Schools closed until undetermined date - was March 29th

Treppen

zero_ wrote: »

Major events have been cancelled throughout the world. The Edinburgh festival in August, Glastonbury in June, Wimbledon, the A levels are going on predictions from past teachers. America is in a chronic state with this. It hasn't hit sub-Saharan Africa. Normal travel won't resume for long after the leaving/junior cert.

Of course that's not ideal. However, where are people getting the idea that you can 'space out the students in an exam hall'. If it's not safe for the general public to go to work, how can you hold exams?

I've been a superintendent for thirteen years, teaching for fifteen. You cannot jeopardise teachers/students health by doing something like this. Students always cough/sneeze in an exam hall - it's natural.

There is no way Varadkar is going to have the state exams in the traditional format. He is buying time. Understandably, he has to do this. Once he announces that there will be no exams, and a different form of transfer into college introduced, he is public enemy number one. Parents will howl down the phone to Joe Duffy about their kids having nothing to do and hanging round in public with their mates. He has tentatively made a nod towards other means of getting people into college by other avenues, while other newspapers are running stories of freshers week in the UK having their lectures online.

Some people (especially teachers) just need to get over it. There is a much bigger picture of people dying and the re-emergence of the disease. If there is a unprecedented initiative needed for getting people into college this year, that has to be done. 'They'll make us do it every year' - well, it shouldn't come to that. Yes, it could potentially happen. But what can you do? Make a massive issue about this, when teachers have surrendered to unions that are spineless in the past and advocate ludicrous measures such as lunchtime protests. They won't have your back. Many other professions are making large sacrifices. I've a nephew doing his finals, and this has changed to project work. The whole idea of teaching is to adapt to circumstances put in front of you.

In future, maybe taking up grievances about working conditions to the union - rather than a pandemic having an impact of the JC/LC - would be more beneficial.

I'd be more worried about going back to work too early and a second wave hitting teachers and students alike in October/November.

You haven't specifically offered a solution.

Are you proposing predicted grading?

TTLF

Not sure about the schools yours are working in, but my school is making sure even summer exams go ahead (1st-5th yr) even if we have to do it at home...

Kinda odd and weird but ok?

km79

TTLF wrote: »

Not sure about the schools yours are working in, but my school is making sure even summer exams go ahead (1st-5th yr) even if we have to do it at home...

Kinda odd and weird but ok?

Pointless
How can anyone stand over the results ?
In what format ? How will they be corrected ?
Will the school /dept provide the software for online corrections ?
Pointless
Assessment for the sake of assessment

Treppen

km79 wrote: »

Pointless
How can anyone stand over the results ?
In what format ? How will they be corrected ?
Will the school /dept provide the software for online corrections ?
Pointless
Assessment for the sake of assessment

These are just in-house exams, I've given exams before through ms quiz. Or else students write essay, photo and submit.

TTLF

km79 wrote: »

Pointless
How can anyone stand over the results ?
In what format ? How will they be corrected ?
Will the school /dept provide the software for online corrections ?
Pointless
Assessment for the sake of assessment

Not sure what they'll do exactly, but they have sent exams home to sick students who couldn't make it in. However I feel the "summer" exam period will be a lot longer than the usual 1 week it is. (there goes my 18th birthday to some summer exam :pac:)

km79

Treppen wrote: »

These are just in-house exams, I've given exams before through ms quiz. Or else students write essay, photo and submit.

I would have approx 150
150 downloads
On top of still uploading stuff for LC and JC
On 2mb(if I am lucky) mobile broadband.

And again what is the point if it can not be stood over as student's own work or without notes
It is just a glorifies assignment for the sake of it. It will not be looked at again . Unless of course predictive grading comes in

Given them an average grade based on engagement with ongoing classwork/assignments is just as good.
Will see what happens in our place anyway

In the context of what is going on it is not very important

Bobtheman

zero_ wrote: »

Major events have been cancelled throughout the world. The Edinburgh festival in August, Glastonbury in June, Wimbledon, the A levels are going on predictions from past teachers. America is in a chronic state with this. It hasn't hit sub-Saharan Africa. Normal travel won't resume for long after the leaving/junior cert.

Of course that's not ideal. However, where are people getting the idea that you can 'space out the students in an exam hall'. If it's not safe for the general public to go to work, how can you hold exams?

