Schools closed until undetermined date - was March 29th

Rosita

km79 wrote: »

I think we will reach a point at start of May where of things have not improved then the focus will have to have shifted to creative solutions to college entry as the exams will have to be cancelled
I am not sure why the govt think we can be so different than the rest of the countries affected who have cancelled their equivalent of the LC

It's important to remind ourselves too that the connection between the Leaving Cert and college entry is circumstantial. Third level colleges have come to rely on the LC to choose their intake but there is no reason why Third Level colleges cannot devise an alternative method though depending on how things pan out that might not be easy either. In fact the provost of TCD has already spoken of this possible alternative route.

Treppen

The ratcheting has begun https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/we-need-to-cancel-the-leaving-cert-and-give-students-predicted-grades-1.4219816?mode=amp

mirrorwall14

Treppen wrote: »

The ratcheting has begun https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/we-need-to-cancel-the-leaving-cert-and-give-students-predicted-grades-1.4219816?mode=amp

Very well written to be fair

km79

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

This is what’s driving me nuts. Clear the air. Just publish what the ‘best case’ and ‘worst case’ are and what the last dates they plan on deciding those are and end the speculation for students

Eg

Schools reopen by May 1st fully then both JC and LC take place in its entirety

Return to school by May 1st for LCs if full exams for them to take place (with creative social distancing using primary school buildings etc). Junior cert cancelled.

Return to school by May 14th for LCs to sit a reduced number of subjects over June (allowing subjects to be separated into HL/OL slots etc as well as creative social distancing)

No return to school of any kind possibly by May 14th exams fully cancelled and colleges to coordinate their own entry systems

Get that published so that all partners, parents, students, teachers, schools, SEC and Colleges can all be prepared

The longer this goes (and current restrictions now look likely to be extended until at least May) then the fewer the options become and that option D is the only option. I think we are close to that point now.
Option A and B will not happen.We will probably still be locked in our homes by May 1st
Option C is what I think the Dept are/were aiming towards but not planning on announcing until early May. Would not be possible for a lot of teachers (like myself) to both commute a long distance to school for exam years/LC and prepare classes & remote teach non exam years. So they would have to finish up.

In terms of my own subject Biology that would further compound the problems for 5th Years. As I have said before (in terms of my own subject) the LC course is finished. And in our school ,which would be perceived as quite academic, LC attendance falls dramatically week on week after Easter.
But 5th years are the ones who will be hardest hit. We do a lot of the course in 5th year. They may have more to complain about than many Leaving Certs.........

km79

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Very well written to be fair

Given that they want predicted grades it is safe to assume they are a high flyer!!!!

mirrorwall14

km79 wrote: »

Given that they want predicted grades it is safe to assume they are a high flyer!!!!

True enough 😂😂

Yeah I think we’re very close to past the point where running the standard LC is a massive issue tbh and I’m not sure why the Taoiseach came out with the ‘by hook or by crook’ statement tbh. I’m not finished the course with my group (I didn’t have them last year). Our attendance drops towards the end of May alright but I’d have had them all for the first couple of weeks anyways.

Treppen

km79 wrote: »

Given that they want predicted grades it is safe to assume they are a high flyer!!!!

I reckon most of the students who are calling for the predicted grades are the high fliers medicine seekers looking around their own classroom.

What they don't realise is the H1s are going to rocket (only one way predicted grades go when left to teachers, myself included). So their chances of getting the high points course will come down to a lottery or else another 'stressful' entrance exam from colleges.

Be careful what you wish for.

KrustyBurger

I read about an initiative in the US where buses with wifi drive around certain neighbourhoods at designated times so that students can download their assignments, work on them off line and upload them the next day. It's a start at making distance learning more equitable.

Treppen

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

True enough 😂😂

Yeah I think we’re very close to past the point where running the standard LC is a massive issue tbh and I’m not sure why the Taoiseach came out with the ‘by hook or by crook’ statement tbh. I’m not finished the course with my group (I didn’t have them last year). Our attendance drops towards the end of May alright but I’d have had them all for the first couple of weeks anyways.

Joe McHugh said he wanted at least 2 weeks regular teaching for LC before exams start. I think that's reasonable enough.

mirrorwall14

Treppen wrote: »

Joe McHugh said he wanted at least 2 weeks regular teaching for LC before exams start. I think that's reasonable enough.

That would just about work for me without adjustment to the paper. Just about.

Bobtheman

I'm sorry but predicted grades = grade inflation. We all know that. Are we really going to fail our own pupils?

Mardy Bum

Bobtheman wrote: »

I'm sorry but predicted grades = grade inflation. We all know that. Are we really going to fail our own pupils?

Irish Times and Indo appear to want teenage traffic to their websites so they are publishing this rubbish wholesale.

Bobtheman

You have to have an objective exam somewhere in the mix. The appeal exam has some merit but a lot of hurdles have to be passed before it's a runner. You could not allow a teacher to give a higher grade than a child achieved in a school exam. I'm not sure if the mocks can be used at all given the leaks

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

If you look at the distribution those 3 subjects always get given the highest % of H1s!

