Schools closed until undetermined date - was March 29th

rainbowtrout

Ger Roe wrote: »

Regardless of the added stress and possible mental health implications?

Every student is in the same boat at the moment. It's less stressful if they go ahead.

Think about it for a second, say the SEC called off the LC tomorrow. What would happen??? Your child (and others like them) would be incredibly stressed at the idea that the work they've put in for the last 2 years has gone down the drain. Let's say it was announced that an alternative form of assessment was put in place. The stress of not knowing what that was, how it would work, when it would happen, how it would impact on college entry, and having no face to face contact with teachers for some reassurance would be far more stressful than going ahead with the LC in the current climate.

It may take place under these very unusual circumstances, but all students have been affected by them. It's not unique to one school, or one region of the country. Everyone is on lockdown.

The bulk of the work in most subjects is done by March, granted not every course is finished, but people are more or less getting to that point. Teachers are starting revision and doing exam papers. Students start to drop off slowly after Easter usually. If this had happened in November, it would be a far bigger issue for the Leaving Cert taking place than it is now, in terms of the point in the academic year when they finished up school.

The LC is stressful, it always has been, this is an added stress certainly... but the students are comfortable with what they know. The LC is what they know, they've been living with it for nearly 2 years. I'd say the majority would just want to sit it, get it done and move on with their lives if at all possible.

scrubs33

TBH I think the talk of using mock results is a total non runner and I’m sure will be shot down pretty quickly. I’m much more encouraged by the Taoiseach comments about the LC going ahead. I think the JC might go by the wayside but that’s a battle for another day. If there was a little more clarity around a return to school for 6th years, which I think there will be sooner rather than later, that would be another major step towards getting back to normality.

randylonghorn

W

killbillvol2 wrote: »

Their system is completely different. In the UK predicted grades are used already as part of the third level application process. Therefore the kids knew in advance that they would be receiving a predicted grade before they sat their exams. It's then up to them to match it or beat it. They knew their work was being assessed with a predicted grade in mind.

all true and accurate.

However, while its more possible in the UK than here, I don't think it's going to be plain sailing there either.

The normal system is that provisional offers are made on predictive grades, and confirmed (or upgraded / downgraded based on actual final results.

A teacher I know who would usually have A level classes said that when the initial announcement was made the youngsters were over the moon. It only took a couple of days tho for emails to start to come in.

"But ..."

"What if ..."

Etc.

I would not be surprised to see court cases eventually from students who felt they were hard done by.

And that's in a system which has SOME experience of predictive grading.

killbillvol2

randylonghorn wrote: »

Wall true and accurate.

However, while its more possible in the UK than here, I don't think it's going to be plain sailing there either.

The normal system is that provisional offers are made on predictive grades, and confirmed (or upgraded / downgraded based on actual final results.

A teacher I know who would usually have A level classes said that when the initial announcement was made the youngsters were over the moon. It only took a couple of days tho for emails to start to come in.

"But ..."

"What if ..."

Etc.

I would not be surprised to see court cases eventually from students who felt they were hard done by.

And that's in a system which has SOME experience of predictive grading.

I wasn't agreeing with how they handled it over there. I think it's a terrible idea for the reasons you've mentioned.

r93kaey5p2izun

I think exams going ahead in some form is likely the only option. But I think people need to very honest and acknowledge that some are at a much bigger disadvantage than others due to what has happened. Stop saying everyone is in the same boat. Stop trying to downplay that some of our most disadvantaged students will lose out more than ever. They are the ones who receive the most support from school and they are now the ones suffering the most. Those with very poor access to technology for other reasons will also be losing out more.

I find many of the posts here totally at odds with my experience as a teacher. Suddenly teachers are downplaying the importance of every school day, downplaying the importance of teachers in allowing students achieve their potential. "Sure they stop coming in anyway at this stage". "Sure it's just revision after the mocks". That was never my experience. Every day at school mattered. Very few stopped coming to school, and in fact they continued to come in after graduation. They received additional classes during Easter free of charge to try offset the advantage others buy at revision courses. These students are now losing out massively on the supports put in place to try mitigate the disadvantage they suffer ordinarily.

We must be honest and acknowledge these issues. I also think that when the situation resolves, that there will have to be something significant done for 5th Years. Their LC is also affected by this. And I think the drop out rate for 5th Years in disadvantaged areas will be increased significantly after this.