I've been a superintendent for thirteen years, teaching for fifteen. You cannot jeopardise teachers/students health by doing something like this. Students always cough/sneeze in an exam hall - it's natural.

There is no way Varadkar is going to have the state exams in the traditional format. He is buying time. Understandably, he has to do this. Once he announces that there will be no exams, and a different form of transfer into college introduced, he is public enemy number one. Parents will howl down the phone to Joe Duffy about their kids having nothing to do and hanging round in public with their mates. He has tentatively made a nod towards other means of getting people into college by other avenues, while other newspapers are running stories of freshers week in the UK having their lectures online.

Some people (especially teachers) just need to get over it. There is a much bigger picture of people dying and the re-emergence of the disease. If there is a unprecedented initiative needed for getting people into college this year, that has to be done. 'They'll make us do it every year' - well, it shouldn't come to that. Yes, it could potentially happen. But what can you do? Make a massive issue about this, when teachers have surrendered to unions that are spineless in the past and advocate ludicrous measures such as lunchtime protests. They won't have your back. Many other professions are making large sacrifices. I've a nephew doing his finals, and this has changed to project work. The whole idea of teaching is to adapt to circumstances put in front of you.

In future, maybe taking up grievances about working conditions to the union - rather than a pandemic having an impact of the JC/LC - would be more beneficial.

I'd be more worried about going back to work too early and a second wave hitting teachers and students alike in October/November.

Zero. The union leadership is not the real issue. The real issue is the spineless members who caved in after two days of a strike. Anything written here has no influence. We are in extraordinary times . Teachers are wary of the department taking out agendas that are just plain wrong and getting away with them long term. It's like what happened post 9/11 in the states.
Thus sure I'd agree to anything this year but predicted grades and all that bull**** are not advisable long term . Let's try to keep a balance .

Bobtheman

I have no issues with ad hoc arrangement this year but there is a real danger what's agreed now becomes the norm. In new Orleans there was always a political group who wanted to farm out public services to the private sector. Result poorly paid non union staff. Crap service. But they could not get it through until the hurricane happened. Then they got it through in the chaos. Sure it made sense at the time but once it got in it became a long term plan

Alex86Eire

This was posted today in case people haven't seen it - Guidance on continuity of schooling

https://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/guidance-on-continuity-of-schooling.pdf?fbclid=IwAR37D-X1726XBZQLZb_tnza5-4wgN7lfXr1v7l3bJtm71xC_sueV_RbSBI8

wirelessdude01

Alex86Eire wrote: »

This was posted today in case people haven't seen it - Guidance on continuity of schooling

https://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/guidance-on-continuity-of-schooling.pdf?fbclid=IwAR37D-X1726XBZQLZb_tnza5-4wgN7lfXr1v7l3bJtm71xC_sueV_RbSBI8

I'm looking forward to the school assembly being on the radio 🙄ðŸ˜

rosknight

If exams do not go ahead the only show in town has to be predicted results. Ok, how could that work. Well, we are all aware of stats - State Exams could do an analysis of grades by school and by subject for the past 5 years. Submit to school the percentage of grades they are allowed in each subject. Teachers use the mock results, results of in-house tests and their common sense to give their predicted results in line with SEC guidance. Senior management of school approve final list and submit back to SEC. SEC have their results in line with previous years so whats the issue.

Pupils have to have results. Some kids want to study abroad, some will not go to college in September, some will switch courses over their college career, hence all pupils need Leaving Results for 2020. Not good enough to say colleges start a different admission policy. That would only work for 2020.

We can come up with a load of solutions re: sitting exams but does anyone really think that pupils will be allowed back on school buses in June because at the end of the day this will have to happen if exams are taking place. If schools go back in May, buses will also have to be put back on. How many teachers will opt to supervise the exams if they were to go ahead?

We are now in very different times. Who would have thought a week ago that all private hospitals would turn public. That decision is much bigger than leaving cert results. Anything can be achieved and this will need the co'operation of all teachers which i'm sure will happen in the unprecedented times.

jayo76

So schools who have got no H1s in a subject in say the last 3 years wouldnt be able to give a student who they feel is going to get 7 H1s this year a H1 in say Physics because there has beeen no H1 in that subject in the school over the last 5 years? Really and you think thats fair??

jimmytwotimes 2013

Mock results are in no way reliable. A lot of students have the papers beforehand, not every student does them, I had two students who were caught cheating. Even for good students, they're not fully prepared and I've seen students jump 3/4 grades from mock to state exam.