Physics and Chemistry do perhaps, but they are niche subjects to a certain extent. People don't choose them for the craic. They choose them because they want to do them. They are not catch all subjects that people do in large numbers, like Business or Geography, and that's not an insult to those subjects, in my experience students find them more accessible than physics and chemistry.

If you had a much larger population of students doing physics and chemistry you would see a more standard bell curve appear in the results. It's not the H1 students that will be affected, as they will get their grade anyway, it's the student who was aiming for the H5/H6, and watching their peers in music and languages sail by with a H3/H4 because of the boost from the practical mark.

acequion

I don't know why people are taking such issue with the "by hook or by crook" remark. I think what he meant is that the exam would go ahead but we all know there's a subtext of not necessarily in traditional format. And we also all know that inevitably it means not necessarily at all.

But by placing emphasis on the exams it keeps teachers and students focused imo and provides some sense of certainty in very uncertain times. And as someone else posted, it keeps the kids at their books rather than wanting to get out.

rainbowtrout

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

I was just thinking could they split up the levels and extend the exams.

So cancel junior cert.

Then run Leaving cert core subjects at least but running separate levels. Even just do English, Maths and the Languages if at all possible

So June 5th HL English P1 morning, OL/FL English P1 afternoon, June 6th English P2 HL morning, English P2 OL/FL afternoon etc etc

Adjust the numbers depending on how many take the different levels

English HL is the hardest at around 41k students. If they can manage that one the rest would be easier.

A lot of local arrangements around social distancing would be needed however. Hotel function rooms would be better than classrooms in many cases to allow more space. There’s 8 weeks to organise it so that it would work

Reduces pressure on exam students with a reduced timetable acknowledging that they aren’t in school and would provide a lot more clarity for everyone. And I’d actually believe it might take place as opposed to the current situation

Yep I agree, I suggested similar a while back. Exams could also be extended to include Saturdays and Sundays. It shouldn't adversely affect students as if they have an exam on a weekend, it means they were off during the week. They could also run three exams per day. No reason why you couldn't have an exam from 6-8:30 in the evening, or 5:30-8:00. You could fit in the JC exams too if this was done.

rainbowtrout

Treppen wrote: »

I reckon most of the students who are calling for the predicted grades are the high fliers medicine seekers looking around their own classroom.

What they don't realise is the H1s are going to rocket (only one way predicted grades go when left to teachers, myself included). So their chances of getting the high points course will come down to a lottery or else another 'stressful' entrance exam from colleges.

Be careful what you wish for.

And particularly so in grinds schools. Hate to single them out, but they are a business and grades are their business.

Rosita

acequion wrote: »

I don't know why people are taking such issue with the "by hook or by crook" remark. I think what he meant is that the exam would go ahead but we all know there's a subtext of not necessarily in traditional format. And we also all know that inevitably it means not necessarily at all.

But by placing emphasis on the exams it keeps teachers and students focused imo and provides some sense of certainty in very uncertain times. And as someone else posted, it keeps the kids at their books rather than wanting to get out.

But if we all know that his comment "means not necessarily at all" then how does it "provide some sense of certainty"?

The problem for Varadker's comment is that things have moved on since the days three weeks ago when they could deny there were any plans to close the schools until five minutes before they did. The stakes are higher with exams looming and a statement like that without specifics is unhelpful given the level of speculation already going on.

Issue is being taken with the "by hook or by crook" remark because people are now thinking that the time is coming for an actual decision rather than another fudge to buy time and stop us all canabilising each other.

Shn99

As a student i’d personally like to say fair play to all the teachers on here who have adapted to online learning to the best of their abilities. Not easy especially when some schools barely had any contingency plans when the schools closed. Hope you all have a good easter and take the time to re-charge your batteries.

Rosita

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Yep I agree, I suggested similar a while back. Exams could also be extended to include Saturdays and Sundays. It shouldn't adversely affect students as if they have an exam on a weekend, it means they were off during the week. They could also run three exams per day. No reason why you couldn't have an exam from 6-8:30 in the evening, or 5:30-8:00. You could fit in the JC exams too if this was done.

Not sure three exams a day would be needed nor indeed taking away the benefit of a weekend break after the heavy start. If the arrangements be made at all the timetable shouldn't be a problem.

combat14

UK experts saying lockdown in UK can be relaxed by end of May IF public following distancing rules

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/apr/04/uk-coronavirus-live-saturday-covid-19-latest-updates

TheDriver

Rosita wrote: »

given the level of speculation .

I look back to before I was in management and I'd be included in the speculating and trying to make decisions for the Principal.
The reality is that you don't make the decision until there is a need to and when all the facts are present. Currently the latter is not there. I'm sure the upper levels of the SEC and the Govt have all the scenarios played out in their heads but for now, it is nothing more than speculation until they have the facts and ultimately then we will have all the facts.

Plus it will all work out fine, no matter happens.

Rosita

Treppen wrote: »

Joe McHugh said he wanted at least 2 weeks regular teaching for LC before exams start. I think that's reasonable enough.