Greensoup

Using mock results won’t work...2 reasons. First some teachers use mocks to practice student timing for each question so teacher revises a lot of the mock questions in the weeks beforehand. Another teacher in the same subject might use the mock to see how students react to questions they might not expect...to see how they react and perform. By June both teachers are at the same place so level playing field. Second issue is mock exams get ‘leaked’ across the country. There’s only 2 companies doing them. One of my lads knew his history mock because another school had their mocks the week before his and questions on it matched what his teacher had been revising coming up to it. So mocks ain’t a level playing field.

randylonghorn

Oh, I wasn't assuming that you were a supporter, Bill, I was just using your post as a springboard for the point I wanted to make.

rainbowtrout

Susan Quiet Stool wrote: »

I think exams going ahead in some form is likely the only option. But I think people need to very honest and acknowledge that some are at a much bigger disadvantage than others due to what has happened. Stop saying everyone is in the same boat. Stop trying to downplay that some of our most disadvantaged students will lose out more than ever. They are the ones who receive the most support from school and they are now the ones suffering the most. Those with very poor access to technology for other reasons will also be losing out more.

I find many of the posts here totally at odds with my experience as a teacher. Suddenly teachers are downplaying the importance of every school day, downplaying the importance of teachers in allowing students achieve their potential. "Sure they stop coming in anyway at this stage". "Sure it's just revision after the mocks". That was never my experience. Every day at school mattered. Very few stopped coming to school, and in fact they continued to come in after graduation. They received additional classes during Easter free of charge to try offset the advantage others buy at revision courses. These students are now losing out massively on the supports put in place to try mitigate the disadvantage they suffer ordinarily.

We must be honest and acknowledge these issues. I also think that when the situation resolves, that there will have to be something significant done for 5th Years. Their LC is also affected by this. And I think the drop out rate for 5th Years in disadvantaged areas will be increased significantly after this.

Nobody is downplaying the importance of school or that some students are at more of a disadvantage from not being in school. But it's still true to say that they currently are in the same boat. None of them can attend school.

Not every school offers free classes at Easter and frankly I wouldn't want to go down that road. Teachers deserve to have a break too. Maybe students don't start slacking off in your school after Easter, but plenty do in other schools. There's the ones who don't care about school who just can't be bothered, and there's the ones who are going for 600 points who feel they will get more done at home where they can study to their own schedule. We see it in my school every year and I know it happens in other schools in the area.

r93kaey5p2izun

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Nobody is downplaying the importance of school or that some students are at more of a disadvantage from not being in school. But it's still true to say that they currently are in the same boat. None of them can attend school.

Not every school offers free classes at Easter and frankly I wouldn't want to go down that road. Teachers deserve to have a break too. Maybe students don't start slacking off in your school after Easter, but plenty do in other schools. There's the ones who don't care about school who just can't be bothered, and there's the ones who are going for 600 points who feel they will get more done at home where they can study to their own schedule. We see it in my school every year and I know it happens in other schools in the area.

I'm sorry but losing access to school does not mean everyone is in the same boat. That's simply not true. What is lost is much greater for some than others. Stating otherwise is downplaying the additional disadvantage suffered by some at this time.

Your and my experiences of schools are obviously quite different. I have no problem with that. But that's my point. The loss of access to school does not put everyone in the same boat.

TheValeyard

Fleetwoodmac wrote: »

Yes teachers are teaching to the best of their ability, I can't see how people can dispute that. Nonetheless, this method of learning represents considerable difficulty for many pupils particularly those who have additional needs. It requires initiative and a self directed learning style, which will satisfy those pupils who don't have specific learning needs. It will not and can not replace the role of SEN teachers and SNAs who can modify and adapt the curriculum to individual learning styles. This unprecedented situation is placing these pupils at a considerable disadvantage.

and what is your proposed solution?

(Not having a go at you, just wondering do you have a solution that could work)

Bobtheman

Having read around and researched I think there will DEFINITELY be a delay. China locked down for 2.5 months and is still delaying a big exam in July.
When I saw the' hook or by crook 'statement about the state exams I had a flash back to ' cheapest bank bailout in the world .Predicted cost 8 billion. Actual cost 64 billion
FF politicians on the radio denying we were about to be bailed out by the IMF. The IMF were already in Ireland!
Let's get real people. We can't even build one ****en children' s hospital on budget !

deiseindublin

Susan Quiet Stool wrote: »

.....some are at a much bigger disadvantage than others due to what has happened.

For sure. I've spent my career to date teaching in a DEIS school and the disadvantages are even more apparent now, parental support, resources, quiet place to study, expectations, actual hunger, lure of illegal activity..... Education has always been unequal, but the span is wider than ever right now.

It'd be interesting to see stats on actual % interaction rates of classes in different schools after all this passes.

