Schools closed until undetermined date - was March 29th

rainbowtrout

Students cheat in the mocks. Not sure how many times it has to be said on this thread. Mocks widely available online as students post them on social media. Poor marking standards on mocks. No standardisation as teachers often change questions as they haven't finished the course. Some schools don't do mocks. No recourse for students repeating/sitting LC who are not in a regular school and didn't sit mocks.

Lots of students fail mocks and go on to do well in the real thing.

ka2

Dickie10 wrote: »

what exactly would be wrong with using the mock results and letting students go and apply to CAO now? i really think its fast becoming the less of all evils. any students missing for the mocks could get a shot at repeating in July/August. I would imagine there few and far between some that were absent may not even bother repeating so you may not need much facilties. i think its a lot better than teachers coming up with grades.

TBH i think this could be the opening of pandoras box, i can see LC getting an overhall very soon, sit down exam will be only 50% , CA will be 50% or perhaps multiple choice questions used that can be fed into a computer program for correcting, i hear its getting very hard to get people to correct LC exams. I never did it and wouldnt from what I hear of it. People say it gives great insight into the exam for teachers, im sure it does but ill get my insights handier than that i think.

I could see a situation where employers would treat this as a “mickey mouse” LC and not accept it.

jrmb

ka2 wrote: »

I could see a situation where employers would treat this as a “mickey mouse” LC and not accept it.

No employer has ever asked for my LC

Smegging hell

Dickie10 wrote: »

what exactly would be wrong with using the mock results and letting students go and apply to CAO now?

Because the mocks are farmed out to private companies that regularly make errors in marking, and aren't held uniformly across the country like a proper state examination, leaving them wide open to cheating and inequities. There are so many reasons why it's an awful idea. It won't happen.

Shn99

Does anyone think the LC could just go ahead as normal or is that off the table altogether?

BeepBeep67

LC 2020 is a write-off, the Uni's should hold assessment days and interviews for next year placements.

rosknight

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

LC 2020 is a write-off, the Uni's should hold assessment days and interviews for next year placements.

That will not happen.
Pupils need 2020 results.
What if they want to go to college in 2021. Where are the points?

Dickie10

dont think employers pay much heed to LC results.

Dickie10

Anyway not sure what they will do. but longterm things need to change in the LC, how do they work out who gets to college in USA? do they have final exams?

BeepBeep67

rosknight wrote: »

That will not happen.
Pupils need 2020 results.
What if they want to go to college in 2021. Where are the points?

Have their interview and assessment this year and then defer if accepted.

rosknight

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Have their interview and assessment this year and then defer if accepted.

And if they leave the course and want to re apply in 2021 or 2022???

jrmb

I think the whole CAO system needs to be reformed so that students have to make a more detailed personal application for each of their preferred courses. At present, it's possible to secure a place on a course without knowing what it involves, while a motivated student who truly wants the place can miss out by a few points.

BeepBeep67

rosknight wrote: »

And if they leave the course and want to re apply in 2021 or 2022???

They've passed an assessment, they've proven to be at a certain level, same as having the appropriate number of points.
Compelling events force innovation, the current points system may need an overhaul.

Treppen

jrmb wrote: »

I think the whole CAO system needs to be reformed so that students have to make a more detailed personal application for each of their preferred courses. At present, it's possible to secure a place on a course without knowing what it involves, while a motivated student who truly wants the place can miss out by a few points.

Detailed = Coaching/grinds etc

Personal= Just look at America admissions scandal with the Hollywood crowd , impersonal is the way to go.

Mardy Bum

jayo76 wrote: »

So schools who have got no H1s in a subject in say the last 3 years wouldnt be able to give a student who they feel is going to get 7 H1s this year a H1 in say Physics because there has beeen no H1 in that subject in the school over the last 5 years? Really and you think thats fair??

That is what is being done in England.

Treppen

As regards predicted grades. In our school we were told to dampen expectations as many previously graduated students thought they were the bees knees and refused to drop levels/stop extra subjects etc. In the end a lot didn't do as well as they thought. So this year's mocks were marked particularly hard with many teachers supplementing papers with harder questions!
Do we base our predicted LC grades on that, i.e. bump everyone up?

jrmb

Treppen wrote: »

Detailed = Coaching/grinds etc

It wouldn't have to be particularly detailed, just more thorough than "rank in order of preference" from a catalogue. The students would have to show that they've considered the composition and demands of the course, and have somewhat realistic expectations.

