Family member rule / termination of tenancy

Claw Hammer

Dav010 wrote: »

Claw Hammer, they publish their findings and reasons, if the lack of a Rent Book formed part of of the reason for finding in favour of the tenant, it would be on the Report, the other reasons for their decisions are there. The RTB work on a balance of probability, not on absolutes such as, no rent book = no proof of non payment of rent, the reports contain all information related to the dispute.

An example of this is:

https://onestopshop.rtb.ie/downloads/tribunal-report/TR0219-003550_Report.pdf

I am not trying to trip you up, but I suspect few landlords have rent books now as both parties can easily produce bank statements to prove their point if rent is paid electronically. So your assertion that a LL will lose a dispute because of not having one when a tenant stops paying rent, is very important.

That is a Tribunal report, not an adjudication report. Look at the background
"On 11 October 2018 the Tenant made an application to the Residential Tenancies Board
(“the RTB”) pursuant to Section 78 of the Act. The matter was referred to an Adjudication
which took place on 05 December 2018. The Adjudicator determined that:".

It is an appeal from an adjudication. You won't find any adjudication reports there, only the determinations.

Claw Hammer

Dav010 wrote: »

It was just an example of the detail online about RTB disputes, I didn’t even read it to be honest. I find it difficult to believe that with all that type of information on disputes, a search for rent book brings up zero results. Sorry Claw Hammer, unless you can show me even one reference to the absence of a rent book being considered as a reason for a finding or adjudication, I find it hard to accept what you say.

Given that most landlords do not seem to provide rent books and non payment of rent is a common reason for terminations and indeed disputes, by your rationale, the none provision of rent books should be all over the site on rent payment disputes.

As I have pointed out, I have attended adjudications where the rent book issue was raised. It usually resulted in the landlord getting an order for a lower sum of arrears than was the case. There was no point in the landlord appealing as they would not get the sum which was awarded, let alone a higher sum. Unless it gets to a Tribunal hearing it wont be on the site. In any case, the search facility on that site is terrible It applies to parties and address and the nature of the dispute which will be arrears of rent. rent book as a search will not show anything. It has sometimes taken me hours to find a report even en I know it is there and what the subject of it was.

Dav010

Claw Hammer wrote: »

As I have pointed out, I have attended adjudications where the rent book issue was raised. It usually resulted in the landlord getting an order for a lower sum of arrears than was the case. There was no point in the landlord appealing as they would not get the sum which was awarded, let alone a higher sum. Unless it gets to a Tribunal hearing it wont be on the site. In any case, the search facility on that site is terrible It applies to parties and address and the nature of the dispute which will be arrears of rent. rent book as a search will not show anything. It has sometimes taken me hours to find a report even en I know it is there and what the subject of it was.

Seems amazing that in all those appeals/tribunals, the rent book that you say is so important at adjudication, doesn’t seem to matter that much or even deserve a mention. Go figure

Claw Hammer

Dav010 wrote: »

Seems amazing that in all those appeals/tribunals, the rent book that you say is so important at adjudication, doesn’t seem to matter that much or even deserve a mention. Go figure

Because the landlord doesn't appeal if he gets his possession order. neither does the tenant who has got away with not paying rent. The only way to find if it did feature at the tribunal is to read every report. the reports are not searchable for key words. i am not going to read every report to look for it. You can if you want.
You don't seem to be familiar with the RTBs reporting system but are condemning me because it doesn't jump out at you.

Dav010

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Because the landlord doesn't appeal if he gets his possession order. neither does the tenant who has got away with not paying rent. The only way to find if it did feature at the tribunal is to read every report. the reports are not searchable for key words. i am not going to read every report to look for it. You can if you want.
You don't seem to be familiar with the RTBs reporting system but are condemning me because it doesn't jump out at you.

Sorry, I am in no way condemning you. I am saying that in all the reports I have read, never once has the lack of a rent book been mentioned. If it is as important as you say, considering how few LLs seem to give rent books, it should be there. Rent books are a matter for the LA, they just contact LL to inform them they are a requirement. The RTB work on a balance of probability, that we know from reading their reports. It is unrealistic to say the adjudications deal in absolutes, but the Tribunal does not. You made a statement which is very important for LLs, I don’t feel it is too much to ask you to back it up.

Claw Hammer

Dav010 wrote: »

Sorry, I am in no way condemning you. I am saying that in all the reports I have read, never once has the lack of a rent book been mentioned. If it is as important as you say, considering how few LLs seem to give rent books, it should be there. Rent books are a matter for the LA, they just contact LL to inform them they are a requirement. The RTB work on a balance of probability, that we know from reading their reports. It is unrealistic to say the adjudications deal in absolutes, but the Tribunal does not. You made a statement which is very important for LLs, I don’t feel it is too much to ask you to back it up.

What you are asking me to do is read every tribunal report, ever , until I find a reference to rent books. You don't think it is too much? After posting a link to a report you didn't read yourself.
You don't seem to appreciate that adjudication reports are not on line. I have explained that I only have experience of the issue being raised at adjudications. i have also explained that none of them were appealed, hence there are no associated tribunal reports.
You talk about "all the reports I have read" when you didn't even read the one you linked.
You have read how many reports? any reports you have read (if any)are not of adjudications, unless you were involved in the adjudication.
Give me a break.

