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Family member rule / termination of tenancy

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124

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    #92
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users Posts: 4,638 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    BaZmO* wrote: »
    Did he though?

    Was speaking generally but as to that, I don't know? Do you? How will anybody know until he moves in the family member.


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    #93
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users Posts: 4,638 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    Firefork wrote: »
    ANYWAY
    thank you for the helpful and not so helpful information

    Particularly for the two private pm’s

    Most helpful and informative

    Apologies to any landlords who may have been triggered or offended .

    I always like the way, that in these threads, it only takes a few pages of not hearing exactly what the individual wants to hear gives everybody a somewhat fuller picture of said individual.


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    #94
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Firefork wrote: »
    One question for you

    As a Tennant was I
    Entitled to a rent book
    ?????

    You are but they are almost unheard of nowadays, it never entered my head to look for one when I rented as it had no purpose.


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    #95
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Emery Rapping Ringleader wrote: »
    You are but they are almost unheard of nowadays, it never entered my head to look for one when I rented as it had no purpose.

    In the RTB they make a big deal about rent books.


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    #96
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,523 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    In the RTB they make a big deal about rent books.

    You just contact Local Authority and they get on to LL about it. When paying rent by electronic transfer, it’s about as relevant as a telex/fax machine.


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    #97
    BaZmO*
    Registered Users Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭BaZmO*


    andekwarhola wrote: »
    Was speaking generally but as to that, I don't know? Do you? How will anybody know until he moves in the family member.

    Didn't sound like you were speaking in general terms, but hey, knock yourself out with the backtracking.


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    #98
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Firefork wrote: »
    Thank you most helpful

    So you are going to use that against them too?


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    #99
    Firefork
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭Firefork


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    So you are going to use that against them too?

    Gee you got a very negative view of Tenants ray

    I’m not John wick
    He hasn’t killed my dog

    Relax


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    #100
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Firefork wrote: »
    Gee you got a very negative view of Tenants ray

    I’m not John wick
    He hasn’t killed my dog

    Relax

    No I am responding to what you have been saying. I note that you ignore questions which is what people do when they plan to do what you are asking about. Why are you so bothered about the rent book? Nobody accused you of not paying


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    #101
    Firefork
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭Firefork


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    No I am responding to what you have been saying. I note that you ignore questions which is what people do when they plan to do what you are asking about. Why are you so bothered about the rent book? Nobody accused you of not paying

    I’ve asked advice
    Got it


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    #102
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Firefork wrote: »
    I’ve asked advice
    Got it

    You did more than ask for advice. You complained and made a big deal about issue while chastising people.


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    #103
    Firefork
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭Firefork


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    You did more than ask for advice. You complained and made a big deal about issue while chastising people.

    Touché ray touché


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    #104
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Dav010 wrote: »
    You just contact Local Authority and they get on to LL about it. When paying rent by electronic transfer, it’s about as relevant as a telex/fax machine.

    If you run claim for rent arrears in the RTB, they will query the absence of rent book and force you to prove the rent wasn't paid. They will insist that the regulation says a rent book must be provided and most listen to anything about bank transfers.


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    #105
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    In the RTB they make a big deal about rent books.

    I've never heard of anyone having one. They are a thing from the past.


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    #106
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Emery Rapping Ringleader wrote: »
    I've never heard of anyone having one. They are a thing from the past.

    How many times have you been in the RTB?


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    #107
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    How many times have you been in the RTB?

    Irrelevant. How many people have one nowadays, a tiny percentage of renters you can be sure.

    What is the point of a rent book exactly that the RTB supposedly get their knickers in a twist over them?


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    #108
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,523 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    How many times have you been in the RTB?

    I thought complaints about rent books were handled by local authorities. Out of interest, what was the penalty in the RTB dispute for not having one?


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    #109
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users Posts: 4,638 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    BaZmO* wrote: »
    Didn't sound like you were speaking in general terms, but hey, knock yourself out with the backtracking.

    Why the tone?

    I've just reread my post and my point was largely general about the flak landlords get when most have propped up the rental market here before the influx of large investment companies which will be even less likely to care much about tenants.

    As for its application to the OP, how do you have any more idea than anybody else if the landlord here is above board? Unless you're prescient enough to know if they actually will use the property for a family member?

    If you're one of those people that's automatically butthurt about landlords, fair enough but no need to sound off on me?


