), and none of them were vandalized. The people kept the areas clean, and while there was some graffiti around, there was extremely little vandalism. Just prior to when I left for Oz, in my hometown, they opened a kids playing area down by the river, which was vandalized within three hours of it being made available to the public.

There is such a thing as national character, and culture does play a role in behavior. There are pluses and minuses to every country.. but they tend to be different depending on where you are.

Not buying that. I'm sure there would be rough areas of Brisbane/Sydney/Melbourne too where public amenities would be vandalised. Just like there is such parts of Oslo; Berlin; Toronto... everywhere. As there is many places in Ireland where such facilities would be well maintained.

Pixel Eater

Pixel Eater wrote: »

Not buying that. I'm sure there would be rough areas of Brisbane/Sydney/Melbourne too where public amenities would be vandalised. Just like there is such parts of Oslo; Berlin; Toronto... everywhere. As there is many places in Ireland where such facilities would be well maintained.

You don't have to buy it. However, I certainly do buy into it.

Pixel Eater

Deleted User wrote: »

You don't have to buy it. However, I certainly do buy into it.

I will concede though, that I suspect that the current Irish model of social housing actively contributes to anti-social behaviour.

Thelonious Monk

Yes when I lived in Oz, my brother and I loved using the public bbqs, he always said people would probably sh*te on them for fun if it was Ireland. Same in NZ where they have such pride in their environment, which is why they were so appalled when that knacker family who visited there were throwing rubbish around the place and acting like chimpanzees a year or two ago.
It's probably to do with our history of being a backwards poverty stricken nation, generations of poverty and anger and alcoholism and abuse from the church etc manifests itself in so many ways, and we're still feeling it today.

Floppybits

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Yes when I lived in Oz, my brother and I loved using the public bbqs, he always said people would probably sh*te on them for fun if it was Ireland. Same in NZ where they have such pride in their environment, which is why they were so appalled when that knacker family who visited there were throwing rubbish around the place and acting like chimpanzees a year or two ago.
It's probably to do with our history of being a backwards poverty stricken nation, generations of poverty and anger and alcoholism and abuse from the church etc manifests itself in so many ways, and we're still feeling it today.

Ah ya can blame the church for lots of things but not for scumbags. I'd say it was church that kept them inline in years gone bye.

The problem these days is that there are repercussions for scumbag behaviour, they don't give a flying F**k about anything. They only things they really care about are their own prize possessions. Barring orders, ASBO's or whatever have no effect on them, even the gardai dealing with them has no effect. Best hitting them where it hurts and that is with their possessions.

I can't understand why when a person gets a social house with minimal rent that the rent is not taken from their payments at source? Surely the authorities can say Jacintha has agreed to pay us 50 quid a week or whatever rent for the house so then the authority who gave her the house contact Social Welfare and stop that 50 quid from her payments each week to cover the rent.

Floppybits

suicide_circus wrote: »

the problem is we're all carrot and no stick.

by all means the state should fulfil its part of the social contract; house people, give them cash, various allowances. but there has to be give and take. what happens when those who live off the state dont do there part?dont pay their meagre rent (out of the aforementioned cash)? make life miserable for their neighbours? i have neighbours who burn household waste on the street, a normal residential street. the council come up and clear the smouldering nappies away. absolutely no consequences for these people. my driveway is forever filled with mcdonalds packaging blown by the wind. groups of feral youths stalk the area daring at you to look at them sideways.

We eventually got a mortgage in this "mixed" neighbourhood. if and when we are financially ready to have kids, my children will have to navigate charred baby faeces on their way to school. but no one gives two f*cks about that side of the equation. sure amnt i lucky to have a house?

When you get scumbag neighbours moving into an estate, I don't what it is but they attract other scumbags who don't live in the estate and before you know you have gangs of scumbags hanging out and terrorising the place.

Mad_maxx

mariaalice wrote: »

Why cant they be evicted?

because in our left wing hand wringing - bleeding heart culture , the state is obliged to house the scum they evict so the council probably figure whats the point

suicide_circus

Floppybits wrote: »

When you get scumbag neighbours moving into an estate, I don't what it is but they attract other scumbags who don't live in the estate and before you know you have gangs of scumbags hanging out and terrorising the place.

i'm the newcomer to the area, there has been social housing here for 50 years but the anti social behaviour is only in the last 20 years according to the little old lady across the street. there is just absolutely no enforcement of anything. no consequences.

