Schools closed until undetermined date - was March 29th

mirrorwall14

CraftySue wrote: »

I have plenty of backbone thank you very much, I can't see how these are dire educational decisions. The leaving cert date has been rescheduled, students will have been sitting at home since March, we as teachers should support them complete practical subjects and prepare for exams. Not only that if 1st,2nd years etc are asked to come back in July ,-I think we should do that as well. I think it's ironic how teachers here never said a word in support, or were willing to throw SNAs under the bus with the prospect of redeployment into health care roles are now up in arms for been asked to do their job- teaching and preparing students for exams

That’s a bit much. I’ve worked my absolute ass off teaching my students online, working more house than I’ve ever worked. I am doing my job. Already. I’m not complaining about doing my job. I’m complaining about the lack of clarity. The lack of joined up thinking. And when it comes to the Junior cert the absolute farce of extending all these issues into their senior cycle exam too by moving their exams into the next school year. Madness

CraftySue

Multipass wrote: »

I can only speak from my experience - but my son has not been sitting at home. He has got up early every Monday morning and attended a normal school week. His teachers, nearly all of them, have been engaged and working hard to keep everyone moving along. Today has been a huge disappointment.

Apologies, I know students are working away, bit it's not the same as direct contact with teachers. Students need to do a leaving cert, for some it will be the last exam they do, for others to get into college/apprenticeship. I know there were other options like predictive grading etc, but those would not have worked, and this seems to me the fairest way. If the leaving cert is on in July, I think it's only right and fair they have direct contact with teachers, and that teachers should be willing to support them

chocoholic999

They could easily have canceled the JC. The decision was very strategic. We will now be doing what they always wanted, correcting our own students exams.

Also if JCs are doing actual JC papers, the schools would need to all do them at the same time or else there will be lots of leaks online like the mocks.

C__MC

chocoholic999 wrote: »

They could easily have canceled the JC. The decision was very strategic. We will now be doing what they always wanted, correcting our own students exams.

Also if JCs are doing actual JC papers, the schools would need to all do them at the same time or else there will be lots of leaks online like the mocks.

Very good point
What's the story on JC wood work projects and metal work?
Are they to be completed?
Art?
I know religion also has a write up
When will this be done?

mirrorwall14

CraftySue wrote: »

Apologies, I know students are working away, bit it's not the same as direct contact with teachers. Students need to do a leaving cert, for some it will be the last exam they do, for others to get into college/apprenticeship. I know there were other options like predictive grading etc, but those would not have worked, and this seems to me the fairest way. If the leaving cert is on in July, I think it's only right and fair they have direct contact with teachers, and that teachers should be willing to support them

But this is exactly the lack of joined up thinking we are discussing. What about the hundreds and hundreds of teachers whose contracts finish on June1st and will not get paid for the summer? And may well not be returning to that school the following yet? What about teachers who start career breaks? Or go on maternity? Will there be subs available? And will they be paid? There is NO clarity in this beyond confirmation that it will not happen at the start of June

CraftySue

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

That’s a bit much. I’ve worked my absolute ass off teaching my students online, working more house than I’ve ever worked. I am doing my job. Already. I’m not complaining about doing my job. I’m complaining about the lack of clarity. The lack of joined up thinking. And when it comes to the Junior cert the absolute farce of extending all these issues into their senior cycle exam too by moving their exams into the next school year. Madness

I've no issue with looking for clarity, I do have a issue with teachers getting annoyed about having to go in and teach/support students in July- If that what needs to be done, we need to do it

mirrorwall14

CraftySue wrote: »

I've no issue with looking for clarity, I do have a issue with teachers getting annoyed about having to go in and teach/support students in July- If that what needs to be done, we need to do it

Why would I not be allowed to be annoyed or irritated? I’ve been working my ass off. I have no childcare in July. And if grandparents are still cocooning? Yes I’ll figure it out in the end. And yes I’ll be there as I’m lucky enough to be permanent but equally hell yes I’m allowed to be irritated and annoyed the same as the students themselves are.

Sammy2012

Okay I understand that the LC is the major issue at the moment but what will happen in primary schools??! I'm just curious as to peoples thoughts on it.

TheDriver

I've just noticed on the press release that all the practical exans are also going on in July etc. These are usually spread out over 3 weeks followed by 2-3 weeks final teaching. Sounds like it will be a hellish situation

mirrorwall14

Sammy2012 wrote: »

Okay I understand that the LC is the major issue at the moment but what will happen in primary schools??! I'm just curious as to peoples thoughts on it.