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    #110
    overkill602
    Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭overkill602


    Dav010 wrote: »
    I thought complaints about rent books were handled by local authorities. Out of interest, what was the penalty in the RTB dispute for not having one?


    3 years ago DCC came to do an inspection and requested rent books a couple of tenants had lost them, so DCC suggested i issue new ones just bought small copybooks
    Threshold have rent books on sale 4 €5 in most shops as its the LL responsibility i would never support this organization



    Where all tenants pay DD and are issued a non term lease which i do to contain all information pertaining to the letting this is better than rent books copy stays in the cloud


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    #111
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Emery Rapping Ringleader wrote: »
    Irrelevant. How many people have one nowadays, a tiny percentage of renters you can be sure.

    What is the point of a rent book exactly that the RTB supposedly get their knickers in a twist over them?

    Under the Housing (Rent Books) Regulations, 1993. The landlord must give the tenant a rent book. The RTB, in a case where the landlord claims arrears of rent, ask to see the rent book. If it is not produced or there isn't one the RTB may well presume that the landlord has not proven his case with regard arrears of rent and may also hold that the landlord is in breach of his obligations and impose a penalty.

    You have obviously never been in the RTB and haven't been through the experience of having this issue brought up.


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    #112
    1874
    Registered Users Posts: 2,400 ✭✭✭1874


    AulWan wrote: »
    I never said anything of the sort.

    And I don't dislike landlords in principle. I dislike assholes.

    I also dislike property owners (landlords or otherwise) who place more value on bricks and mortar then they do on other human beings.

    The OP does not come across as angry at all, there is more upset then anger in his posts - though he actually has good reason to be furious, seeing the ****ty way his landlord has treated him, after such a long time.

    But there is always karma.


    More value on bricks and mortar than humans?? you'd think the landlord was cutting off the water or some essential service, or causing some direct ill to befall the OP or their children! It is a business transaction, landlords are not charities, they have obligations in terms of mortgages, taxes etc, this landlord sounds to have done things correctly and yet the OP/tenant is still pi$$ed because they didnt drop around for a chat and a cup of tea based on some informal, perceived or expected duration of rental, for which neither the tenant or the landlord is obliged to commit to and for which the landlord could easily be pulled up on.

    Firefork wrote: »
    Indeed
    I’ve no problem moving
    I’m fact I’ve already sorted out something

    My issue is being led to believe I had another two year tenancy agreed

    And my contract plus the non existent rent would be supplied as agreed


    Jeez, you have a place, and you're pi$$ed at the landlord as they have decided to end the tenancy, there is no requirement or landlord to commit to such an agreement, they may have just said it to keep you happy or because they thought thats what was going to happen or maybe you thought that was going to happen, things change, who knows what circumstances changed that they require to give notice, they state their son? needs the place, thats a legitimate reason, if its not correct, then you'd have cause to be pissed, but if it is correct, then its just sour grapes. You seem by your own account to have been getting a very good deal, could make the place your own, would you have preferred a landlord that didnt permit you to decorate the place as you please and live in a decor of their choosing? you made it comfortable for yourself, you enjoyed that and now complain, which proves there is no benefit in a landlord doing anything, ANYTHING in favour of a tenant.


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Under the Housing (Rent Books) Regulations, 1993. The landlord must give the tenant a rent book. The RTB, in a case where the landlord claims arrears of rent, ask to see the rent book. If it is not produced or there isn't one the RTB may well presume that the landlord has not proven his case with regard arrears of rent and may also hold that the landlord is in breach of his obligations and impose a penalty.

    You have obviously never been in the RTB and haven't been through the experience of having this issue brought up.


    The whole rent book seems a bit outdated when electronic transfers are going to be more accurate records of what has been paid, a handy hardcopy record for the tenant and landlord to sign and agree jointly and its a requirement, but if landlords were turning up every month you'd have tenants complaining, when I was a landlord I provided a rent book, but I never saw the tenant or the rentbook couldnt be found, I only had my copy and I couldnt really just fill that in myself and rely on that to be accepted.


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    #113
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,523 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    Under the Housing (Rent Books) Regulations, 1993. The landlord must give the tenant a rent book. The RTB, in a case where the landlord claims arrears of rent, ask to see the rent book. If it is not produced or there isn't one the RTB may well presume that the landlord has not proven his case with regard arrears of rent and may also hold that the landlord is in breach of his obligations and impose a penalty..