Thelonious Monk

Mad_maxx wrote: »

because in our left wing hand wringing - bleeding heart culture , the state is obliged to house the scum they evict so the council probably figure whats the point

evict them to where? another estate where they'll do the same? I don't really see what the options are.

Floppybits

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

evict them to where? another estate where they'll do the same? I don't really see what the options are.

And this is the problem. Like i said the only thing they understand is when they're own possessions are under threat. Treat like children and start taking away their tv, bikes, motorbikes, games. Make their life a miserable as possible and they might just cop themselves on. Or else move them to another part of the country, no appealing the decision, no listening to them moan, just turn up and clear their crap out to a van and off to another part of the country. Tough

Dorakman

Floppybits wrote: »

And this is the problem. Like i said the only thing they understand is when they're own possessions are under threat. Treat like children and start taking away their tv, bikes, motorbikes, games. Make their life a miserable as possible and they might just cop themselves on. Or else move them to another part of the country, no appealing the decision, no listening to them moan, just turn up and clear their crap out to a van and off to another part of the country. Tough

Imagine Paul Murphy smacking his lips at the very thought of this.

Floppybits

Dorakman wrote: »

Imagine Paul Murphy smacking his lips at the very thought of this.

Let him. This is the problem politicians afraid to take action. If they make it applicable to everyone then Murphy has nothing to shout about

Thelonious Monk

Floppybits wrote: »

And this is the problem. Like i said the only thing they understand is when they're own possessions are under threat. Treat like children and start taking away their tv, bikes, motorbikes, games. Make their life a miserable as possible and they might just cop themselves on. Or else move them to another part of the country, no appealing the decision, no listening to them moan, just turn up and clear their crap out to a van and off to another part of the country. Tough

That would take an army of people to be constantly on their cases. No government will ever fund that.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

evict them to where? another estate where they'll do the same? I don't really see what the options are.

I think the idea would be to have a tier system for housing. Low tier housing would be livable but nothing particularly good, but they would be financially liable for maintaining it. Any damage would be damage to government property and thus an offense with jail time. Place the lower tier houses in small blocks of 8-10 houses, but have them placed in the countryside. Near transport links but not too convenient.

Hook the better tier houses to educational achievements and then, employment.. with their rental payments going to pay off a mortgage amount, allowing them to essentially own the property after a reasonable period. Welfare payments wouldn't be accepted towards the mortgage unless it's a genuine disability allowance.

The one thing I've learned is that people place no value on things that are free... and renting for discounted rates would be perceived the same. We need to move away from this entitlement culture.

I do think the government should aim to create a series of co-op style businesses initially funded by the government, where employees would be trained up, and eventually become the owners/shareholders of the business (with a % of profits being used to pay off the government loan). Give these people the practical education, skills, and a chance at a job in an area that is in demand...

I still believe that if you give people the ability to earn money, and to own a decent home someday, they'll live the same as everyone else. It's only people with nothing to lose that can truly behave as scumbags. Give people something to lose, and the education to appreciate that loss.

BanditLuke

Floppybits wrote: »

And this is the problem. Like i said the only thing they understand is when they're own possessions are under threat. Treat like children and start taking away their tv, bikes, motorbikes, games. Make their life a miserable as possible and they might just cop themselves on. Or else move them to another part of the country, no appealing the decision, no listening to them moan, just turn up and clear their crap out to a van and off to another part of the country. Tough

Lol you just can't take people's possessions away. Stop talking rubbish.

BanditLuke

Mad_maxx wrote: »

because in our left wing hand wringing - bleeding heart culture , the state is obliged to house the scum they evict so the council probably figure whats the point

We've never had a left wing government

Mad_maxx

BanditLuke wrote: »

We've never had a left wing government

Left wingers write and influence policy, it matters not what stripe the signing off minister is

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the idea would be to have a tier system for housing. Low tier housing would be livable but nothing particularly good, but they would be financially liable for maintaining it. Any damage would be damage to government property and thus an offense with jail time. Place the lower tier houses in small blocks of 8-10 houses, but have them placed in the countryside. Near transport links but not too convenient.