Closed until at least June. Probably September tbh in my opinion. Crèches sooner so the workforce can get back to work where possible

km79

TheDriver wrote: »

I've just noticed on the press release that all the practical exans are also going on in July etc. These are usually spread out over 3 weeks followed by 2-3 weeks final teaching. Sounds like it will be a hellish situation

They will surely go the same way as the orals when that is actually thought about

bobbyss

combat14 wrote: »

So do we stop online teaching after Easter if coming back to teach in july?

Indeed.

I am wondering if the minister has ever expressed a view on the effort that some teachers have put in online?

Millem

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Presume somebody will be in for your maternity leave and they'd do it

No my job is not being replaced. The third years go into 4th year. I teach an option subject.

rainbowtrout

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

But this is exactly the lack of joined up thinking we are discussing. What about the hundreds and hundreds of teachers whose contracts finish on June1st and will not get paid for the summer? And may well not be returning to that school the following yet? What about teachers who start career breaks? Or go on maternity? Will there be subs available? And will they be paid? There is NO clarity in this beyond confirmation that it will not happen at the start of June

What have career breaks and maternity leave got to do with it? Career breaks start in September and run to the end of August the following year. Teachers who have been on career break all year will still be on career break, teachers who are due to go in September are not on career break. Maternity leave will take place as normal, if you are due to go on maternity leave in July, you clearly will not be teaching, if you are not due to go on maternity leave, you will.

I would also presume that contract issues have been raised already, and detail will come out in the coming days.

linguist

I've been dipping in and out of this and I have to say we need to calm down a little.

It is being proposed that we would provide two weeks' support to sixth years in advance of their rescheduled exams. During that time, there will be a huge focus on completing the required practical work and coursework write-ups in certain subjects. So a lot of the workload will surely be done there.

Since only the sixth years will be in - which is a fact if you read over what the Minister has said and listen to his interviews - we are probably looking at block classes. This approach would mean that not all staff would need to be be in every day or at least for more than the required contact time. So although the students would have two weeks' contact time, you might have about 7 hours with them (your normal timetable) but concentrated into blocks. Again, I imagine Art, Practical Subjects, Geography etc. will be jumping up and down looking to get their work finished. You won't be stuck in the school from 9-4 for two solid weeks. Just stand back and think about it rationally and give the unions, management bodies and the DES a chance to work something out.

rainbowtrout

Sammy2012 wrote: »

Okay I understand that the LC is the major issue at the moment but what will happen in primary schools??! I'm just curious as to peoples thoughts on it.

At the press conference this evening Joe McHugh was asked if schools were closed until September so as a result of the new measures, and he said no, he couldn't confirm that (don't remember the exact wording). Which obviously doesn't make sense if they are not holding exams in June, they are hardly going to have schools open in May, but he might be referencing primary schools going back in June if things have improved.

km79

linguist wrote: »

I've been dipping in and out of this and I have to say we need to calm down a little.

It is being proposed that we would provide two weeks' support to sixth years in advance of their rescheduled exams. During that time, there will be a huge focus on completing the required practical work and coursework write-ups in certain subjects. So a lot of the workload will surely be done there.

Since only the sixth years will be in - which is a fact if you read over what the Minister has said and listen to his interviews - we are probably looking at block classes. This approach would mean that not all staff would need to be be in every day or at least for more than the required contact time. So although the students would have two weeks' contact time, you might have about 7 hours with them (your normal timetable) but concentrated into blocks. Again, I imagine Art, Practical Subjects, Geography etc. will be jumping up and down looking to get their work finished. You won't be stuck in the school from 9-4 for two solid weeks. Just stand back and think about it rationally and give the unions, management bodies and the DES a chance to work something out.

Yeah I’ve come around to that
The massive fly in the ointment is the hairbraines JC plans
It impacts on so many parts of next the next school year
For what ?
They will get their JCPA which acknowledges their 3 years of work
Sure isn’t that what this airy fairy new JC is all about ?

After reflecting on it more and more I honestly think the JC is only there to be given back as a “win “ for the unions
It will go

The more pressing issue is online classes after Easter .........and whether we will be wasting our time for a lot of the students who will not engage now . And who would blame them

rainbowtrout

linguist wrote: »

I've been dipping in and out of this and I have to say we need to calm down a little.

It is being proposed that we would provide two weeks' support to sixth years in advance of their rescheduled exams. During that time, there will be a huge focus on completing the required practical work and coursework write-ups in certain subjects. So a lot of the workload will surely be done there.