Susan Quiet Stool wrote: »

.....when the situation resolves, that there will have to be something significant done for 5th Years. Their LC is also affected by this. And I think the drop out rate for 5th Years in disadvantaged areas will be increased significantly after this.

5th year potentially have suffered a bigger loss to the LC T&L time, it is now that you put your back into the syllabus, no interruptions from orals/practicals/mocks etc.

Alqua

Susan Quiet Stool wrote: »

I think exams going ahead in some form is likely the only option. But I think people need to very honest and acknowledge that some are at a much bigger disadvantage than others due to what has happened. Stop saying everyone is in the same boat. Stop trying to downplay that some of our most disadvantaged students will lose out more than ever. They are the ones who receive the most support from school and they are now the ones suffering the most. Those with very poor access to technology for other reasons will also be losing out more.

I find many of the posts here totally at odds with my experience as a teacher. Suddenly teachers are downplaying the importance of every school day, downplaying the importance of teachers in allowing students achieve their potential. "Sure they stop coming in anyway at this stage". "Sure it's just revision after the mocks". That was never my experience. Every day at school mattered. Very few stopped coming to school, and in fact they continued to come in after graduation. They received additional classes during Easter free of charge to try offset the advantage others buy at revision courses. These students are now losing out massively on the supports put in place to try mitigate the disadvantage they suffer ordinarily.

We must be honest and acknowledge these issues. I also think that when the situation resolves, that there will have to be something significant done for 5th Years. Their LC is also affected by this. And I think the drop out rate for 5th Years in disadvantaged areas will be increased significantly after this.

This x 1000.

No one is denying that all students are in the same boat in terms of the unknown - but some are in canoes and others cruise liners. The school year isn't over until it's over, and every day counts - and that's a good thing. My students rely hugely on being in school and the support it gives them, even the most able and motivated students. Many don't have good/any internet, or access to a computer. Some are having to wait until evening to use their parent's mobile phone to access the work. There are many home situations that do not support working at home at the best of times. Management is doing everything they can, phoning parents and making arrangements to post out work if needed. I'm sure most of the students, if asked, would prefer the exams to go ahead, but the situation is further widening the gap that was already there. I really worry for them.

Rosita

Bobtheman wrote: »

Having read around and researched I think there will DEFINITELY be a delay. China locked down for 2.5 months and is still delaying a big exam in July.
When I saw the' hook or by crook 'statement about the state exams I had a flash back to ' cheapest bank bailout in the world .Predicted cost 8 billion. Actual cost 64 billion
FF politicians on the radio denying we were about to be bailed out by the IMF. The IMF were already in Ireland!
Let's get real people. We can't even build one ****en children' s hospital on budget !

Yeah, Varadker said a few times in the days leading up to the election that he was confident Fine Gael would be the biggest party despite what polls were saying. So he is prone to reality-defying rallying calls.

Gerry T

Rosita wrote: »

Yeah, Varadker said a few times in the days leading up to the election that he was confident Fine Gael would be the biggest party despite what polls were saying. So he is prone to reality-defying rallying calls.

What do you expect him to say on the run up to an election. We're screwed, no point in voting for us. Would that have been better.

RealJohn

Life is unfair. Some students are always at a disadvantage. That’s life. Most of us who post here know that our success as teachers is often measured by our students’ leaving cert results, but most of us also realise that they shouldn’t be and that the leaving cert is a stepping stone, and little more. It’s really only important if you don’t get one at all (and even then, that’s just because certain jobs require one, at present).

Sure, some or the students will be stressed, but I think most of us agree that it will probably be more stressful for most students to have their exams called off and the uncertainty that would come with that.

I can’t speak for anyone else’s school, but in our place, we’re giving the students (and they’re demanding) more and more authority over their education and we’re asking for very little responsibility in return. It’s time for them to take some responsibility and do some growing up.

It’s worth remembering that 100 years ago, 18 year olds were going away to war. Ours are just being asked to take responsibility for their learning before their exams. They’ll manage. It’s really time to stop wrapping them in cotton wool. Life is hard, but it’s a lot easier than it used to be.

And I don’t think these repeated claims that the leaving cert should or will be called off are helpful. It might be difficult to organise them. They might be delayed. It doesn’t seem impractical to me though, if this dies down a bit. Use local facilities, rather than just schools to help with social distancing. Recruit more people to supervise by actually paying them enough to incentivise them.
I actually see the marking of the exams being more of an issue that the exams themselves, because large conferences might necessitate large gatherings, unless they can be done remotely (but with online marking, maybe they can).

