Coronovirus - Gamsat MARCH 2020

medgal22

I sat the Gamsat in September 2019. I scored a score that would previously have gotten any medical school in Ireland since graduate medicine began. I sat for seven hours in a room where if you wrote an extra word past the time limit in section 2, your exam was nil. I am frankly shocked by what has happened today. The non-standardisation of this exam and the fact medical school places are being awarded on the way this exam was conducted is beyond unfair. The fact points could rise and filter people out that sat it in fair circumstances is shocking. I have heard anecdotes of individuals logging out of the exam, getting to sit it again after previously seeing the exam, Procturs not examining the room, so many chances of cheating, essay topics copied over days...The ACER company have a lot to answer for. I am emailing medical schools, although I doubt it will make any difference, as I just think its crazy that points could rise to this extent if the exam is supposed to be comparable to other years. Barbaric.

grdmd

medgal22 wrote: »

I sat the Gamsat in September 2019. I scored a score that would previously have gotten any medical school in Ireland since graduate medicine began. I sat for seven hours in a room where if you wrote an extra word past the time limit in section 2, your exam was nil. I am frankly shocked by what has happened today. The non-standardisation of this exam and the fact medical school places are being awarded on the way this exam was conducted is beyond unfair. The fact points could rise and filter people out that sat it in fair circumstances is shocking. I have heard anecdotes of individuals logging out of the exam, getting to sit it again after previously seeing the exam, Procturs not examining the room, so many chances of cheating, essay topics copied over days...The ACER company have a lot to answer for. I am emailing medical schools, although I doubt it will make any difference, as I just think its crazy that points could rise to this extent if the exam is supposed to be comparable to other years. Barbaric.

I sat the Gamsat in March 2020 and I feel the exact same way. Its not going to be an easy 5 week wait for offers. I don't feel very hopeful after seeing today's posts

medgal22

if ACER are correct in saying the exam is comparable to other sittings and will be graded according to other sittings, rise in points scores like what have been seen don't seem very fair. One person having an unfair advantage is enough and could completely change the course of another individuals life that sat it in fair circumstances. One extra word written past the time limit in the actual exam puts you out of the race.

PlumBella28

medgal22 wrote: »

I sat the Gamsat in September 2019. I scored a score that would previously have gotten any medical school in Ireland since graduate medicine began. I sat for seven hours in a room where if you wrote an extra word past the time limit in section 2, your exam was nil. I am frankly shocked by what has happened today. The non-standardisation of this exam and the fact medical school places are being awarded on the way this exam was conducted is beyond unfair. The fact points could rise and filter people out that sat it in fair circumstances is shocking. I have heard anecdotes of individuals logging out of the exam, getting to sit it again after previously seeing the exam, Procturs not examining the room, so many chances of cheating, essay topics copied over days...The ACER company have a lot to answer for. I am emailing medical schools, although I doubt it will make any difference, as I just think its crazy that points could rise to this extent if the exam is supposed to be comparable to other years. Barbaric.

I’m unsure if you’re trying to belittle my score by implying we had it easier this year? That is not the case. Are you implying that we cheated to earn out score? That is not the case. Are you implying that we do not deserve a place in medical school? That is not the case.

I spent a year studying for this exam. Took two mock exams (In a simulated test centre environment( and in both I scored above 70. Medical schools know what they are doing. By scoring high on a GAMSAT it does not imply you will be a successful medical student. If you’re not able for the course, you will struggle and you will fail, and will have to drop out.

A study carried out in 2008 says the GAMSAT is the least determining factor for a student to perform well in medical. First we have their GPA from undergrad, then interview/personality and finally GAMSAT score.

Higher scores overall are more likely for candidates who are male; are less than 24 years old; have an English-speaking background; have an Honours degree or a doctorate

I’m female, over 30, English is my second language, and have a degree in primary teaching. You don’t hear me complaining because I’m at an automatic disadvantage.

If you are unable for medical school, you will not succeed. If by some miracle you pass, you will not succeed during intern year or BST.

medgal22

PlumBella28 wrote: »

I’m unsure if you’re trying to belittle my score by implying we had it easier this year? That is not the case. Are you implying that we cheated to earn out score? That is not the case. Are you implying that we do not deserve a place in medical school? That is not the case.

