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Schools closed until undetermined date - was March 29th
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deiseindublin wrote: »I'm not sure if you've been following other media, but you do know that there is a global pandemic, right?
That’s precisely my point
There is no point cancelling them in June and then rearranging for July/Aug when we will still be in the middle of a global pandemic
They backed themselves into a corner with some big statements0 -
Among the problems with this idea is the fact that not all questions carry equal marks, with the idiotic structure of the maths paper as it is currently (and the more marks going for a question, the lower the proportion of the question dedicated to maths, on average). It would be difficult to give students choices without completely restructuring the papers.skippy1977 wrote: »One thing I would be in huge favour of is a massive adjustment of the exam layout. Subjects like Maths have no choice whatsoever and for this year that needs to change.
Students, given all that they have gone through and are going through, should be given an opportunity to show off what they have learned, and not be penalised for material not covered whilst in school. The exams can be the same duration but with twice the options of question. I understand this would come with its own problems (exams probably have been written etc) but at least it would be a case of students having some choice and it might give them a renewed focus if the exams were to be postponed. ...
The fact that students have to answer all questions is one of the few good things about the current maths course. I’m not sure what the logic of giving students choice is, in the normal course of events, and I mean that with reference to all subjects. Students are either supposed to know something or they’re not. If it’s on the course, and on the exam, they should have to answer the question. Is there something I’m missing, in thinking that?
That’s a rant for another day though.
I do agree that this year, unusual circumstances should mean that students must be given every opportunity to show how much they do know, and not penalised for how much they don’t, but I don’t get the logic of essentially telling students “this is on the course, and there’ll be a question about it on the exam, but you don’t actually have to learn it, or do the question”, like was the case on the old maths course.0 -
There’s also no point in cancelling them in April, when it’s possible that they’ll be able to go ahead as normal in June, or be delayed slightly, to go ahead in July.That’s precisely my point
There is no point cancelling them in June and then rearranging for July/Aug when we will still be in the middle of a global pandemic
They backed themselves into a corner with some big statements
Unless it’s completely clear that they can’t be held in June, which it isn’t, at this stage, then talk of cancelling them should be shelved. It serves nobody, and gives the students an excuse to down tools.
It’s like how the question “do we have a day off next week?” quickly becomes “we have a day off next week” in the student rumour mill, except that unlike a day off, if the students start to believe their exams aren’t happening, their performance in those exams is likely to be negatively affected, if it turns out it was just a rumour.0 -
There’s also no point in cancelling them in April, when it’s possible that they’ll be able to go ahead as normal in June, or be delayed slightly, to go ahead in July.
Unless it’s completely clear that they can’t be held in June, which it isn’t, at this stage, then talk of cancelling them should be shelved. It serves nobody, and gives the students an excuse to down tools.
It’s like how the question “do we have a day off next week?” quickly becomes “we have a day off next week” in the student rumour mill, except that unlike a day off, if the students start to believe their exams aren’t happening, their performance in those exams is likely to be negatively affected, if it turns out it was just a rumour.
https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2020/0410/1129733-covid19-coronavirus-restrictions/
It’s pretty clear they can’t be held in June
https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/covid-19-modelling-group-expects-social-distancing-measures-for-a-long-time-to-flatten-curve-993326.html0 -
Jesus the thought of predicted grades. I got around 200 points in my mocks and failed English. I got around 450 points in the real thing. I wonder how they would have predicted my grades before I put the head down.0
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Among the problems with this idea is the fact that not all questions carry equal marks, with the idiotic structure of the maths paper as it is currently (and the more marks going for a question, the lower the proportion of the question dedicated to maths, on average). It would be difficult to give students choices without completely restructuring the papers.
The fact that students have to answer all questions is one of the few good things about the current maths course. I’m not sure what the logic of giving students choice is, in the normal course of events, and I mean that with reference to all subjects. Students are either supposed to know something or they’re not. If it’s on the course, and on the exam, they should have to answer the question. Is there something I’m missing, in thinking that?
That’s a rant for another day though.
I do agree that this year, unusual circumstances should mean that students must be given every opportunity to show how much they do know, and not penalised for how much they don’t, but I don’t get the logic of essentially telling students “this is on the course, and there’ll be a question about it on the exam, but you don’t actually have to learn it, or do the question”, like was the case on the old maths course.