We should be preceding under the genuine assumption that the leaving cert, at very least, will go ahead as planned. I think we’re doing our students a disservice if we’re not.

Bobtheman

RealJohn wrote: »

Life is unfair. Some students are always at a disadvantage. That’s life. Most of us who post here know that our success as teachers is often measured by our students’ leaving cert results, but most of us also realise that they shouldn’t be and that the leaving cert is a stepping stone, and little more. It’s really only important if you don’t get one at all (and even then, that’s just because certain jobs require one, at present).

Sure, some or the students will be stressed, but I think most of us agree that it will probably be more stressful for most students to have their exams called off and the uncertainty that would come with that.

I can’t speak for anyone else’s school, but in our place, we’re giving the students (and they’re demanding) more and more authority over their education and we’re asking for very little responsibility in return. It’s time for them to take some responsibility and do some growing up.

It’s worth remembering that 100 years ago, 18 year olds were going away to war. Ours are just being asked to take responsibility for their learning before their exams. They’ll manage. It’s really time to stop wrapping them in cotton wool. Life is hard, but it’s a lot easier than it used to be.

And I don’t think these repeated claims that the leaving cert should or will be called off are helpful. It might be difficult to organise them. They might be delayed. It doesn’t seem impractical to me though, if this dies down a bit. Use local facilities, rather than just schools to help with social distancing. Recruit more people to supervise by actually paying them enough to incentivise them.
I actually see the marking of the exams being more of an issue that the exams themselves, because large conferences might necessitate large gatherings, unless they can be done remotely (but with online marking, maybe they can).

We should be preceding under the genuine assumption that the leaving cert, at very least, will go ahead as planned. I think we’re doing our students a disservice if we’re not.

There will be a leaving cert for sure but if a student asked me when. I'd say I don't know. To say anything else is just dishonest. How can you say it's a genuine assumption when even China is still delaying it's state exams ??

jayo76

Quick question how many teachers here are doing video/zoom classes for students? There has been a growing pressure in emails from management in our school this week for teachers to move from Microsoft Groups/teams contact to beginning video classes.

I am not in favour of it I have to say and feel I am doing more than enough through my emails/ detailed voiced over powerpoints and shared resources to allow and facilitate my students continue their learning. I have started to feel however as more teachers in our school move to zoom that maybe Im not doing enough

rainbowtrout

jayo76 wrote: »

Quick question how many teachers here are doing video/zoom classes for students? There has been a growing pressure in emails from management in our school this week for teachers to move from Microsoft Groups/teams contact to beginning video classes.

I am not in favour of it I have to say and feel I am doing more than enough through my emails/ detailed voiced over powerpoints and shared resources to allow and facilitate my students continue their learning. I have started to feel however as more teachers in our school move to zoom that maybe Im not doing enough

I'm not, and none of my colleagues are to the best of my knowledge. The way I see it is that I'm recording videos (maths solutions) and doing voiceovers and audio files. Students that can't login live when they should have me for class can access those files whenever they want and can listen/watch as many times as they want. If I do it live only those that can login at that time have access.

That and my home is private, I don't want my students watching me at home and I don't want to be watching them at home.

jimmytwotimes 2013

jayo76 wrote: »

Quick question how many teachers here are doing video/zoom classes for students? There has been a growing pressure in emails from management in our school this week for teachers to move from Microsoft Groups/teams contact to beginning video classes.

I am not in favour of it I have to say and feel I am doing more than enough through my emails/ detailed voiced over powerpoints and shared resources to allow and facilitate my students continue their learning. I have started to feel however as more teachers in our school move to zoom that maybe Im not doing enough

Management putting on the squeeze in many places but you know your students best.

Some managers want timetables to be followed with live lessons. This can pose difficulties on a number of fronts- rural broadband, lack of student engagement, staff with children of their own to mind, finding a space at home to give lessons etc

Others want reports of work covered for all classes to be submitted at the end of each week. Seems unnecessary as teachers would always maintain their own records.

There are also post-holder meetings being held and even staff meetings being requested, all at a time when many teachers are redrawing how they deliver content and meeting the change in circumstances.

We often hear of well-being these days while some managers continue to squeeze staff to the last. Generally for no gain at all.

Shn99

As a student who has classes via Zoom, they are a nightmare. At least 10 minutes trying to get everyone to join (issues from poor connection and waiting for people). Once your up and running we all have to mute our mics anyway because there does be desperate echo and all sorts of background noise. Comparing Zoom and voice over, id prefer voice over any day

jayo76

Thank you all for the replies. Im not comfortable with it from the privacy point of view either and do also have a young daughter in the house that with her mother at work I have to look after during the day.