No way they can be used.

rosknight

There is gonna be problems with every solution that people actually come up with. Can you not see that this is not a normal year and a solution has to be found.

To answer your question. SEC could give a 1-2% leeway on the average grades. That would solve the problem with no pupil getting a H1 in a school in the past. I guarantee that if the analysis was done, it would show very little difference in the results of schools year on year.

In relation to mocks - at the end of the day teachers have a fair idea where pupils are at. After teaching pupils for 2 years they are best placed to grade pupils.

Any pupils not happy with results can be given the option of sitting the exams in September.

You will find that there would be very few sitting it in September as vast majority would be happy.

At the end of the day the top 25% of pupils are always going to achieve no matter what system is going to be put in place. The biggest problem here is the parents and the kids themselves feeling a bit underwhelmed because they got the grades but did not sit the exam.

Let us think about the other 75% of kids for once. Majority of these are in limbo since school closed and are not structured enough to deal with this situation. Think of the 20-25% from disadvantaged backgrounds where school was a safe and warm place for them to go each day and are now at home, no laptop/internet/money for data topup etc and who have now lost interest in all this. Online learning not much addition to them.

The Department of Education felt the need to keep up with the schools meal program. Does that not tell its own story in relation to the poverty some pupils are experiencing and the struggles these families are going through. Now put all that together and imagine being a mother or father in this situation with a junior and leaving cert kid in the house.

Life's not fair and the thought of pupils having to sit a leaving cert after being out of school for 8-10 weeks before is also not fair for - again the top 25% will always achieve.

jayo76

rosknight wrote: »

There is gonna be problems with every solution that people actually come up with. Can you not see that this is not a normal year and a solution has to be found.

To answer your question. SEC could give a 1-2% leeway on the average grades. That would solve the problem with no pupil getting a H1 in a school in the past. I guarantee that if the analysis was done, it would show very little difference in the results of schools year on year.

In relation to mocks - at the end of the day teachers have a fair idea where pupils are at. After teaching pupils for 2 years they are best placed to grade pupils.

Any pupils not happy with results can be given the option of sitting the exams in September.

You will find that there would be very few sitting it in September as vast majority would be happy.

At the end of the day the top 25% of pupils are always going to achieve no matter what system is going to be put in place. The biggest problem here is the parents and the kids themselves feeling a bit underwhelmed because they got the grades but did not sit the exam.

Let us think about the other 75% of kids for once. Majority of these are in limbo since school closed and are not structured enough to deal with this situation. Think of the 20-25% from disadvantaged backgrounds where school was a safe and warm place for them to go each day and are now at home, no laptop/internet/money for data topup etc and who have now lost interest in all this. Online learning not much addition to them.

The Department of Education felt the need to keep up with the schools meal program. Does that not tell its own story in relation to the poverty some pupils are experiencing and the struggles these families are going through. Now put all that together and imagine being a mother or father in this situation with a junior and leaving cert kid in the house.

Life's not fair and the thought of pupils having to sit a leaving cert after being out of school for 8-10 weeks before is also not fair for - again the top 25% will always achieve.

Of course I recognise its not a normal year and that a solution has to be found. However your solution went against anything I see as fair as son as you said SEC inform schools of the number of grades they are allowed to give in each band.


You talk of protecting students who will be out of school 8 weeks, we all want that. Your proposal based on schools only being allowed to grant grades in line with previous exam results will further penalise students in disadvantaged schools and areas and just make sure that students in schools that have always done well will get the high grades again. It takes no account of or makes no allowance for individual students and their performances and would not be fair.

rosknight

You obviously are not digesting the proposal. In the case of the student you talk about, the teachers are best placed to grade that student so they dont lose out.

Also contrary to what you say, the proposal protects the disadvantaged pupils as they would be graded on the work they had done as opposed to sitting an exam, having not been able to keep up with school work and having been out of school and study practice for 10 weeks.

jayo76

rosknight wrote: »

You obviously are not digesting the proposal. In the case of the student you talk about, the teachers are best placed to grade that student so they dont lose out.

