Schools closed until undetermined date - was March 29th

rainbowtrout

km79 wrote: »

The JC is a completely different kettle of fish as well you know
And
They do have something to show
They have the JCPA which reflects all the wonderful things they did and achieved during their 3 years

The SEC won’t be standing over the September JC
So what’s the point of it ?
I can predict the results of the whole year group in almost every single subject right now
Single digit number of students getting distinctions
Everyone else getting either Merits or Higher Merits
Maybe the odd Achieved or whatever it is called !

They haven't done the JCPA in every subject.

How do you know the SEC won't stand over the September JC? They haven't actually said anything about how it will be assessed or graded.

acequion

I really am quite astonished at certain posters blithely talking about correcting and supervising the JC as if that proposal was in any way acceptable!

Do those of you who are fine with this, realise that if you do it this year you're doing it forever more? That it's what the Dept have always wanted since Ruari Quinn first mooted it and it's Harold Hislop, the chief inspector's most pressing desire. And unions fought tooth and nail to keep it out and rightly so. But if it comes in this Sept,there's no way you'll get back the externally assessed JC. Are some of you ok with that? You don't think you've enough pressure in the job?

And logistically of course that plan is a mess. What young 3rd year is going to be primed for a big exam in September? They are all on holidays from this evening's announcement and good luck trying to motivate them. That's their junior cycle done and dusted as far as they're concerned. Even the workers won't have the stomach for it as far out as September, maybe later.

The best solution for everyone is to cancel the JC. I've already contacted my local TD and my union. I'll be retired in a few short years, you guys are quite frankly crazy if you let this happen!

Inspector Coptoor

combat14 wrote: »

so are teachers correcting the "junior cert" in September for free?

will this be an every year thing then?!

McHugh said on Newstalk this evening that the fees for JC would be refunded.

I will not mark my own students deferred state exams as an in house exam without remuneration.

Far from giving us clarity - today has muddied the waters further.

I am very invested in the 6th years I teach this year.
I have a form class who I’ve been with for 6 years now and I have two LC classes.
I will do whatever I can to support and help them and I will teach for 2 weeks in July, absolutely no problem.

But I will not mark a deferred and waste of time JC exam

MacGyver007

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

McHugh said on Newstalk this evening that the fees for JC would be refunded.

I will not mark my own students make deferred state exams as an in house exam without remuneration.

Far from giving us clarity - today has muddied the waters further.

I am very invested in the 6th years I teach this year.
I have a form class who I’ve been with for 6 years now and I have two LC classes.
I will do whatever I can to support and help them and I will teach for 2 weeks in July, absolutely no problem.

But I will not make a deferred and waste of time JC exam

Sums up my feelings on the situation

jayo76

From my understanding of this situation, yes there is a very clear expectation that the "cancelled" junior cert exams will be corrected by class teachers. There is no way this should happen and teachers need to make their views known to their Union

Also from my understanding the expectation is that all teachers not just those of 6th years will be in for the two weeks in July/August to help with smaller groupings/class sizes.

r93kaey5p2izun

The JC holds no value as a school exam. Certainly not enough value to let it have any impact on next year's school term, with the new 5th Years affected in many schools, and possibly other groups too in order to facilitate it. Teachers are mad if they agree to it. I think teachers should try to accommodate the LC and be as flexible as possible, including giving up holidays for it. But do not accept the farce of a worthless school based JC causing additional workload and impinging on the new term.

spurious

combat14 wrote: »

so are teachers correcting the "junior cert" in September for free?

will this be an every year thing then?!

You can be sure if people do it this year, it will be.

I spent almost all my career with children for whom the JC/Group or Inter. was their final exam. They may not be in every school, but there is a sizeable number of those young people out there.

The changes that are afoot, between common level exams and the ditching of certain subjects has badly affected these groups and their teachers.
The CBAs and all those other changes pre-suppose you have children who attend regularly, or for more than a couple of years. This is not the case with many children. I suppose I am speaking on behalf of the teachers in the many primary schools around the country that offer the Junor Cert, the ones which cater for children with chaotic lives, possibly already attracting Garda attention, for whom school is one of the few reliables in their lives. The sort of schools that hand pick 5 JC subjects that they have the best chance at and work towards passing those when the children attend. Without the JC to aim for, those young people lose one of their few chances at ever getting into any sort of legitimate work.