I think they should have kept the old structure with equally weighted marks but lost the ‘Q1 is this topic’ lark which meant you could actually leave stuff out. In a similar way to the Irish Music Essays. You’ll have a choice but if you chose to leave something out you may be left with a nastier phrasing of question to answer
No harm to allow students play to their strengths a little on the day but definitely not a fan of how you could literally leave specific sections out in the past0 -
skippy1977 wrote: »It may have been mentioned before but here are a couple of reasons why Mocks as a fair assessment of a final grade for a Leaving Cert student, are a complete non runner and I am amazed any teacher would bring them into the conversation.
Using my own example; I teach in a DEIS school and have less than 10 LC students. Two of them are school refusal but will sit their LC exam. They did not take all of their mock exams and neither of them have been present for class tests. I couldn't even begin to tell you the academic ability of one of the two students.
Saying that the rest of our sixth year students are convinced the state exams are going to be cancelled and so a lot of them refuse to engage with online content as they think it's pointless.
This would usually be the time of year where I get the most work out of my few students who have taken the last year and a half as an extension of TY. If state exams do go ahead without seeing my students for classes, they're going to be in serious trouble. If the exams are postponed and students are expected in school during June, I could see a lot of my students not engaging either.
It'll be interesting to see what decisions are made.0 -
There are primary teachers arguing about being asked to invigilate state exams on another site I follow. (To spread students out over a greater number of test centres and maintain social distancing)
Someone asked which circular/ article was this mentioned in and was told that it hasn't and the discussion is purely hypothetical.
So they are actually over there fighting about a makey-uppy idea. Bloody ridiculous!
Arguing or debating? Someone came up with the idea while talking with a colleague and presented it on a thread. Others have given their point of view and pointed out problems/ other considerations. Other posters have stated they would be in favour of the idea. All but one poster was able to give their opinion in a polite and reasonable way. There was no fight, just debate.0 -
skippy1977 wrote: »It may have been mentioned before but here are a couple of reasons why Mocks as a fair assessment of a final grade for a Leaving Cert student, are a complete non runner and I am amazed any teacher would bring them into the conversation. I'm pretty sure most mentioning them are not aware of how loosely they can be used from school to school in prepping students. In our school, like I would say many others, they are used to practice timing, get students focused etc...wouldn't be hugely used as a basis to test everything students remember for the last 1.5 years.
Different teachers use them for different things. Kids in the same school could have taken the same Maths mock under two different teachers. One teacher looking to give his class a real test with no revision, no hints, etc whilst another teacher in the same subject is looking to give them confidence, knows he has a lot still to cover and so preps them for 2 weeks specifically for that exam, dropping huge hints, correcting it more easily (if not sent away...if they were sent away who exactly corrected them?). Where is the appeal process in this scenario...the mocks are in the hands of the students now, some lost I'm sure.
Standards of corrections vary hugely as does the standard of the exam set (to me one of the companies Mock is much much more difficult than the others (in Maths)).
Some schools run the mocks along a similar timetable to the actual Leaving Cert, over a 3 week period with half days and lots of breaks to study. Others cram them into a week, leaving students exhausted for exams they take in the evenings and toward the end of the mocks.
The mocks were widely available to any student who sought them out online leading up to the exams, as they have been for the last number of years. Many students sat a mock knowing every question on the exam. MOST absolutely did not but are we to reward the percentage who had the exam.
Some grinds teachers run through the topics that are coming up in the mocks with their students, some go as far as to run through exact questions. Some do it purposely, some lean their lessons that way without spelling it out exactly.
Many teachers take questions out of the mocks that they have not covered, replacing them with alternate questions. Some students thus have been tested on the whole course whilst others have been tested on a far lower percentage.
Predicted grades also have huge problems with many some of the issues above also in play. I have students who have performed poorly in class tests for a year and a half but are busting themselves since the break as they thought they could see the finish line. Every year I look at LC results in my school and am amazed at how some, that we thought would perform poorly, pull it out of the bag at the last minute. I wouldn't like to be under predicting their grade. Alot of people say it is the best option. To me it is the WORST option by far as it is the ONE option that takes the result out of the hands of the students and into the hands of someone else.
I do think clarity is needed from the government but its a moving goalpost and very hard for them to nail down dates with any certainty. Unfortunately then I think they probably need to err on the side of caution...September exams with Croke Park hours used to allow teachers to correct them (now I'm only running through possibles here...), colleges condense the next calendar year.
Now look I am lot less committed to September exams than my ideas against using Mocks, predicted grades etc ...in truth if we could run them with huge help from teachers (provided safe) in June, I'd probably prefer that...
One thing I would be in huge favour of is a massive adjustment of the exam layout. Subjects like Maths have no choice whatsoever and for this year that needs to change.