I spent a year studying for this exam. Took two mock exams (In a simulated test centre environment( and in both I scored above 70. Medical schools know what they are doing. By scoring high on a GAMSAT it does not imply you will be a successful medical student. If you’re not able for the course, you will struggle and you will fail, and will have to drop out.

A study carried out in 2008 says the GAMSAT is the least determining factor for a student to perform well in medical. First we have their GPA from undergrad, then interview/personality and finally GAMSAT score.

Higher scores overall are more likely for candidates who are male; are less than 24 years old; have an English-speaking background; have an Honours degree or a doctorate

I’m female, over 30, English is my second language, and have a degree in primary teaching. You don’t hear me complaining because I’m at an automatic disadvantage.

If you are unable for medical school, you will not succeed. If by some miracle you pass, you will not succeed during intern year or BST.

My post is not a personal attack on those that have done well in this exam online.... The exam just does not compare to the physical sitting and thats just it. So the fact points could rise for entry to courses based on inflated scores from the online sitting is very frustrating, given the absolute marathon the physical sitting is. There is no comparison so if points rise overall, there has to be some discrepancy

humboldt

Can someone post the percentile curve from this sitting?

humboldt

am003 wrote: »

I'll try do it in a bit. The example they give is that a score of 64 is in the 70th percentile so is definitely different to other years but someone that runs a prep course did say that its also because way less people took the exam as they deferred to September and at the end of the day the percentiles don't matter unless you know how many people took each exam, dunno if thats true!

Thanks. For comparison, here's the September 2019 curve:

https://imgur.com/a/VpKom8j

from that sitting, a 70th percentile score was 62, which is a pretty significant change imo... but then again someone pointed out to me earlier this cohort may have just been 'better' as people with poor prep were more likely to drop out/defer when that option arose, and percentile score changes aren't a new phenomenon (https://www.frasersgamsat.com.au/march-gamsat-2019-what-will-it-look-like/)

taxignorant

I think the fatigue element of traditional sitting was counterbalanced by the difficulty as mentioned earlier of having so little scrap paper, and having to scroll and change tabs to read text. You couldn't copy and paste or cross out in the essays so it was actually more difficult to edit than on a page.

Along with that people were sitting with so much uncertainty, many having the stress of being laid off. Heck I was trying to study while homeschooling a five and six year old with no childcare or help. Anyone sitting from healthcare professions were required to cancel leave and work extra hours.

I can utterly understand the horror of feeling points might go up, im not sure if I should sit again myself in Sept but it does appear less people sat the exam so we need to wait and see what happens. It's a best fit given the pandemic. If you were borderline it probably would have been a good idea to sit it if you could and you could have chosen your best grade. If you weren't borderline then points probably won't go up much. I hope it works out for you.

RoundPony

medgal22 wrote: »

My post is not a personal attack on those that have done well in this exam online.... The exam just does not compare to the physical sitting and thats just it. So the fact points could rise for entry to courses based on inflated scores from the online sitting is very frustrating, given the absolute marathon the physical sitting is. There is no comparison so if points rise overall, there has to be some discrepancy

I think the fact that you refer to them as "inflated" is implying that you think they are artificially inflated thus insulting those with great scores (looking at you PlumBella28 - congrats you had a great score). While this may not actually be your intention, you are still doing it.

As somebody else mentioned, percentiles may differ from previous years but the total population of test takers is going to affect the CAO acceptance scores so you really will have no idea yet. I would assume that the prep course would likely have some insight into numbers taking the test even if just a sample from the amount of contacts they have had. If they have said numbers are small for this sitting then percentile won't be as big an indicator as a normal sitting.

The wait is long enough for everyone so no point in being negative about the process and complaining at least until you know. You also seem to be exaggerating things around extra time, etc. I don't really see how this helps you and none of it appears to be true.

Good luck everyone.

medgal22

RoundPony wrote: »

I think the fact that you refer to them as "inflated" is implying that you think they are artificially inflated thus insulting those with great scores (looking at you PlumBella28 - congrats you had a great score). While this may not actually be your intention, you are still doing it.

As somebody else mentioned, percentiles may differ from previous years but the total population of test takers is going to affect the CAO acceptance scores so you really will have no idea yet. I would assume that the prep course would likely have some insight into numbers taking the test even if just a sample from the amount of contacts they have had. If they have said numbers are small for this sitting then percentile won't be as big an indicator as a normal sitting.

The wait is long enough for everyone so no point in being negative about the process and complaining at least until you know. You also seem to be exaggerating things around extra time, etc. I don't really see how this helps you and none of it appears to be true.