Hook the better tier houses to educational achievements and then, employment.. with their rental payments going to pay off a mortgage amount, allowing them to essentially own the property after a reasonable period. Welfare payments wouldn't be accepted towards the mortgage unless it's a genuine disability allowance.

The one thing I've learned is that people place no value on things that are free... and renting for discounted rates would be perceived the same. We need to move away from this entitlement culture.

I do think the government should aim to create a series of co-op style businesses initially funded by the government, where employees would be trained up, and eventually become the owners/shareholders of the business (with a % of profits being used to pay off the government loan). Give these people the practical education, skills, and a chance at a job in an area that is in demand...

I still believe that if you give people the ability to earn money, and to own a decent home someday, they'll live the same as everyone else. It's only people with nothing to lose that can truly behave as scumbags. Give people something to lose, and the education to appreciate that loss.

The above will just create an even bigger angry lazy unemployable underclass though, they'll still be having loads of children. How on earth would you get planning permission for those houses anywhere in Ireland? Do you think the government is going to covertly build houses and secretly move absolute scumbags into the place? Do you not think they'd start marauding the area in gangs? Perhaps like another cultured bunch who live in such communities?
I mean we could always just sterilise them and that'd be the end of the problem, but that would be a nazi policy.
I don't know what the solution is but there's no point in suggesting ridiculous solutions that will never happen.

Idbatterim

BanditLuke wrote: »

We've never had a left wing government

how do we get an obscene welfare state then? free housing for many? medical cards, free transport, massively reduced drugs. Free tv license. We hit workers on modest and high incomes with scandalous rates of tax, given they get nothing for it. Huge amounts outside the tax net, no water charges, as good as no property tax. This country is a banana republic, just waiting for this **** to come crashing down again!

Floppybits

BanditLuke wrote: »

Lol you just can't take people's possessions away. Stop talking rubbish.

Yes ya can. You can go to court and get an order for the sheriff to retrieve any goods that would add up to the money owed. Also it can be written into agreements that the local authorities sign with the tenants when the agree to social housing.

All that done without accusing you talking rubbish.

Eric Cartman

BanditLuke wrote: »

We've never had a left wing government

Weve been governed by an increasingly left shifting centre and a union laden permanent civil service forever , many people argue that FG left unfettered would institute a thatcherite government. I would argue that historically the catholic church was the only influence keeping ff/fg right of centre and now with the erosion of that power the only thing stopping unfettered giveaway leftism is our dependency on FDI and heavy investment from the US which demands a certain right appearance of government.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The above will just create an even bigger angry lazy unemployable underclass though, they'll still be having loads of children. How on earth would you get planning permission for those houses anywhere in Ireland?

The same way that they get planning permission for affordable housing as it is.

Do you think the government is going to covertly build houses and secretly move absolute scumbags into the place? Do you not think they'd start marauding the area in gangs? Perhaps like another cultured bunch who live in such communities?

Why the need for it to be covert?

The town council in my hometown built a block of 6 small houses for the long-time traveller families. These would be the biggest troublemakers, in terms of crime and drugs. They were told that if they messed up/destroyed the houses or the area around them, they wouldn't ever get another chance in the county.

That's 8 years ago now, and they've been perfect little angels in the meantime. One family tried playing the old tricks and was booted under the terms of the contracts signed. The other families are doing great, and their kids are actually sticking in school (my sister is teaching two of them).

They still sell drugs but they do so far away from the houses, and you can see them out cleaning up rubbish, and keeping the place rather nice every weekend.

You see, I don't accept this idea of "once a scumbag, always a scumbag". There is usually a way to reform people. You just need to find the right pressure points.

I mean we could always just sterilise them and that'd be the end of the problem, but that would be a nazi policy.

And an assumption that such behavior is genetic.. which there's no real evidence to show that there is.