Since only the sixth years will be in - which is a fact if you read over what the Minister has said and listen to his interviews - we are probably looking at block classes. This approach would mean that not all staff would need to be be in every day or at least for more than the required contact time. So although the students would have two weeks' contact time, you might have about 7 hours with them (your normal timetable) but concentrated into blocks. Again, I imagine Art, Practical Subjects, Geography etc. will be jumping up and down looking to get their work finished. You won't be stuck in the school from 9-4 for two solid weeks. Just stand back and think about it rationally and give the unions, management bodies and the DES a chance to work something out.

And also if the practicals are to take place during this period of time (Art, Ag Science, Construction, Engineering, Computer Science... not sure if there's anything else) as well as the LCA interviews, there will be a lot of teachers on the road operating as examiners.

Schools operating blocked class groupings of some sort would probably work far better than whatever timetable was operating during the school year.

acequion

CraftySue wrote: »

I've no issue with looking for clarity, I do have a issue with teachers getting annoyed about having to go in and teach/support students in July- If that what needs to be done, we need to do it

You sound like the type of teacher who claims to be willing to do just anything for your students but couldn't care less about the impact on your collegues, your fellow teachers who you work side to side with.

Every teacher is willing to make sacrifices,every teacher is willing to be as flexible as possible in these exceptional circumstances. But within reason. And imposing the JC exams on schools, teachers and students when we're all trying to pick up the pieces in the next school year, is too much to expect. They were able to cancel something as important as the LC orals, yet they can't write off something as insignificant in the grand scheme of things, as the JC.

km79

rainbowtrout wrote: »

And also if the practicals are to take place during this period of time (Art, Ag Science, Construction, Engineering, Computer Science... not sure if there's anything else) as well as the LCA interviews, there will be a lot of teachers on the road operating as examiners.

Schools operating blocked class groupings of some sort would probably work far better than whatever timetable was operating during the school year.

I would assume lots of people travelling large distances to go to lots of schools would not be wise
As the orals have been cancelled the logical and equitable thing to do would be to award 100% for all projects too surely ??????
Might help out those who don’t do a foreign language/Irish and are not benefiting from this ?????

Also the project work could in theory take all the students and teachers time during this period
They are always asking to be released from my revision classes .......
I really don’t know how much thought has been put into a lot of this

Shn99

Hi all, Haven't read through previous posts so not sure what the general consensus is regarding today's announcement. Not everyone on this thread will agree with me nor is that the aim of this. I cant speak for all 60,000 6th year students but I'll try my best based off the general attitude within the school I attend(200+ 6th yrs).

Todays announcement was gutting. The past few days when there was an announcement looming, there was an air of hope, hope that the announcement would give concrete clarity once and for all. I understand that we are in the middle of a global pandemic, the likes we have never ever seen before, but as a 6th year student the LC is built up to be the biggest thing you've ever done in your life. Todays announcement has made us feel worse rather than better (look at twitter for an example). The pressure students are under in normal circumstances and the implications it has on a teenagers mental health is bad enough in normal circumstances let alone during a global pandemic. I was sickened when Joe McHugh said on 6 1 news "No students are not alone"...pretty sure we are. We lack the proper contact with friends, teachers, grandparents, other relatives ect ect. I know some of you might think "oh well you can message your teacher ect" its not the same. No one's mental health is good at the moment with this lockdown, when i say no one i'm on about all age groups ect. A Lot of us 6th years just like we have nothing positive to work towards. No graduation, No debs, No LC holiday, No summer jobs, festivals ect. We were all absolutely buzzing for this summer. Yes there is a way bigger picture out there but as a 17/18 year old in 6th year its hard enough to see that. The Leaving Cert is not a necessity, especially in the midst of a pandemic. They gave next to no consideration to the ISSU survey and the petitions that were signed. The fall out from today is alot bigger than in previous weeks.

I may have waffled a lot in that and not all of it makes sense but I just wanted to put it out there. I don't know if teachers on this thread will understand but pls keep it respectful. I feel for the teachers too, It doesn't seem like there was much/any consultation with teachers before this was announced. The departments of education in many other countries gave their students and teachers proper clarity nearly straight away under the same circumstances(COVID-19).

Thank you to all the teachers who have tried their best in facilitating their students online during these times, the Department have let us all down in my opinion

Rosita

km79 wrote: »

The more pressing issue is online classes after Easter .........and whether we will be wasting our time for a lot of the students who will not engage now . And who would blame them

I’m also wondering what we teach Third Years after Easter? Are they doing the same exam as they were going to do? And if not what is the school assessment meant to be? The mention of assessment tasks needing to be completed suggests it is the same arrangement but in the other hand he said the JC was cancelled? Like I said earlier it takes a special effort to have since March 12th to figure this out and still provide such a confused message. It’s obvious that all of this could change and but at least with the LC it’s clear what they are trying to do. The JC is a mess.