I know these young people are not top of anyone's agenda in the Department, but they are out there. I wish they had found some way of running the JC properly.

MacGyver007

acequion wrote: »

The best solution for everyone is to cancel the JC. I've already contacted my local TD and my union.

spurious wrote: »

You can be sure if people do it, it will be.

Which is why now is the time to take your concerns from this thread and express them to your union. They need to receive the message loud and clear that we are deeply unhappy about this.

km79

rainbowtrout wrote: »

They haven't done the JCPA in every subject.

How do you know the SEC won't stand over the September JC? They haven't actually said anything about how it will be assessed or graded.

Junior Cycle Profile of Achievement = JCPA
Not cba
Other areas of Learning - The 3 years

The sec have said plenty

https://examinations.ie/misc-doc/EN-EX-59606118.pdf


https://examinations.ie/misc-doc/EN-EX-94224992.pdf

School based assessment

r93kaey5p2izun

spurious wrote: »

You can be sure if people do it this year, it will be.

I spent almost all my career with children for whom the JC/Group or Inter. was their final exam. They may not be in every school, but there is a sizeable number of those young people out there.

The changes that are afoot, between common level exams and the ditching of certain subjects has badly affected these groups and their teachers.
The CBAs and all those other changes pre-suppose you have children who attend regularly, or for more than a couple of years. This is not the case with many children. I suppose I am speaking on behalf of the teachers in the many primary schools around the country that offer the Junor Cert, the ones which cater for children with chaotic lives, possibly already attracting Garda attention, for whom school is one of the few reliables in their lives. The sort of schools that hand pick 5 JC subjects that they have the best chance at and work towards passing those when the children attend. Without the JC to aim for, those young people lose one of their few chances at ever getting into any sort of legitimate work.

I know these young people are not top of anyone's agenda in the Department, but they are out there. I wish they had found some way of running the JC properly.

I agree re those leaving with just the JC. It's an average of about 18% in DEIS schools. But I don't think a school exam is a worthwhile replacement for them either.

jimmytwotimes 2013

A number of issues will need to be cleared up before exams take place.

How practicals, projects and tuition, in the 2 weeks period prior to the exams, will be organised is going to be interesting.

There's a lot of work still to be done in even just writing these up. My LC History class have their RSRs done but not written up. The booklets are still at school and will need to be completed, similar for geography etc.

Practicals like Home Ec, Metalwork, Wood etc have to be done on site and social distancing will have to be observed, many schools only have one practical room in each subject area.

For JCs, they still sit the paper and teachers will now correct it. I'd be concerned tho about remaining CBAs and ATs. Some Assessment Tasks were being completed when schools closed and students will have to complete these after months of not even thinking about them, tuff enuf on the students I think. Completing CBAs remotely will be very difficult for the weaker student as they won't have the same level of guidance they'd have at school.

Going to be interesting to see how the Dept proposes to resolve these issues.

Redser87

Susan Quiet Stool wrote: »

I think teachers should try to accommodate the LC and be as flexible as possible, including giving up holidays for it. But do not accept the farce of a worthless school based JC causing additional workload and impinging on the new term.

I completely agree. I am primary so the exams don't affect me directly, but we could well be sent back early too. I'm married to a healthcare worker and they really are making huge sacrifices.
If we have to give up holidays, we will have to just get on with it for one year. What individuals and groups do in this crisis will be remembered. If we want to be mentioned in the same breath as Gardaí and nurses from now on, we can't be seen to be churlish. We need to pick our battles and do what needs to be done.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Redser87 wrote: »

I completely agree. I am primary so the exams don't affect me directly, but we could well be sent back early too. I'm married to a healthcare worker and they really are making huge sacrifices.
If we have to give up holidays, we will have to just get on with it for one year. What individuals and groups do in this crisis will be remembered. If we want to be mentioned in the same breath as Gardaí and nurses from now on, we can't be seen to be churlish. We need to pick our battles and do what needs to be done.

