WRC hearing

beggars_bush

My partner has a WRC hearing coming up in April against a former employer.
We submitted the claim ourselves after going through all the legislation to see what grounds we had for a complaint.

She was out on maternity leave and the business shut down and she was never paid the redundancy which is owed to her (all other staff got it!), plus holiday pay which is owed to her (7 days). Plus a claim for discrimination against the employer for not informing her about the closure (all other staff got it) and also no contract was given to her by the employer.

The business owner still operates a similar business in another premises.

The question is, do we need legal representation at the WRC hearing?
thanks

nuac

Mod
We cannot give legal advice here. You should consult a solicitor
Leaving open for general comment subject to forum rules

beggars_bush

I didn't ask for legal advice
We want to know should we consult a solicitor?
as in, is a solicitor needed for a WRC hearing

CrankyHaus

By design you do not need legal representation at a WRC hearing. It's supposed to be less formal than a Court and less bound by procedure and rules that a layperson would not know.

However you can have legal representation, or union representation or any other person with the permission of the adjudication officer.
If the other side has legal representation and you don't that may put you at a disadvantage though if the facts of the case are clear the AO may not be impressed if he/she thinks the other side's lawyer is attempting to obfuscate matters through specious arguments.

It may help, greatly, to have legal representation, though some may find the cost prohibitive and it's a decision you'd have to make yourself. I believe you'll nearly always get a better outcome with legal representation.
How comfortable are you and/or your partner with stating her case with reference to the law?
There's a lot of information online if you're willing to nerd up. You could also consider Free Legal Advice Centres or similar to get a grounding on the issues and decide based on what they say whether legal representation is necessary.

beggars_bush

thank you.

we don't have a background in legal matters

Uncle Pierre

Once had a WRC hearing myself involving a former employer, and I had a successful outcome, without having legal representation. So no, you don’t need it.

But then again, the former employer didn’t have it either. But if I’d expected him to, I’d probably have done the same myself.

Overall I suppose my advice would be to try gauge how likely it is that your wife’s former employer will “lawyer up”, and if you think they’re going to, then you consider doing the same yourself.

beggars_bush

One year later and we've finally got a date for the re-arranged hearing.

One full year of the previous employer completely ignoring the WRC and actually moving their business address a number of times since the start of the process

Lenar3556

beggars_bush wrote: »

One year later and we've finally got a date for the re-arranged hearing.

One full year of the previous employer completely ignoring the WRC and actually moving their business address a number of times since the start of the process

Painfully slow.
Has she since received the redundancy pay?
Was she employed by a company or sole trader?
How long was she employed?

Dublin Lad2021

From my experience the other party will try and take liberties because you're not protected, try to get the case delayed out of spite, find any evidence you didn't do everything perfectly etc. Getting a lawyer can help well and there are no win no fee lawyers out there, be prepared for a long wait and don't get discouraged if you lose.

I'm currently involved in a labour court hearing, I didn't use representation in the WRC and I kinda regret it. Allowing the lawyer to properly complete the forms, submissions, statements etc. Getting everything done well will give you piece of mind

Bikerman2019

My wife had a hearing in beggars bush, Tallaght Hospital was represented by IBEC and my wife by SIPTU.


It became a negotiation meeting about a settlement. It may be a good idea to have someone experienced sitting with you as they will have the experience to defend against any concerted effort to blacken you.

beggars_bush

Lenar3556 wrote: »

Painfully slow.
Has she since received the redundancy pay?
Was she employed by a company or sole trader?
How long was she employed?

company that is still trading (they closed one branch)
no redundancy paid. All other staff were paid.
she got no notice the business was closing (while on maternity)
she got no contract from the business
she was told to leave a staff meeting that she attended, about the business closing.
4+ years employed by them

Lenar3556

She can apply for statutory redundancy to be paid by the state.

The most substantive issue otherwise would be one of discrimination.

beggars_bush

Lenar3556 wrote: »

She can apply for statutory redundancy to be paid by the state.

The most substantive issue otherwise would be one of discrimination.