Good luck everyone.

Hmm, I have actually spoken to individuals that have their tests reopened and have previously seen the questions and got to see them again. So how you know that is untrue is beyond me..... Anyone with any time of rationality can see this test sitting was unfair and not equal in comparison to the standardised version everyone sits every March and September. Its over now and I will move on but I still am not going to agree its in any way acceptable or justifiable as something we should just shut up about and gloss over.

RoundPony

medgal22 wrote: »

Hmm, I have actually spoken to individuals that have their tests reopened and have previously seen the questions and got to see them again. So how you know that is untrue is beyond me..... Anyone with any time of rationality can see this test sitting was unfair and not equal in comparison to the standardised version everyone sits every March and September. Its over now and I will move on but I still am not going to agree its in any way acceptable or justifiable as something we should just shut up about and gloss over.

I'm not saying you are a liar - I just think if it didn't happen to you, there may not be as much truth to it as you think. Maybe these people are also telling the truth but how many people are there - if it was 1 in 1,000 that's a pretty small % of test takers to have seen a question/a few questions. Plus how many questions could they have seen? Did they have hours to read through all the questions then get their test reopened with enough time to still take the whole exam? You are not giving away much in terms of the circumstances around the reopening of the exam so I just fail to see how it is as straightforward as they were given the questions and given (unproctored) time to complete.

Different doesn't equal unfair. They were not the same but both have pros and cons. I get why it would be frustrating to hear a handful of people got big scores and be deflated by it but it doesn't mean it was a completely unjust situation. People were studying and preparing for a paper test in a physical building on one day and then had to take them online. Honestly I think that is more of a disadvantage than anything. Plus it is not like you have tons of time on the GAMSAT to be looking up answers and still finish the exam. I don't see how somebody could cheat and get a better score because you simply wouldn't be able to finish enough questions.

GEMS had online tests this year where we were used to sitting in an exam hall. I can tell you it most definitely wasn't easier.

Flimsy_Boat

medgal22 wrote: »

Hmm, I have actually spoken to individuals that have their tests reopened and have previously seen the questions and got to see them again. So how you know that is untrue is beyond me..... Anyone with any time of rationality can see this test sitting was unfair and not equal in comparison to the standardised version everyone sits every March and September. Its over now and I will move on but I still am not going to agree its in any way acceptable or justifiable as something we should just shut up about and gloss over.

The alternative to an online sitting was to cancel the test altogether, or have the 5-6 hour exam online and unproctored. They didn't have the staff to proctor the longer exam.

Both of these options are not as good as enabling more suitable candidates to compete for places, even if there are some (few??) people who had an unfair advantage. As it was pointed out by another poster, some people had children competing for their attention during the exam. Not to mention the stress of having to organise a suitable spot in a busy household (or apartment? with housemates?) to do the exam.

Edited to add - If you actually email the medical schools, make sure you are anonymous. The medical school admissions staff are human and I don't see them responding kindly to what appears to be sour grapes.

medgal22

There are 30 EU places in RCSI. - If 6 people got an unfair advantage, that is 1/5 of the class (of those that entered through the EU route) I don't mind you saying snide comments "sour grapes", and I will in no way be anonymous in my email. It is lack of transparency that underlines this whole situation. There are always options even in a pandemic on how to assess entry. This is not a fair assessment - completely true that some people didn't even have a proper quiet place to sit it without being disturbed. It is not standardised for anyone.... hence not an equal chance. Id rather delay a year going to college and sit everything properly knowing it was an equal assessment than this. It can be more stressful competing in a rat race like this than cancelling an exam and sitting it the next year.

RoundPony

medgal22 wrote: »

There are 30 EU places in RCSI. - If 6 people got an unfair advantage, that is 1/5 of the class (of those that entered through the EU route) I don't mind you saying snide comments "sour grapes", and I will in no way be anonymous in my email. It is like of transparency that underlines this whole situation. There are always options even in a pandemic on how to assess entry. This is not a fair assessment - completely true that some people didn't even have a proper quiet place to sit it without being disturbed. It is not standardised for anyone.... hence not an equal chance. Id rather delay a year going to college and sit everything properly knowing it was an equal assessment than this. It can be more stressful competing in a rat race like this than cancelling an exam and sitting it the next year.