    Did the RTB rule that the rent could not be proved to be in arrears because there was no rent book? Has every adjudication on rent arrears depended on a rent book being produced? I am genuinely asking, I’ve read a few cases on the RTB website over the years and can’t remember one where rent was not being paid by the tenant, but the case was ruled in favour of the tenant because of the rent book.

    A search of RTB site dispute adjudications with “rent book” as a key word appears to show zero results, can you link to the cases you have attended where the rent book or lack there of was a determining factor n the adjudication. Thanks


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    #114
    Firefork
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭Firefork


    Again
    Thank you everyone for your comments
    Both helpful and unhelpful

    Contacted the correct agencies
    And I’ve a definite course of action now


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    #115
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Firefork wrote: »
    Again
    Thank you everyone for your comments
    Both helpful and unhelpful

    Contacted the correct agencies
    And I’ve a definite course of action now

    Care to share?


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    #116
    Firefork
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭Firefork


    Zulu wrote: »
    Care to share?


    I will indeed
    When I’ve it sorted
    Be a few weeks


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    #117
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Did the RTB rule that the rent could not be proved to be in arrears because there was no rent book? Has every adjudication on rent arrears depended on a rent book being produced? I am genuinely asking, I’ve read a few cases on the RTB website over the years and can’t remember one where rent was not being paid by the tenant, but the case was ruled in favour of the tenant because of the rent book.

    A search of RTB site dispute adjudications with “rent book” as a key word appears to show zero results, can you link to the cases you have attended where the rent book or lack there of was a determining factor n the adjudication. Thanks

    RTB adjudications only report the determination order on the website. I have been at a number of adjudications where there was a dispute about rent arrears typically involving the tenant insisting the unpaid rent which the landlord hadn't recorded. In every case where there was no rent book, the adjudicator went with the tenant. Furthermore, some adjudicators take the view that the landlord has breached his statutory obligations and will effectively find the landlord which will also be offset against the rent arrears.


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    #118
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,523 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    RTB adjudications only report the determination order on the website. I have been at a number of adjudications where there was a dispute about rent arrears typically involving the tenant insisting the unpaid rent which the landlord hadn't recorded. In every case where there was no rent book, the adjudicator went with the tenant. Furthermore, some adjudicators take the view that the landlord has breached his statutory obligations and will effectively find the landlord which will also be offset against the rent arrears.

    So where the LL showed hat rent was no longer paid into his/her account, but could not produce a rent book, they lost? The disputes also outline the complaint, can you link to one which says, no rent book = no case for tenant to answer or offset against arrears? I am genuinely interested. A tenant who pays electronically, as the vast majority no doubt do, will be able to show rent was paid by producing bank statements, same for LL to show rent was stopped.

    You seem to know these cases, having been to RTB adjudications.


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    #119
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Dav010 wrote: »
    So where the LL showed hat rent was no longer paid into his/her account, but could not produce a rent book, they lost? The disputes also outline the complaint, can you link to one which says, no rent book = no case for tenant to answer?

    The tribunal reports simply say rent arrears case. The adjudications do not give a report which is put online. It is given to the parties only. In most of those cases there isn't an appeal because the landlord won't get the rent arrears anyway.


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    #120
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,523 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Claw Hammer wrote: »
    The tribunal reports simply say rent arrears case. The adjudications do not give a report which is put online. It is given to the parties only. In most of those cases there isn't an appeal because the landlord won't get the rent arrears anyway.

    Claw Hammer, if you go into the disputes portal on the RTB site and click on Tribunal reports, it gives the background, procedures, submissions, findings & reasons. So it would mention if a lack of a rent book was crucial in the determination. Which cases are are referring to?

    I think this will be important reading to lots of LLs as most rely on electronic recording of rent payments. So confirmation of a disputes which hinged on rent books would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.


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    #121
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,236 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Claw Hammer, if you go into the disputes portal on the RTB site and click on Tribunal reports, it gives the background, procedures, submissions, findings & reasons. So it would mention if a lack of a rent book was crucial in the determination. Which cases are are referring to?

    I think this will be important reading to lots of LLs as most rely on electronic recording of rent payments. So confirmation of a disputes which hinged on rent books would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

    You don't get adjudication reports on the website. The adjudication reports are private to the parties only. I have only been involved at this issue in adjudications. They will only come before the tribunal if they are appealed. As I have pointed out, they rarely are appealed if ever.


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