Employer has refused to engage with any process including statutory redundancy.
Has ignored phone calls and letters from WRC
My partner is also owed some holiday pay

Can anyone tell us what a WRC online hearing entails?

Dublin Lad2021

beggars_bush wrote: »

Employer has refused to engage with any process including statutory redundancy.
Has ignored phone calls and letters from WRC
My partner is also owed some holiday pay

Can anyone tell us what a WRC online hearing entails?

Basically after you file your claim(s) you later file your statements and calls for witnesses etc. The other party do the same.

You can advise the WRC if you're willing to enter mediation however if you're not effectively you'll have a hearing via video conference with an adjudicating officer and the other party were you give your side of the story, probably be asked questions mainly fact finding, same will happen with the other party and several weeks later you'll be advised of the outcome of your hearing

Mr. Incognito

Get a solicitor learn their costs

Dont get one- learn their value.

Your call.

beggars_bush

beggars_bush wrote: »

The business owner still operates a similar business in another premises.

Have you checked to see if the business your partner worked for has gone into liquidation/been wound up? If the employer is not responding, chances are the company no longer exists.

Try checking on this site, make sure you input the correct name for your partners employer, not the other “similar” businesses as they may be different companies.

https://www.solocheck.ie/

beggars_bush

Dav010 wrote: »

Have you checked to see if the business your partner worked for has gone into liquidation/been wound up? If the employer is not responding, chances are the company no longer exists.

Try checking on this site, make sure you input the correct name for your partners employer, not the other “similar” businesses as they may be different companies.

https://www.solocheck.ie/

Nope. They're still there.
They have another branch that is still open for business, employing staff
Its a limited company
Accounts filed for 2021

Bikerman2019

beggars_bush wrote: »

Nope. They're still there.
They have another branch that is still open for business, employing staff
Its a limited company
Accounts filed for 2021

Just be sure the other branch is not a different company name. You wont realise it unless you look closely.

For example. Beggarsbush Ltd and Beggersbushirl Ltd.

beggars_bush

Bikerman2019 wrote: »

Just be sure the other branch is not a different company name. You wont realise it unless you look closely.

For example. Beggarsbush Ltd and Beggersbushirl Ltd.

Yeah. Both were trading under the same name. The other branch that is open has the same company name.

beggars_bush

Do we need to presubmit supporting documents in advance to the WRC adjudication officer for the online hearing?

kippy

beggars_bush wrote: »

Do we need to presubmit supporting documents in advance to the WRC adjudication officer for the online hearing?

Engage with a solicitor. Seriously.

beggars_bush

kippy wrote: »

Engage with a solicitor. Seriously.

We have. Our solicitor (who does deal with employment law) has said it might not be worth her taking it on as the redundancy owed isn't huge and in her opinion there isn't a likelihood of an award (which we are aware of)

AnRothar

beggars_bush wrote: »

We have. Our solicitor (who does deal with employment law) has said it might not be worth her taking it on as the redundancy owed isn't huge and in her opinion there isn't a likelihood of an award (which we are aware of)

A professional who specialises in this field has expressed an opinion that you may be on a hiding to nothing and you still are pursuing it?
If you have not better to do then rock on otherwise chalk it down to experience.

beggars_bush

AnRothar wrote: »

A professional who specialises in this field has expressed an opinion that you may be on a hiding to nothing and you still are pursuing it?
If you have not better to do then rock on otherwise chalk it down to experience.

that's not what she advised us.
she said we would most likely win the hearing as all evidence is in our favour, but if she represents us her fee will be deducted from the award.
and we've waited long enough to get the money that is legally owed for redundancy and holiday pay

Uncle Pierre

Have just been keeping an eye on this thread since I contributed back in the early days of it, to say I once had a successful outcome to a WRC hearing myself, without a solicitor. Circumstances would appear to be very different in this one, though.

Anyway...

beggars_bush wrote: »

....in her opinion there isn't a likelihood of an award

and then...

beggars_bush wrote: »

if she represents us her fee will be deducted from the award.