Also contrary to what you say, the proposal protects the disadvantaged pupils as they would be graded on the work they had done as opposed to sitting an exam, having not been able to keep up with school work and having been out of school and study practice for 10 weeks.

Teachers in schools of a subject that had not got high grades over the last 5 years under your proposal would not be able to reflect in high grades if they had a particularly good group this year. This does happen from time to time.

ka2

Not sure if it has been discussed but I’d wonder if having all students repeat their year might be an option? I don’t think there’s any option that won’t have some impact if the LC can’t go ahead.

rosknight

Ok, so like all proposals that are in draft, (which i just came up with by the way after reading this thread) included could be a case for what you mention that if such a situation arose the school could be give hard evidence to SEC i.e. mock results for that subject which would be considered.

By the way whats your proposal?

deiseindublin

I think the LC will happen alright, but maybe in Aug or Sept. Problem is everyone wanting a quick answer when its just not possible to give one. We just have to see how this curve plays out.

randylonghorn

ka2 wrote: »

Not sure if it has been discussed but I’d wonder if having all students repeat their year might be an option? I don’t think there’s any option that won’t have some impact if the LC can’t go ahead.

Apart from being very tough on students, what do you do with the incoming first years?

rainbowtrout

ka2 wrote: »

Not sure if it has been discussed but I’d wonder if having all students repeat their year might be an option? I don’t think there’s any option that won’t have some impact if the LC can’t go ahead.

Some schools wouldn't have the facilities/capacity for an extra year group. Colleges wouldn't have a fall in revenue if they had no first year. There would be a massive LC group next year, and colleges wouldn't have the facilities to accommodate year groups twice as big. The LC will happen one way or another.

deiseindublin

We're already short teachers, where would you suddenly find 17% extra?

ka2

randylonghorn wrote: »

Apart from being very tough on students, what do you do with the incoming first years?

Keep everyone back, even primary. It would be tough on everyone for sure but these are very strange times too. Nothing like this has happened in living memory so there’s no precedent. It probably wouldn’t happen but was just a thought I had.

rainbowtrout

ka2 wrote: »

Keep everyone back, even primary. It would be tough on everyone for sure but these are very strange times too. Nothing like this has happened in living memory so there’s no precedent. It probably wouldn’t happen but was just a thought I had.

Then as that ripples down the line, you have thousands of 5 year olds ready to start school who can't.....

randylonghorn

ka2 wrote: »

Keep everyone back, even primary. It would be tough on everyone for sure but these are very strange times too. Nothing like this has happened in living memory so there’s no precedent. It probably wouldn’t happen but was just a thought I had.

there would still be a numbers bulge somewhere in the system.

You're right, it's unprecedented, and the solution will be too.

I doubt that will be the chosen one tho unless we go into lockdown for months.

rosknight

System would not be able to cater for full repeat year as it would fall back on lack of childcare places in creches anf playschools. Would also lead to a double intake in primary schools at some stage.

ka2

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Then as that ripples down the line, you have thousands of 5 year olds ready to start school who can't.....

That’s true but there’s no option that’s painless. Even if the SEC plough ahead with the LC anyway they’ll need some serious safeguards to protect staff and students.

jayo76

rosknight wrote: »

Ok, so like all proposals that are in draft, (which i just came up with by the way after reading this thread) included could be a case for what you mention that if such a situation arose the school could be give hard evidence to SEC i.e. mock results for that subject which would be considered.

By the way whats your proposal?

Ah look yeah I get its a draft and a proposal and fair play to you for even giving it thought. It got my back up as I thought it unfair in the way I highlighted but I wasn't having a go at you or certainly didnt mean to.

I genuinely am struggling to see what will happen and a solution

Dickie10

what exactly would be wrong with using the mock results and letting students go and apply to CAO now? i really think its fast becoming the less of all evils. any students missing for the mocks could get a shot at repeating in July/August. I would imagine there few and far between some that were absent may not even bother repeating so you may not need much facilties. i think its a lot better than teachers coming up with grades.

TBH i think this could be the opening of pandoras box, i can see LC getting an overhall very soon, sit down exam will be only 50% , CA will be 50% or perhaps multiple choice questions used that can be fed into a computer program for correcting, i hear its getting very hard to get people to correct LC exams. I never did it and wouldnt from what I hear of it. People say it gives great insight into the exam for teachers, im sure it does but ill get my insights handier than that i think.