It should be possible to have LC only in a school under social distancing sometime next month maybe. But it all depends on how the rate of infection is doing. Not much point in bringing people in and then having to close the school down if there's a case. There are still many variables in play.

rainbowtrout

Rosita wrote: »

Not sure three exams a day would be needed nor indeed taking away the benefit of a weekend break after the heavy start. If the arrangements be made at all the timetable shouldn't be a problem.

I didn't suggest that LCs do three exams per day. I suggested that run the LC timetable much the same as normal and run JC exams as evening exams. None of them are more than 2.5 hours.

The LC could also be run like this in theory. Timetable could be structured so students wouldn't have more than two exams in a day as normal but it would allow them space out the exams.

Junior Cert exams could be run on the weekend or the option subjects in LC. Like Millem said, exam centres would be less crowded if you split HL and OL core subjects.

acequion

Rosita wrote: »

But if we all know that his comment "means not necessarily at all" then how does it "provide some sense of certainty"?

The problem for Varadker's comment is that things have moved on since the days three weeks ago when they could deny there were any plans to close the schools until five minutes before they did. The stakes are higher with exams looming and a statement like that without specifics is unhelpful given the level of speculation already going on.

Issue is being taken with the "by hook or by crook" remark because people are now thinking that the time is coming for an actual decision rather than another fudge to buy time and stop us all canabilising each other.

Maybe "certainty" was a wrong choice of word there as we are in times where there is no certainty. "Direction" "Guidelines" might be a better choice of word.

And I totally disagree about taking a definitive decision at this point. People are struggling enough to cope and adjust and I think that taking it incrementally and waiting to see is actually the best policy. In the meantime there is comfort in the routine of working towards something familiar like the state exams, yet everybody is aware that adjustments may be needed.

But to decide at this point just what adjustments and what level??? I don't think that's wise.

Rosita

TheDriver wrote: »

I look back to before I was in management and I'd be included in the speculating and trying to make decisions for the Principal.
The reality is that you don't make the decision until there is a need to and when all the facts are present. Currently the latter is not there. I'm sure the upper levels of the SEC and the Govt have all the scenarios played out in their heads but for now, it is nothing more than speculation until they have the facts and ultimately then we will have all the facts.

Plus it will all work out fine, no matter happens.

I know for a fact that people do not stop speculating because they become Principal or DP. Nothing can be planned without speculation.

However, the Taoiseach needs to be more circumspect in his comments at this stage as speculation in this situation is only heightening stress.

Rosita

acequion wrote: »

But to decide at this point just what adjustments and what level??? I don't think that's wise.

You are right - it's too early for such a decision. But Varadker does need to resist the temptation to react to every question he gets since the fateful day for a decision is getting nearer.

Bobtheman

Perhaps with an appeal exam in the autumn but on the surface it seems unworkable. Kids do surprise you in exams. They can go up or down a grade in my experience. Plus if left open to teachers it's open to abuse. We are only human after all..though I hate that song!

Treppen

Bobtheman wrote: »

Perhaps with an appeal exam in the autumn but on the surface it seems unworkable. Kids do surprise you in exams. They can go up or down a grade in my experience. Plus if left open to teachers it's open to abuse. We are only human after all..though I hate that song!

Fee paying schools and grind school teachers would be under crazy pressure to award the high marks.

zero_

Major events have been cancelled throughout the world. The Edinburgh festival in August, Glastonbury in June, Wimbledon, the A levels are going on predictions from past teachers. America is in a chronic state with this. It hasn't hit sub-Saharan Africa. Normal travel won't resume for long after the leaving/junior cert.

Of course that's not ideal. However, where are people getting the idea that you can 'space out the students in an exam hall'. If it's not safe for the general public to go to work, how can you hold exams?

I've been a superintendent for thirteen years, teaching for fifteen. You cannot jeopardise teachers/students health by doing something like this. Students always cough/sneeze in an exam hall - it's natural.

There is no way Varadkar is going to have the state exams in the traditional format. He is buying time. Understandably, he has to do this. Once he announces that there will be no exams, and a different form of transfer into college introduced, he is public enemy number one. Parents will howl down the phone to Joe Duffy about their kids having nothing to do and hanging round in public with their mates. He has tentatively made a nod towards other means of getting people into college by other avenues, while other newspapers are running stories of freshers week in the UK having their lectures online.

Some people (especially teachers) just need to get over it. There is a much bigger picture of people dying and the re-emergence of the disease. If there is a unprecedented initiative needed for getting people into college this year, that has to be done. 'They'll make us do it every year' - well, it shouldn't come to that. Yes, it could potentially happen. But what can you do? Make a massive issue about this, when teachers have surrendered to unions that are spineless in the past and advocate ludicrous measures such as lunchtime protests. They won't have your back. Many other professions are making large sacrifices. I've a nephew doing his finals, and this has changed to project work. The whole idea of teaching is to adapt to circumstances put in front of you.

In future, maybe taking up grievances about working conditions to the union - rather than a pandemic having an impact of the JC/LC - would be more beneficial.

I'd be more worried about going back to work too early and a second wave hitting teachers and students alike in October/November.