I am going to recharge my batteries over Easter and continue afresh meeting students needs as I have been after that
Thanks very much also for the student perspective, much appreciated.

rainbowtrout

Bobtheman wrote: »

There will be a leaving cert for sure but if a student asked me when. I'd say I don't know. To say anything else is just dishonest. How can you say it's a genuine assumption when even China is still delaying it's state exams ??

There have been several comments about China's delay to their state exams. From what I've read in the media about their state exams, they take place over two days. It's 9 hours of exams in two days and it's standardised. They sit Chinese, Maths, a foreign language (typically English) and either Arts or Sciences as the fourth subject. It's a far different set up from the 30 odd subjects that we offer over 3 full weeks. They get one mark/grade as a combination of the lot at the end.

Even with their massive population, it's far easier to postpone a 2 day exam rather than 3 weeks of exams. Also they used to run it in July and moved it back to June in recent years because July is flood season in parts of the country. So moving it to July is not a big deal if they used to do it before. The Leaving Cert on the other hand is a different beast, and it will be a massive headache to move the whole thing, get it marked and results out, to allow the college year to start in the autumn, even allowing a delay for that too.

History Queen

We were given a list of " might be useful" apps and websites and zoom was on it but at no point were we directed to use it.

I wonder how management would react if you cited GDPR concerns and a refused consent to having your image be possibly screenshot/recorded by students? Saying you would absolutely use this technology if they could provide solutions to your concerns.

Shn99

To add to my above point re Zoom, I dont believe there is a way you can save the videos either so that students who miss them can catch up. Its really not suited for school teaching IMO. I much prefer when my teachers do a voice over explaining the work and then if we have any queries as individuals or as a whole they might make another short video. No messing around and just straight to the point

Im instantly reminded also of the teacher on RTE news who was doing a class on Instagram live for students(!!)

Shn99

History Queen wrote: »

We were given a list of " might be useful" apps and websites and zoom was on it but at no point were we directed to use it.

I wonder how management would react if you cited GDPR concerns and a refused consent to having your image be possibly screenshot/recorded by students? Saying you would absolutely use this technology if they could provide solutions to your concerns.

Show this to them, numerous privacy issues flagged about zoom lately.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tomsguide.com/amp/news/zoom-security-privacy-woes

RealJohn

jayo76 wrote: »

Quick question how many teachers here are doing video/zoom classes for students? There has been a growing pressure in emails from management in our school this week for teachers to move from Microsoft Groups/teams contact to beginning video classes.

I am not in favour of it I have to say and feel I am doing more than enough through my emails/ detailed voiced over powerpoints and shared resources to allow and facilitate my students continue their learning. I have started to feel however as more teachers in our school move to zoom that maybe Im not doing enough

They can ask me to do it, and I’ll say no.
They can tell me I have to, and I’ll remind them that I have a PWT contract, and subjects and a skill set that are in high demand, and that I’m doing fine with the students that are actually engaging, just as I am.
However, those who aren’t in the same position as I am should immediately say that you’re not comfortable with it because of privacy concerns (you don’t have to elaborate) and immediately contact the union, to see if they can pressure you into it.

Blanco100

What's the likelihood guys will leaving and junior cert exams go ahead?

RealJohn

Bobtheman wrote: »

There will be a leaving cert for sure but if a student asked me when. I'd say I don't know. To say anything else is just dishonest. How can you say it's a genuine assumption when even China is still delaying it's state exams ??

I’m sceptical as to how much truth we’re getting from China, but China also have a massive population and frankly, we don’t. It would be difficult, logistically, to run off the exams on schedule, or with a slight delay, and also adhere to a reasonable standard of social distancing, but like I said before, I think that the marking conferences might be the biggest stumbling block. Schools can extend out into local sports halls and community centres and issue students with strict conditions that they’re expected to adhere to, to make sure exams run. I don’t think it’s unrealistic at all, if the number of infections has dropped off by June. Difficult, logistically, but not unrealistic.

Edit to say that I’m referring to the leaving cert only. It might be necessary to delay the junior cert/cycle, if not cancel it entirely, to facilitate adequate social distancing for the leaving cert. Not saying definitely necessary, but much more likely than delaying or cancelling the leaving cert.

RealJohn

Blanco100 wrote: »

What's the likelihood guys will leaving and junior cert exams go ahead?

None of us knows, but personally, I think it’s very likely that the leaving cert will go ahead. The junior cert/cycle is less likely, but I wouldn’t go as far as to say unlikely.