This exam is important for everyone. Being adaptable is also important to success in medicine in many ways. As I said before, this exam wasn't without its own difficulties by moving online. Maybe you should be a little less worried about supposed cheaters and more about looking at your own strengths and weaknesses. This might help you achieve your goals in the long term rather than stressing.

You still have not addressed how many people you spoke to that openly admitted to cheating by seeing questions early and not finishing at the right time. Your anger should really be directed at them - why haven't you reported these people to Acer? You have not mentioned being angry at these people who you say admitted to cheating. You didn't specify how long they had access to questions, how much extra time they gained, etc. Are these people random anonymous internet people who you don't know in person? Would be crazy to imagine somebody lying while hiding behind an internet username.

Enlighten us as to how unfair this whole situation is by facts not opinions. Then people might care. Until then, good luck with your one man/woman crusade. Don't think life is ever going to work out the way you expect until you learn a few life lessons about change and fairness.

If you would rather delay a year then why are you even bothered about the scores this year? Just wait next year until the system is "fair again" as you think.

Also if any of these people that told you they cheated are your friends, find some new friends because you are the only one who knows several people that cheated. You don't have good taste in people.

medgal22

RoundPony wrote: »

This exam is important for everyone. Being adaptable is also important to success in medicine in many ways. As I said before, this exam wasn't without its own difficulties by moving online. Maybe you should be a little less worried about supposed cheaters and more about looking at your own strengths and weaknesses. This might help you achieve your goals in the long term rather than stressing.

You still have not addressed how many people you spoke to that openly admitted to cheating by seeing questions early and not finishing at the right time. Your anger should really be directed at them - why haven't you reported these people to Acer? You have not mentioned being angry at these people who you say admitted to cheating. You didn't specify how long they had access to questions, how much extra time they gained, etc. Are these people random anonymous internet people who you don't know in person? Would be crazy to imagine somebody lying while hiding behind an internet username.

Enlighten us as to how unfair this whole situation is by facts not opinions. Then people might care. Until then, good luck with your one man/woman crusade. Don't think life is ever going to work out the way you expect until you learn a few life lessons about change and fairness.

If you would rather delay a year then why are you even bothered about the scores this year? Just wait next year until the system is "fair again" as you think.

Also if any of these people that told you they cheated are your friends, find some new friends because you are the only one who knows several people that cheated. You don't have good taste in people.

Im not interested in getting into a personal attack about this at all. I have my opinions and you have yours. There is really no need to be that personal and horrible about this. Also I said these individuals had an unfair advantage, it is you that is using the word cheat. Best of luck with everything, Im not interested in cutting you down as you have with me! As a future medic, I hope I never resort to speaking to someone else like that, regardless of whether its anonymous or not/online/in person. Its quite disgusting.

markocokram

Do people reckon a 63 will get RCSI this year?

bella11

markocokram wrote: »

Do people reckon a 63 will get RCSI this year?

Its difficult to know...

taxignorant

markocokram wrote: »

Do people reckon a 63 will get RCSI this year?

It's hard to know, I'm looking for a Dublin spot with 62 and I'm hoping it translates to an offer but equally I won't be too surprised if I have to resit in March.

It is such a strange year!

bella11

taxignorant wrote: »

It's hard to know, I'm looking for a Dublin spot with 62 and I'm hoping it translates to an offer but equally I won't be too surprised if I have to resit in March.

It is such a strange year!

I suppose it depends, the bell curve doesn't look promising that points will stay the same. I got 62 aswell... its mad how we all thought points would drop and now people are debating if over 60 would get a place!! I'm debating whether to reapply for September as precautionary, just because I can't leave Dublin at the moment for personal reasons...roll on August 8th..!

hazelnut11

went from 51 in September to 65 in this sitting with no prep and guessed most of section 1! feels surreal but I'm glad it was online, I was much more relaxed for it at home!

Planemo

Something tells me the people who are complaining about unfairness will change their tune fairly quickly if they get offered a place. :rolleyes:

taxignorant

It occurred to me too that if the course was fully subsidized by the state that smarter candidates would get my place, but equally if I was richer I could have paid for someone to mind my kids while I studied. I couldn't apply for something like this without having saved for years and having a supportive partner. I bet there are a bunch of amazing candidates who cant consider applying for financial reasons.

I'm not sure I wouldn't be really annoyed if I was in that person's position but equally if you have a borderline score the best insurance is to do the resits and take best score. Gradmed cut offs, like mortgage interest rates and the stock market can rise and fall.