Mardy Bum

Rosita wrote: »

I’m also wondering what we teach Third Years after Easter? Are they doing the same exam as they were going to do? And if not what is the school assessment meant to be? The mention of assessment tasks needing to be completed suggests it is the same arrangement but in the other hand he said the JC was cancelled? Like I said earlier it takes a special effort to have since March 12th to figure this out and still provide such a confused message. It’s obvious that all of this could change and but at least with the LC it’s clear what they are trying to do. The JC is a mess.

Sounds like the exact same exam only we are correcting it. Keep doing what you are doing.

km79

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Sounds like the exact same exam only we are correcting it. Keep doing what you are doing.

I will be revising
For 6 weeks
For an exam
In
September
Maybe

Random sample

Rosita wrote: »

I’m also wondering what we teach Third Years after Easter? Are they doing the same exam as they were going to do? And if not what is the school assessment meant to be? The mention of assessment tasks needing to be completed suggests it is the same arrangement but in the other hand he said the JC was cancelled? Like I said earlier it takes a special effort to have since March 12th to figure this out and still provide such a confused message. It’s obvious that all of this could change and but at least with the LC it’s clear what they are trying to do. The JC is a mess.

https://www.examinations.ie/misc-doc/EN-EX-59606118.pdf It’s laid out here, same exam as it would have been.

I’m hoping the AT’s get dropped off it though...

There’s no mention of you will be marking them

km79

Random sample wrote: »

https://www.examinations.ie/misc-doc/EN-EX-59606118.pdf It’s laid out here, same exam as it would have been.

I’m hoping the AT’s get dropped off it though...

There’s no mention of you will be marking them

And different schools have flexibility when they give the exam
The same exam
In different schools
At different times
But in another part they say they can’t deliver them online as it would compromise the integrity of the exam
LOL

School based assessment = correct yourself
The language used is key
Classroom based assessment = correct yourself

It’s a glorified summer exam
4 months later

rainbowtrout

km79 wrote: »

I would assume lots of people travelling large distances to go to lots of schools would not be wise
As the orals have been cancelled the logical and equitable thing to do would be to award 100% for all projects too surely ??????
Might help out those who don’t do a foreign language/Irish and are not benefiting from this ?????

Also the project work could in theory take all the students and teachers time during this period
They are always asking to be released from my revision classes .......
I really don’t know how much thought has been put into a lot of this

I was actually expecting today for an announcement that all the practicals would be cancelled and go the way of the orals. It would as you said level the playing field for the non language students etc.

That's probably the biggest logistical problem here. When I'm out examining I'm out for the week. Can't expect people to be in two places at once. There would be a considerable cohort of teachers out examining over the two weeks that they are proposing we be in schools with the LCs.

Logically the conclusion I'm coming to is that the two weeks are effectively to run all of the practicals and students can have block study sessions with teachers in between. Not sure how else it would work.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Millem wrote: »

No my job is not being replaced. The third years go into 4th year. I teach an option subject.

Presume they'll just divide amongst your Dept so

km79

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I was actually expecting today for an announcement that all the practicals would be cancelled and go the way of the orals. It would as you said level the playing field for the non language students etc.

That's probably the biggest logistical problem here. When I'm out examining I'm out for the week. Can't expect people to be in two places at once. There would be a considerable cohort of teachers out examining over the two weeks that they are proposing we be in schools with the LCs.

Logically the conclusion I'm coming to is that the two weeks are effectively to run all of the practicals and students can have block study sessions with teachers in between. Not sure how else it would work.

Unless it’s 4 weeks .......
“At least two weeks”

linguist

Shn99: I can fully empathise with you. I just don't know why you think teachers have any hand in this decision. It is imposed on us too.

What I will say to you is that the Leaving Cert has to be equitable to all - and that means those who did it last year and didn't get the courses they wanted and those who will do it in future years and be expected to revert to a heavily standardised system whereas you would have been given predictive grades. That's the reason why you have to be capable of seeing beyond yourself and your cohort and understand the basis for the integrity of the exam.

Secondly, all it takes is for one person to legally challenge their predicted grade for a court ruling to strike the whole thing down. The Minister addressed these concerns in his communications today if you take the time to read or listen to them. There is not a uniform system in place leading to a standardised awarding of predicted grades and you cannot wish away the right of others to be treated in an equitable manner or indeed vindicate their rights at law. These are real issues and decisions have to take account of them.

I do empathise with your concerns. As teachers we are not the decision makers in this. I would finally say to you that whilst students should be and are consulted with regard to future reforms, nowhere in your education - up to and including a PhD should life take you on that journey - will you get to dictate the standard you should meet. You are always required to meet the standard that is in place.