Students, given all that they have gone through and are going through, should be given an opportunity to show off what they have learned, and not be penalised for material not covered whilst in school. The exams can be the same duration but with twice the options of question. I understand this would come with its own problems (exams probably have been written etc) but at least it would be a case of students having some choice and it might give them a renewed focus if the exams were to be postponed. They could balance the study with down time, over whatever type of a summer we are going to have, and it might alleviate some of the pressure of having to cover everything, without the help of a teacher.
Anyway look there is no method that is going to be perfect but whatever is decided it should be in the students hands...
I wouldn’t use the mocks. One other problem with the mocks is that there are different companies. I know in Maths the DEB paper is far more challenging than Examcraft. I’d use a combination of my class tests, 5th year and my own cop on. There will be guidelines released if it comes to it that will stop people giving everyone H1s. For example, % of H1s in the school over a 5 year avg, the SEC could check against their JC results.
I know none of that is a good idea in normal times. In fact, it’s dreadful. But I have t heard of a better way yet that allows things to go back to normal in September. Unless they just let everyone into course number 1 and push the issue out to but time. Let everyone into Commerce in UCD for the craic, but then places becomes an issue.
The more I think about it the more I think the LC should happen no matter what and when and that’s the only way to deal with it.0 -
There’s also no point in cancelling them in April, when it’s possible that they’ll be able to go ahead as normal in June, or be delayed slightly, to go ahead in July.
Unless it’s completely clear that they can’t be held in June, which it isn’t, at this stage, then talk of cancelling them should be shelved. It serves nobody, and gives the students an excuse to down tools.
It’s like how the question “do we have a day off next week?” quickly becomes “we have a day off next week” in the student rumour mill, except that unlike a day off, if the students start to believe their exams aren’t happening, their performance in those exams is likely to be negatively affected, if it turns out it was just a rumour.
I have a certain sympathy for your view about the early cancelling of the exams. I still hold to be the belief (getting much shakier by the day it has to be said) that there would be a possibility of holding the LC in June under strictly observed social distancing conditions.
But the figure of a record 500 new infections yesterday after almost a couple of weeks of social distancing, and the realisation that experts believe that we are not even catching half of the people who are actually/will be infected makes me think my view is possibly farcical.
That said, if they announce a deferral of exams it will not ease anxiety a whole lot. The question then arises as to when they'll be. All common sense would suggest we'd be lucky to be able to have them in August/September. There are worse things. Schools and universities could open in October/after mid-term. People would adjust because they'd have to do so. But unfortunately the nature of the current situation is that it might be difficult to make any such decisions at this remove. Without a vaccine even the next school year itself could be up in the air for all we know.
However, I would increasingly have more limited sympathy for students who might get less motivated by the whole thing. Bottom line is that these people are 18 years old. They are old enough to do just about anything. This time next year they'll be ploughing their own furrow like it or not and will not be spoon-fed anymore. They will just have to find a way or live with the consequences. None of this is ideal for anyone.
I think the government needs to engage with the universities to look at some kind of alternative system of entry because that is now a real possibility.
There has been talk of an announcement about exams today and I'd hope that a lot of what I have just written will be overtaken by that. Time will tell.0 -
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If we have the LC the last two weeks of August does that mean we teach the first two weeks and then we finish at the start of May next year? Or do we finish at the end of June?
Next year is a funny one with the June Bank holiday.....we should finish on June 4th 2021.0 -
Agree, LC has to happen, only question should be when that will be possible.0
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I agree with most of what you said, but I have to question this bit. Did we have 500 new infections yesterday, or did we get 500 positive tests back yesterday, from people who were infected two weeks ago and only started showing symptoms last week? Are they not behind on tests? Were they not predicting a peak around now anyway?But the figure of a record 500 new infections yesterday after almost a couple of weeks of social distancing, and the realisation that experts believe that we are not even catching half of the people who are actually/will be infected makes me think my view is possibly farcical.
If, best case scenario, yesterday was the peak of diagnosed infections, it could be safe to have the exams, as normal, by the time June rolls around. Even outside of that best case scenario, June exams could still go ahead.
I wouldn’t base my speculation on the figures we’re getting at the moment. If the number of actual infections really is still increasing, then the leaving cert is the least of our worries. If we’re just getting more positive tests back because the testing capacity, and the prioritisation of those most likely to actually be infected is improving, that’s probably a good sign, not a bad one, even though it will mean that the numbers seem higher.0 -
If we have the LC the last two weeks of August does that mean we teach the first two weeks and then we finish at the start of May next year? Or do we finish at the end of June?