Treppen wrote: »

Personal= Just look at America admissions scandal with the Hollywood crowd , impersonal is the way to go.

Not necessarily if it's conducted as an informal interview. It's not unreasonable to ask why the applicant wants to join a particular course and why they've selected a particular college. This is already standard for PLCs, performing arts, medicine and many other programmes.

Corkgirl20

Can they not hold the Leaving Cert later in the year ( whenever things are good) let’s say for example August.

Scrap the Junior Cert , so there would be more correctors for the Leaving Cert Papers and more exam supervisors available if social distancing is needed. Schools have a hall and classrooms they can make use of and primary schools will be closed if they need further space.

I'm sure colleges could begin a month later and start in October or after the Halloween break giving plenty of time for corrections to be done.

killbillvol2

Corkgirl20 wrote: »

Can they not hold the Leaving Cert later in the year ( whenever things are good) let’s say for example August.

Scrap the Junior Cert , so there would be more correctors for the Leaving Cert Papers and more exam supervisors available if social distancing is needed. Schools have a hall and classrooms they can make use of and primary schools will be closed if they need further space.

I'm sure colleges could begin a month later and start in October or after the Halloween break giving plenty of time for corrections to be done.

I think this will be the most likely scenario. This academic year will spill into next year slightly and next year will be somewhat condensed/start later. If some heads need to be banged together to get it done then so be it.

byronbay2

ka2 wrote: »

Keep everyone back, even primary. It would be tough on everyone for sure but these are very strange times too. Nothing like this has happened in living memory so there’s no precedent. It probably wouldn’t happen but was just a thought I had.

Absolute last resort! Anything is better than this option.

Dickie10 wrote: »

what exactly would be wrong with using the mock results and letting students go and apply to CAO now? i really think its fast becoming the less of all evils.

Seems to be a big push for this now. Absolutely terrible idea, imo! All the intelligent pupils planning to peak in June would be fu*ked!

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

LC 2020 is a write-off, the Uni's should hold assessment days and interviews for next year placements.

No reason to think this! I am convinced that the LC can go ahead this summer. A lot of people seem to be panicking or pushing their own agenda.

Corkgirl20 wrote: »

Can they not hold the Leaving Cert later in the year ( whenever things are good) let’s say for example August.

I'm sure colleges could begin a month later and start in October or after the Halloween break giving plenty of time for corrections to be done.

Finally, the voice of reason!! Of course the LC can be delayed. At least up until the end of August, relatively easily, as far as I can see. Let the best students get the big points (without the teachers getting involved) as it has always been. The LC is such a pure and incorruptible event, that's why all the rich parents hate it so much!

Random sample

Shn99 wrote: »

Does anyone think the LC could just go ahead as normal or is that off the table altogether?

I obviously don’t know what the hse are predicting for the virus, but I could see us all back in school 18 May, two weeks of school until we finish up, no early finish for exam classes, and continue with the LC and JC as planned.

For the people proposing August for LC, do you envisage schools being back in July to prepare these students?

Treppen

jrmb wrote: »

It wouldn't have to be particularly detailed, just more thorough than "rank in order of preference" from a catalogue. The students would have to show that they've considered the composition and demands of the course, and have somewhat realistic expectations.



Not necessarily if it's conducted as an informal interview. It's not unreasonable to ask why the applicant wants to join a particular course and why they've selected a particular college. This is already standard for PLCs, performing arts, medicine and many other programmes.

Just Google 'HPAT preparation' and see how balanced and fair it is (if you've the money)

deiseindublin

All this supposed push to use mock results is beginning to annoy me, it's absolute bull**** and just can't happen.

The SEC is in charge of administering exams, not some random company set up to make a profit. The exams have none of the checks and balances of the regular LC and JC. I've been an SEC examiner for 25 years and believe me, it won't happen.