I'm confused.

kippy

beggars_bush wrote: »

that's not what she advised us.
she said we would most likely win the hearing as all evidence is in our favour, but if she represents us her fee will be deducted from the award.
and we've waited long enough to get the money that is legally owed for redundancy and holiday pay

You need legal advice and guidance though - you've pretty much asked for it a number of times already on this thread.

Some of some money is often better than none of no money.

beggars_bush

Uncle Pierre wrote: »

Have just been keeping an eye on this thread since I contributed back in the early days of it, to say I once had a successful outcome to a WRC hearing myself, without a solicitor. Circumstances would appear to be very different in this one, though.

Anyway...



and then...



I'm confused.

On top of what she is actually owed by the former employer

Lenar3556

beggars_bush wrote: »

On top of what she is actually owed by the former employer

From what you say there is a possibility the former employer may not show up. In which case you may be off to a good start.

But you will have another battle trying to collect any award.

beggars_bush

Hearing tomorrow
Just 20 months waiting for this and the redundancy and pay she is owed

And former employer is still denying that she never worked for her, despite her tax records, rota, and work colleagues all saying different.

Red Hare

thank you so true about the blacken you treatment - I was responding to the earlier treatment indicated

Red Hare

Beggars Bush,

the supreme court recently made 3 judgments on an issue of WRC procedures.

Therefore do ask for the right for sworn statements from you opposition on their allegations.
Seek the right to cross examine at a public hearing.

rock on beggars bush

Enter name here

Based on what the OP has said, there was no contract and no acknowledgement of maternity leave being granted either I would suppose. There for in the eyes of the company they will simply claim your partner left the company of her own accord prior to the closing down of the branch, there for negating the exposure to having to pay redundancy. Best case scenario your partner may receive the accrued holiday pay if past due but that would be the extent of the settlement. That is why a solicitor wouldn't touch it as it is hardly worth pursuing from that stand point.

An Ri rua

beggars_bush wrote: »

Yeah. Both were trading under the same name. The other branch that is open has the same company name.

Trading as means nothing for the purposes of your bringing an entity to court. It's the legal entity that is trading as that you must pursue. You need to be sure of your terminology and pay close attention to posters' suggestions in this regard.
Trading as is a brand, a calling card. You must register to use it as a business name. But it means nothing legally. The entity behind it must still be trading. Or you'll have no case.

beggars_bush

Enter name here wrote: »

Based on what the OP has said, there was no contract and no acknowledgement of maternity leave being granted either I would suppose. There for in the eyes of the company they will simply claim your partner left the company of her own accord prior to the closing down of the branch, there for negating the exposure to having to pay redundancy. Best case scenario your partner may receive the accrued holiday pay if past due but that would be the extent of the settlement. That is why a solicitor wouldn't touch it as it is hardly worth pursuing from that stand point.

equality act discrimination due to maternity leave
maternity act discrimination

she has a contract from the previous employer before it changed hands. under TUPE that should be covered.

and yes thanks Red Hare, I'm well aware of the Supreme Court ruling on sworn statements and a public hearing. Would love the chance to bring in that ruling.

Enter name here

beggars_bush wrote: »

equality act discrimination due to maternity leave
maternity act discrimination

she has a contract from the previous employer before it changed hands. under TUPE that should be covered.

and yes thanks Red Hare, I'm well aware of the Supreme Court ruling on sworn statements and a public hearing. Would love the chance to bring in that ruling.

No discrimination if she is deemed a non employee. And you said initially she had no contract now you saying she does? Be clear about the facts at the WRC and not hearsay.

Does she have a contract? If not your words against there's.
Does she have an approved maternity leave form?. If not the rest of your discrimination and redundancy is null and void. Hearsay from employees more likely than not will not be considered and any half decent legal representative will show that.

beggars_bush

Enter name here wrote: »

No discrimination if she is deemed a non employee. And you said initially she had no contract now you saying she does? Be clear about the facts at the WRC and not hearsay.