Next year is a funny one with the June Bank holiday.....we should finish on June 4th 2021.
Whatever happens we'll be expected to -yet again- throw on the green Jersey, lie back and think of Ireland and do what were told.0 -
It depends on where you get your test....the maternity hospitals test you straight away on site and can have your results back in 4 hours. Beaumont have a similar system.
Anyone I know who had to go to a regular test centre have been waiting days for a test and days for results.0 -
I agree with most of what you said, but I have to question this bit. Did we have 500 new infections yesterday, or did we get 500 positive tests back yesterday, from people who were infected two weeks ago and only started showing symptoms last week? Are they not behind on tests? Were they not predicting a peak around now anyway?
If, best case scenario, yesterday was the peak of diagnosed infections, it could be safe to have the exams, as normal, by the time June rolls around. Even outside of that best case scenario, June exams could still go ahead.
I wouldn’t base my speculation on the figures we’re getting at the moment. If the number of actual infections really is still increasing, then the leaving cert is the least of our worries. If we’re just getting more positive tests back because the testing capacity, and the prioritisation of those most likely to actually be infected is improving, that’s probably a good sign, not a bad one, even though it will mean that the numbers seem higher.
Guy on Prime time last night put it best when he said that it's to early to see a trend.... Too many variables with testing.0 -
I think it’d be extremely naïve of us to think that if we teach for two weeks before the exams start (which would be pointless, in my opinion), that it will count towards next year’s teaching hours, regardless of when those two weeks are.If we have the LC the last two weeks of August does that mean we teach the first two weeks and then we finish at the start of May next year? Or do we finish at the end of June?
Next year is a funny one with the June Bank holiday.....we should finish on June 4th 2021.
But again, the scenario where the exams take place in August and we start the next school year as normal doesn’t work, because there’d be nobody to mark the exams. When the exams happen, there will need to be two weeks without any classes after that at absolute minimum, and even then, that would be a rush job, representing the fastest turnaround in marking ever (to the best of my knowledge), and the examiners would probably need a week off anyway, after that.
If the exams were to take place at the end of August, I would think the last week in September would be the earliest practical start date for classes, and that would almost certainly mean cutting down midterms, Christmas and Easter holidays, and teaching at least an extra week in June.0 -
deiseindublin wrote: »Agree, LC has to happen, only question should be when that will be possible.
And what happens if it’s not possible until very late in the year ?
Why does it have to happen ?
Why can’t we come up with alternative college entry system for one year like a lot of the developed countries affected ?
I made this point before but I’ll make it again - most foreign students looking for college entry in Ireland next year will NOT have their LC equivalent done. Will our colleges turn them away OR come up an alternative /accept their alternative ?
So if we insist on the LC ‘by hook or by crook’ will we be placing our own students at a disadvantage?
I was firmly in the it will/has to happen in June camp up until a week or 2 ago
Things have become a lot clearer since then
500 new cases yday now that proper testing is giving us the real figures
It’s time to get real
We will be lucky to have the full student cohort back for a September start
Lumping 2 more extra years in on top of that?
Also something has been bugging me for the last few days but I kept scthum Cos “teachers are always complaining “
“Student voice “ is being well heard on this due to some Union we had never heard off
Tough to stay motivated , mental health , unfair to have them studying over the holidays , they must have input to new exam system
What about us ?
It will be hard for us to keep motivated to spend hours and hours uploading class content every day when we return knowing full well a lot of students won’t bother engaging
Mental health - yes teacher wellbeing is a thing even though it is never talked about .
Unfair to have them studying over the summer holidays towards July/August exams - absolutely. Teachers being asked to work their annual leave unlike any other profession . No problem.
Input into new exam system - sure what wood teachers know
Where the bloody help are the unions ?
The “student union” threw out a completely unscientific survey and it’s all over the media and acknowledged by govt
Our unions will just Come out after crying that they were not asked !
You would HOPE they are party too any talks ......but could they not have garnered teachers opinion too?
Rant over
I am bowing back out again for the weekend ahead of today’s announcement which will most likely be “keep studying , working on contingencies, “0 -
I think it’d be extremely naïve of us to think that if we teach for two weeks before the exams start (which would be pointless, in my opinion), that it will count towards next year’s teaching hours, regardless of when those two weeks are.
I thought they wanted us to teach the students two weeks before the exams?0 -
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I think it’d be extremely naïve of us to think that if we teach for two weeks before the exams start (which would be pointless, in my opinion), that it will count towards next year’s teaching hours, regardless of when those two weeks are.