I'm a believer in education and motivational practices. Give people an education that leads to long-term employment, that gains them a reasonable income, and most people will jump on that bandwagon. The educational programs in this country for the unemployed are a joke, and there's no real effort to provide long-term employment except in low end salary positions. There's no effort to give people their own sense of pride in their lives.

I don't know what the solution is but there's no point in suggesting ridiculous solutions that will never happen.

As opposed to dismissing things, simply because you think they can't happen, without even allowing discussion, to find ways on improving the idea or making it more feasible on a larger scale?

Thelonious Monk

Deleted User wrote: »

As opposed to dismissing things, simply because you think they can't happen, without even allowing discussion, to find ways on improving the idea or making it more feasible on a larger scale?

Well the same as with travellers, I think the only thing that can work is a hands on government approach, loads and loads of funding and facilities etc, for people like this. Round the clock care basically. But that's never going to happen either, so I'm just glad my neighbours are ok.

RustyNut

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Let those of us with a mortgage try to get away with a month's arrears and see what will happen.

This sort of thing do you mean?

The High Court has approved personal insolvency arrangements allowing musician Frank McNamara and his wife barrister Theresa Lowe write-off almost €3 million of their debts

Thelonious Monk

What happened to that posh couple who wouldn't move out of their gaf in Clontarf?

marieholmfan

Idbatterim wrote: »

how do we get an obscene welfare state then? free housing for many? medical cards, free transport, massively reduced drugs. Free tv license. We hit workers on modest and high incomes with scandalous rates of tax, given they get nothing for it. Huge amounts outside the tax net, no water charges, as good as no property tax. This country is a banana republic, just waiting for this **** to come crashing down again!

We've never had a left wing government .

Workers on modest incomes pay very little tax.

marieholmfan

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Weve been governed by an increasingly left shifting centre and a union laden permanent civil service forever , many people argue that FG left unfettered would institute a thatcherite government. I would argue that historically the catholic church was the only influence keeping ff/fg right of centre and now with the erosion of that power the only thing stopping unfettered giveaway leftism is our dependency on FDI and heavy investment from the US which demands a certain right appearance of government.

We've never had a left wing government and your tedious witterings don't change reality.

Thelonious Monk

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well the same as with travellers, I think the only thing that can work is a hands on government approach, loads and loads of funding and facilities etc, for people like this. Round the clock care basically. But that's never going to happen either, so I'm just glad my neighbours are ok.

Education and employment. That shouldn't be so difficult to provide.

I do educational programs in my community. At the moment, I'm doing English speaking, and business management courses. Roughly 20% are travellers, and the majority will drop out before the end of the course. I've taught these courses before, and the drop out rate overall is quite high because it doesn't lead anywhere... the qualification is worthless. Although they're useful for startups. I know a variety of teachers who do the workshops or educational programs for the welfare group, and they say the same. The qualifications have no weight with employers. A waste of time really, and most people know it.

The point is that the government can implement educational programs which are practical. in that, they provide the education needed for actual jobs. Instead, the focus is on occupying time, and maybe someone will get lucky in getting a minimum wage job.

Educating those at the bottom, and providing them with jobs, would go a long way to instilling some confidence in them, and provide them with the means to better their lifestyles. Combine that with affordable housing which is tied to their education and employment, and you provide an incentive that is reachable.

The problem with your attitude is that you see these people as useless, and incapable of bettering themselves. That they all are wasters, and have no desire to improve. Personally, I think the entitlement culture that has grown up, due to the welfare handouts, has encouraged them to behave in that manner. Remove the triggers, and people will behave differently. Provide a positive and planned system for improvement, and the organisations that usually block such initiatives will be neutered.

collywobble7

Padre_Pio wrote:

I don't know why people bother. If it's so good, then why isn't everyone at it? Maybe because there's more to life than a house.

This attitude is everything that's wrong with society

Eric Cartman

marieholmfan wrote: »

We've never had a left wing government and your tedious witterings don't change reality.

What genuine benefit would it achieve though. Like absolutely honest question, were one of the worlds wealthiest countries , per capita excluding oil rich nordics we have the most generous welfare system in the western world, what positive benefit could a left wing government do for those who work, or is it only a benefit for those who dont,