I've also corrected for the 2 main mocks providers and the papers are churned out, with no training, and results are returned often without attempt marks, and no QA checks. Most of us are happy enough with that because they are the mocks and that's what we expect. What then about the schools that choose to mark their own, harshly in all likelihood, to give a kick up the behind to students in the hope they settle down to work?

I really wish teachers would stop giving this any air time. It'd be an absolute farce and you'd be as well off agreeing to throw the papers down the stairs and seeing what everybody gets.

The LC will happen, maybe somewhat modified exams, and later towards Autumn, but it will be something that the SEC will have oversight of, and be happy to stand over in the future.

km79

For those proposing exams in aug/sept......when will next school year start ? Cos it can not start for a month after the exams finish
Take it from someone who has corrected
It is a FULL TIME JOB. Morning noon and night .
So school can’t start until they are corrected
Under this proposal 1/2/5th years might not return to school until next october/November
And for that reason and many it’s probably a non runner

That’s me out anyway need to take my holidays and switch off
Very good discussion on here to be fair
And I think we can all see what a difficult decisions they are going to have to make with no easy solution
Ideal scenario for me is
LC back last two weeks in May and LC proceeds as normal . JC cancelled . All other years finish up two weeks early . This way L Certs get teachers complete time and extra block classes could be fun perhaps .
Sadly I do not see the situation improving enough by then . So I do not think it will be possible
Have a good easter everyone

Guirimasguiri

Has anyone who has applied to be a written examiner heard back from the SEC? That could give an indication of whether they really are planning on going ahead with the state exams.

Purefrank128

Guirimasguiri wrote: »

Has anyone who has applied to be a written examiner heard back from the SEC? That could give an indication of whether they really are planning on going ahead with the state exams.

Yes, many have been appointed as examiners, at both JC and LC, including many new applicants.

They really are hoping to go ahead with state exams, which means that they really have to plan for them.

deiseindublin

How can they reply when they dont know themselves what's happening? I've had conferences cancelled for March and April dates, but letter just said cancelled.

It'd be unreasonable at this stage to expect contact from them.

acequion

km79 wrote: »

For those proposing exams in aug/sept......when will next school year start ? Cos it can not start for a month after the exams finish
Take it from someone who has corrected
It is a FULL TIME JOB. Morning noon and night .
So school can’t start until they are corrected
Under this proposal 1/2/5th years might not return to school until next october/November
And for that reason and many it’s probably a non runner

That’s me out anyway need to take my holidays and switch off
Very good discussion on here to be fair
And I think we can all see what a difficult decisions they are going to have to make with no easy solution
Ideal scenario for me is
LC back last two weeks in May and LC proceeds as normal . JC cancelled . All other years finish up two weeks early . This way L Certs get teachers complete time and extra block classes could be fun perhaps .
Sadly I do not see the situation improving enough by then . So I do not think it will be possible
Have a good easter everyone

That's far from ideal imo Don't forget several LC groups will have already finished their courses, are into revision /exam papers and are engaging well with online classes. Ditto with some 3rd year groups. Whereas it's a major disaster for some 5th years with their teachers trying to teach sections of the course online and these kids in 6th year next year, with those who didn't /couldn't engage very far behind. I,personally wouldn't need heaps of blocked time with my 6th or 3rd but I would with my 5th.

The whole thing is a mess, logistically, and whatever the decision, there will be many disgruntled. I really don't envy the decision makers.

Postgrad10

Guirimasguiri wrote: »

Has anyone who has applied to be a written examiner heard back from the SEC? That could give an indication of whether they really are planning on going ahead with the state exams.

I applied for a different subject this year but no word back if I got it.

Probably no point appointing me when they don’t know what’s happening themselves.

Corkgirl20

Random sample wrote: »

I obviously don’t know what the hse are predicting for the virus, but I could see us all back in school 18 May, two weeks of school until we finish up, no early finish for exam classes, and continue with the LC and JC as planned.

For the people proposing August for LC, do you envisage schools being back in July to prepare these students?

I don’t think schools will be back that early in May, especially because children can show little to know symptoms the risk of spread it too high and there could be another outbreak.

Why would the students need to go back in July to prepare? If their teachers are supporting them online they shouldn’t need an extra month of prep in a school. I think just bring them in for the leaving cert is the least risky way.