But again, the scenario where the exams take place in August and we start the next school year as normal doesn’t work, because there’d be nobody to mark the exams. When the exams happen, there will need to be two weeks without any classes after that at absolute minimum, and even then, that would be a rush job, representing the fastest turnaround in marking ever (to the best of my knowledge), and the examiners would probably need a week off anyway, after that.
If the exams were to take place at the end of August, I would think the last week in September would be the earliest practical start date for classes, and that would almost certainly mean cutting down midterms, Christmas and Easter holidays, and teaching at least an extra week in June.
I agree with most of what you say regarding the marking of the exams. But I don’t think we should stand for cutting down midterms, Christmas and Easter. Imagine how exhausted we would be by this time next year. Talk about burn out.0 -
I’m not sure what your question is.
Sorry I misread your post....so basically if we go back earlier to teach it is not counted in the 167 days for the school year 20/21.
If we extend the school year by working longer in a June 2021 (to make up for school closure to mark exams) the 2021 exams are pushed back....they are due to start on the 8th June 2021.0 -
I’ve made this point before and I’ll make it again. School is not a college entry system. The leaving cert is not a college entrance exam. I don’t give a flying flip how the colleges deal with their entry system for next year. That’s got nothing to do with my job, as a teacher of leaving cert students.And what happens if it’s not possible until very late in the year ?
Why does it have to happen ?
Why can’t we come up with alternative college entry system for one year like a lot of the developed countries affected ?
I made this point before but I’ll make it again - most foreign students looking for college entry in Ireland next year will NOT have their LC equivalent done. Will our colleges turn them away OR come up an alternative /accept their alternative ?
(I’m aware that this is the teaching and lecturing forum. Are you a college lecturer, or otherwise involved in college entry in some way? If so, I apologise. If not though, what is your hang up on college entry? Getting kids into college is not your job, nor is it your problem. Teaching your course(s) and preparing them for their exam(s) is.)0 -
I agree, but that’s what I predict would happen. Either that, or we’d make up every lost week in June.I agree with most of what you say regarding the marking of the exams. But I don’t think we should stand for cutting down midterms, Christmas and Easter. Imagine how exhausted we would be by this time next year. Talk about burn out.0 -
I would think they’ll consider it part of this year’s 167, not next year’s, and they’ll tell us we should be happy that they’re not making us make up the entire 9 weeks we missed (or whatever it will have been, if we don’t end up back in class by June - 9 is right, I think, isn’t it?).Sorry I misread your post....so basically if we go back earlier to teach it is not counted in the 167 days for the school year 20/21.
If we extend the school year by working longer in a June 2021 (to make up for school closure to mark exams) the 2021 exams are pushed back....they are due to start on the 8th June 2021.0 -
I would think they’ll consider it part of this year’s 167, not next year’s, and they’ll tell us we should be happy that they’re not making us make up the entire 9 weeks we missed (or whatever it will have been, if we don’t end up back in class by June - 9 is right, I think, isn’t it?).
I ended up working more hours by far in the 3 weeks we have "missed" so far than I would in a normal week. If that continues for another 6 weeks then how can it be counted as 9 weeks "missed"?0 -
I would think they’ll consider it part of this year’s 167, not next year’s, and they’ll tell us we should be happy that they’re not making us make up the entire 9 weeks we missed (or whatever it will have been, if we don’t end up back in class by June - 9 is right, I think, isn’t it?).
I think the whole “school closure” vs “annual leave” will come into it.
We are entitled to 20 days annual leave plus bank holidays.
I don’t know what the exact rules are on the number of days a school needs to be open for.....only that it is 167 days.0 -
I would think they’ll consider it part of this year’s 167, not next year’s, and they’ll tell us we should be happy that they’re not making us make up the entire 9 weeks we missed (or whatever it will have been, if we don’t end up back in class by June - 9 is right, I think, isn’t it?).
" Hello there this is 2010 Speaking, just to let you know I'll be calling around again in August 2020. Do you still have those FEMPI notes that I told you not to put away?.... Grand, grand... see you then... bye,bye, bye,bye."0 -
When is the announcement?0
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I agree. So did I. That’s still how it’ll be framed though, and then, if we resist, Leo and his pals (or whoever is in power, by then) will make us the villains, putting ourselves before the poor, disadvantaged leaving cert students.I ended up working more hours by far in the 3 weeks we have "missed" so far than I would in a normal week. If that continues for another 6 weeks then how can it be counted as 9 weeks "missed"?0
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