Firefork

Claw Hammer wrote: »

What you are asking me to do is read every tribunal report, ever , until I find a reference to rent books. You don't think it is too much? After posting a link to a report you didn't read yourself.
You don't seem to appreciate that adjudication reports are not on line. I have explained that I only have experience of the issue being raised at adjudications. i have also explained that none of them were appealed, hence there are no associated tribunal reports.
You talk about "all the reports I have read" when you didn't even read the one you linked.
You have read how many reports? any reports you have read (if any)are not of adjudications, unless you were involved in the adjudication.
Give me a break.

As it’s been explained to me by pm several times now

This thread has a lot of landlords commenting on it

End of the day
The law is the law
And some people don’t want you knowing your full rights

The RTB
THE COUNCIL
and the land registry
Have been an eye opener

Claw Hammer

Dav010 wrote: »

Look, few landlords give rent books, lots of disputes involve rent arrears, if what you said was correct, it should be coming up as a consideration in a high percentage of rent arrears/invalid termination cases, but you have not been able to link to a single one. The report I linked to was to illustrate the detail that is posted online about disputes, not the case itself. If rent books are as important and have such a baring in RTB rent arrears disputes, it should be mentioned lots of times, it isn’t. What can we take from that? When it comes to disputes, rent books don’t seem to matter, if they did and you are right, LLs would lose every appeal because they would not be able to prove the tenant hasn’t paid.

What I said was that I have attended adjudication hearings where the issue arose. For the umpteenth time there are no adjudication reports on the RTB website. How can you expect me to link to something that doesn't exist?
I know perfectly well what detail is posted online about disputes. It is derived solely from tribunal reports not adjucation reports, something you appear to be entirely ignorant of.
Furthermore it is searchable only by subject matter, address and name, something you also appear to be ignorant of.
You don't say how many reports you have read. Have you read all of them?
LLs don't appeal adjudications where they get a lower sum than they are entitled to. Why would they, so how can your statement be that LLs would lose every appeal when they don't bring them?
Get real.

Claw Hammer

Dav010 wrote: »

And for the umpteenth time, if something is important at adjudication, it would be equally important at the Tribunal, considering they are both overseen by the RTB and their rules would be consistent. Unless of course you are claiming rent books only matter at adjudications and not at other hearings?

So far you have zero to back up your claim about the importance of rent books at hearings. What you claim would have major implications for LLs at RTB hearings, asking for some evidence of that is not much to ask.

I suspect calling me ignorant and insulting me is a way of deflecting.

If something is at adjudication, it must be appealed to be heard by the tribunal.
I have not been involved in an appeal to the tribunal where it has arisen. I cannot give what I don't have.
Do you seriously expect me to read through every tribunal report to find what you are looking for?

Claw Hammer

Dav010 wrote: »

Given that so few LLs give rent books, and so many disputes are over evictions due to rent arrears, it shouldn’t take you long at all to find one, if what you said is actually true.

I haven’t been able to find even a mention of a rent book, and I’ve read quite a few reports.

So you expect me to look at every Tribunal report.

Dav010 wrote: »

Amazingly, not a single mention that the existence of a rent book can impact a ruling/tribunal determination on the RTB site. Seems it is only important at adjudication, not doesn’t get any consideration at a Tribunal. Bit inconsistent wouldn’t you say.

You cant be sure of that unless you have read every report, which you clearly haven't. sometimes tenants admit the arrears and it goes no further.

Dav010 wrote: »

I’m going to come straight out and say it, in a digital age where both parties can confirm/dispute rent payments by showing statements from banks, I find it hard to believe that the lack of a rent book is given as much importance as you claim. I will apologise profusely if you can show me link to confirm your claim.

I have simply pointed out my experience of adjudications in which the issue of a rent book was raised. Not every tenant pays by electronic transfer and not every landlord collects by that method.
In my experience of the RTb the burden of proof is on the landlord and in situations where the landlord is not complying with regulations the decision goes against the landlord. Rent books or the equivalent are a legal requirement and it can be significant when there is a dispute.

You can believe what you like. You have demonstrated a considerable lack of knowledge of the RTB and its database and you expect me to go hunting around an unsearchable database for your benefit. No way.

Zulu

....it's like watching a dog chase it's tail.

Claw Hammer

Dav010 wrote: »

In other words, you can’t back up your claim. If it is as significant as you claim, references to rent books should be on almost every dispute relating to rent arrears given how few LLs give them to tenants.

No they wouldn't. Most disputes are about deposit retention and overholding and invalid notice of termination. Not all adjudications are appealed, particularly ones where the amount of arrears is in dispute. You are simply speculating. I can't back up what I am saying with a link for very good reasons. You on the other hand are trying to draw inferences based on a misconception of the true position.

handlemaster

Note again landlords should always charge the max rent at all times. The tenant will always feel hard done by. In this case the OP has spend nothing really and has have no rent increase for 10 years , but now the LL want the property for his relative the tenants looks for compensation.

A landlord is never right in the eyes of the tenant.

Pkiernan

Irish_peppa wrote: »

Is this the thread about the tenant wanting to take the floors with him still going a week later in the middle of a pandemic:rolleyes: Jasus Lads

It was okay until it devolved in to someone whinging on about reading every RTB tribunal decision.

Firefork

Zulu wrote: »

....it's like watching a dog chase it's tail.

Pity the bars are closed

They could be the the next Ross and Rachael