Does she have a contract? If not your words against there's.
Does she have an approved maternity leave form?. If not the rest of your discrimination and redundancy is null and void. Hearsay from employees more likely than not will not be considered and any half decent legal representative will show that.

yes, we have maternity form and extended maternity form both filled out and stamped
the contract is from previous owner and business changed hands so previous contract should transfer over under TUPE

Enter name here

beggars_bush wrote: »

yes, we have maternity form and extended maternity form both filled out and stamped
the contract is from previous owner and business changed hands so previous contract should transfer over under TUPE

That's completely different from what you stated in your original post. See how much the outcome can change when the facts are laid out. Good luck with it

beggars_bush

Enter name here wrote: »

That's completely different from what you stated in your original post. See how much the outcome can change when the facts are laid out. Good luck with it

Anyway, it seems to have gone well. 2 and a half hours of argument

Enter name here

So what was the outcome?

Red Hare

Its too soon to tell the outcome. It could be months before they know. please let us know.:)

beggars_bush

We won our case on almost all complaints made.

Thanks to all here for their helpful advice

Red Hare

I am delighted for you and your other half. Thanks for letting us know here - its nice to hear good news!

AndrzejL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/116669168#Comment_116669168

Hi, just to chime in I was in a situation where my boss wouldn't allow me to take sick days in February this year, the sickness got progressively worse and I was hospitalised in April with heavy respiratory infection, liquid in lungs and heart issues. I was advised to complain to WRC about it.

I met with solicitor in Dublin, they said "IF we take your case its going to be on a NO WIN NO FEE basis". Few months later I received a call - "Yes we are filing a 'Negligence' WRC complaint form in your name - do you wish to proceed?". I thought to myself "IF they don't take money unless they win they must be confident in winning - I have a solid case and a lawyer has my back..." so I said I wanted to proceed with the whole thing.

They filled the complaint. Recently (29th November) I received e-mail from WRC with the mediation date. They asked to confirm that the date is suitable. I asked my solicitor if the date suits them and if they are going to be present during the process. I was told that the decision will be made and I will be informed. Waited few days. The final date to reply to the mediation date and accepting it was today (5th December) and I have not heard from my solicitor so I assumed they wanted me to skip mediation and go straight for the adjudication but just to confirm I got in touch with my solicitor and was told via e-mail that "We are happy to represent you in the mediation however we will require a small fee of €1,000 before we attend."

So I rang and asked about a "NO WIN NO FEE" thing. I was was told that to have solicitor present they would have to get someone (they are based in Dublin and hearing will be in Limerick) local to represent me. I asked them then IF I should skip the mediation and go for the adjudication instead. I was told it would look bad and during the adjudication hearing I could be told I was not willing to participate in mediation proceedings. So I asked them if they would represent me during the adjudication process. I was told that they would ask for a small fee just like during the mediation hearing...

"No win no fee" my backside.

Basically I do not have €1000. Not mentioning €2000. My confidence in the case is shattered because my only reason to proceed with the case was as I mentioned before 1) Lawyer said he will represent me on NO WIN NO FEE basis 2) Lawyer said he is confident the case is a winning one. Since they are asking for fees now - I think they no longer believe that i can win and they want to get paid upfront and to avoid losses.

I will be attending mediation hearing alone and I believe that I will get creamcrackered in there. We will see.

Just wanted to let you know what a "NO WIN NO FEE" really means.

Another thing I wanted to mention is: Try googling "free wrc lawyer Ireland employees" because the only thing that comes up is a free WRC advice for employers. My employer is well off. He does not need a free lawyer. I do. I guess I am attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis.

Another thing - the whole conversation with my solicitor in Dublin - that happened verbally. There was no written contract. This reminds me that verbal agreement is worth as much as the paper it was written on.

I guess I will get exactly what I paid for...

Cheers.

Andrzej

beggars_bush

We had our research done on all the pieces of legislation and had researched a load of previous WRC cases and Labour court cases with similar background and how they favoured the complainant.

I had counter arguments to anything the opposing representative could say and they got success on two points that were raised

Our biggest regret was not filing a discrimination case based on the maternity leave as that would have been a bigger award

Best of luck with it

AndrzejL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119960888#Comment_119960888

Thank you. I will need it.

Kindest regards.

Andrzej