If there is a genuine and valid argument people want to put forward to the admissions of Irish colleges I am sure they will try to adjust the process somehow to ensure fairness. If not the only thing is to try again.

taxignorant

bella11 wrote: »

I suppose it depends, the bell curve doesn't look promising that points will stay the same. I got 62 aswell... its mad how we all thought points would drop and now people are debating if over 60 would get a place!! I'm debating whether to reapply for September as precautionary, just because I can't leave Dublin at the moment for personal reasons...roll on August 8th..!

I've just been sitting with a print out of the curve comparison and a ruler trying to see in my crystal speculation ball what the future holds! We might be ok on our 62s Bella but it could be very tight. It all depends on the number of candidates, where they want etc. Roll on August 8th.

gradmed2020

Sat the Exam in September and got a solid score which would have got me into UL (first preference as I spoke to people who are on the course and completed it and the way of teaching suits me personally). Devastated after seeing the curves for the May 2020 sitting, from comparing the two curves, I am down about 10 percentile points. Really annoyed as ACER said that the 2 exams would align in score levels. Understand that ACER were restricted in options in how to run the test but it seems as if someone let the ball drop.

bella11

gradmed2020 wrote: »

Sat the Exam in September and got a solid score which would have got me into UL (first preference as I spoke to people who are on the course and completed it and the way of teaching suits me personally). Devastated after seeing the curves for the May 2020 sitting, from comparing the two curves, I am down about 10 percentile points. Really annoyed as ACER said that the 2 exams would align in score levels. Understand that ACER were restricted in options in how to run the test but it seems as if someone let the ball drop.

I did the online exam and am happy with my score but I really feel sorry for your situation. I agree completely that there is something amiss, ACER handled the whole thing terribly.... It makes no sense that so many people scored so much higher than usual if the sittings are supposed to be directly comparable to each other. I don't know how Irish medical schools can't be suspicious of the fact there is a hike in points when the exam went online. 10 percentile is a massive difference.

Hopeful GEM

am003 wrote: »

I could be wrong but i wouldn't be getting wound up on the curves. If you look at gamsat curves over the years they vary so much year to year and the points have always stayed in the same range. I don't see how this is any different to be honest except this time people are blaming it on it being online when you are always just being compared to the people who sat it. There are 4 curves out there from september 2018 to now that people are eligible to use their scores from and they vary year on year. Seems to me that the curves and percentiles are much more important for application in Australia but i can see how people are upset if their score is suddenly a less percentile than before. But at the end of the day curves have varied over the years with points broadly staying the same. I'm also pretty sure a lot less people took the online exam so either way it could be a tiny number of people in Ireland who even did it. Just my opinion.

You make a really good point there. And another year where the scores and curves shifted similarly and unexpectedly is 2017 (March sitting) and people were also getting upset about the potential for shifts in grade cut offs in Australia. Yet, in Ireland the scores dropped by one point. Also, I know the curves usually are different and done separately for UK and Ireland and there’s a chance it’s the same now (albeit a lot less likely). We don’t know how many people sat before COVID and how many after, let alone where most sitters are living or applying. But honestly, I doubt there’ll be some kinda crazy change like say Limerick hitting 60+ (though it’s possible Dublin ones will hit that)

PhoenixD15

I am going to compare our curve with students in Aus to see if it is a UK/Irl specific. Will let you know how that gpes...even then, we would need to know whether and by how much numbers of applicants had changed to be able to even say if points will go up or down...

hazelnut11

PhoenixD15 wrote: »

I am going to compare our curve with students in Aus to see if it is a UK/Irl specific. Will let you know how that gpes...even then, we would need to know whether and by how much numbers of applicants had changed to be able to even say if points will go up or down...

its so hard to know... a lot of people have been stating scores of above 60 though from this sitting...

PhoenixD15

The curve issued is a global one (exact same for Aus and for Ireland). Not sure if this tells us much other than we should probably not pay it huge attention- without knowing what applicants to Irish universities scored or how many there are it is really hard to tell what is likely to happen...

gradmed2020

From my understanding of percentile curves, it is irrelevant how big of a sample size is taken for when calculating percentiles, that's the whole idea behind percentiles and how they work. I'm going to try get my hands on previous curves to see what's the comparison like. I have a feeling 10 percentile points variance will be sizeable in the Irish points system