Teachers will never be viewed in the same way as Gardaí and nurses. Just the way it is, holidays blinker the view many have of teachers so don't expect that to change.

Most people think we're on holidays since schools closed

Inspector Coptoor

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

A number of issues will need to be cleared up before exams take place.

How practicals, projects and tuition, in the 2 weeks period prior to the exams, will be organised is going to be interesting.

There's a lot of work still to be done in even just writing these up. My LC History class have their RSRs done but not written up. The booklets are still at school and will need to be completed, similar for geography etc.

Practicals like Home Ec, Metalwork, Wood etc have to be done on site and social distancing will have to be observed, many schools only have one practical room in each subject area.

For JCs, they still sit the paper and teachers will now correct it. I'd be concerned tho about remaining CBAs and ATs. Some Assessment Tasks were being completed when schools closed and students will have to complete these after months of not even thinking about them, tuff enuf on the students I think. Completing CBAs remotely will be very difficult for the weaker student as they won't have the same level of guidance they'd have at school.

Going to be interesting to see how the Dept proposes to resolve these issues.

Please don’t be glibly stating that teachers will now mark the junior cycle class based exams

This all needs to be ironed out & can’t be just accepted.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Please don’t be glibly stating that teachers will now mark the junior cycle class based exams

This all needs to be ironed out & can’t be just accepted.

School based, what do you take that to mean?

iamwhoiam

Redser87 wrote: »

I completely agree. I am primary so the exams don't affect me directly, but we could well be sent back early too. I'm married to a healthcare worker and they really are making huge sacrifices.
If we have to give up holidays, we will have to just get on with it for one year. What individuals and groups do in this crisis will be remembered. If we want to be mentioned in the same breath as Gardaí and nurses from now on, we can't be seen to be churlish. We need to pick our battles and do what needs to be done.

Exactly this . Frontline staff , cleaners , porters , lab staff , delivers , etc etc have all stepped up during this crises . So teachers should also step up and take the hit if they can help out in any way at all

Inspector Coptoor

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

School based, what do you take that to mean?

I know what the minister and the DES Want it to mean.

I’m not on board with it.

We’ll have enough to be doing whenever we get back to school

Bobtheman

I think any arrangements in July will have to take account of travel bans. What happens if you can travel abroad and you have a holiday booked ? However I still see travel banned in July so I think it be expected you come in July. We will probably have a delayed school year in 2020.
The other difficulty is are we expected to keep teaching kids over the summer ?
My gut tells me they will dump a lot of issues on local BOMs.

km79

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Exactly this . Frontline staff , cleaners , porters , lab staff , delivers , etc etc have all stepped up during this crises . So teachers should also step up and take the hit if they can help out in any way at all

I went from classroom teaching to online teaching OVERNIGHT. Thought I (and all the other teachers ) had stepped up
Wasn’t aware all those professions were working their annual leave
Fair play to them

Anyone worried about PR can forget about it
We are not mentioned in the same breath as supermarket workers now . Never mind other public servants such as guards and nurses

Enjoy the weekend folks
I think we all need to take a break .
Speculation will still be there for us to discuss next month. And the months after

Rosita

iamwhoiam wrote: »

Exactly this . Frontline staff , cleaners , porters , lab staff , delivers , etc etc have all stepped up during this crises . So teachers should also step up and take the hit if they can help out in any way at all

Without wishing to seem ungrateful let's call it as it is - frontline workers, deliveries, cleaners, shop assistants etc. are still essentially doing their regular jobs at their regular times not fighting in Syria. Many others have their places of work closed and have no choice but to remain at home. Others are fortunate (because they still get paid) that their jobs are deemed essential. It's probably an unpopular thing to be saying but let's not overplay the "taking the hit". Fair play to them but it doesn't make everyone else worthless. And I say that as someone who dropped a family member to work at 8am today.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I know what the minister and the DES Want it to mean.

I’m not on board with it.

We’ll have enough to be doing whenever we get back to school

We won't have much choice and in the greater scheme of things it's not a big sacrifice in the current climate. There's no reason to think this will become the norm in the years ahead so roll with it.

Rosita

Bobtheman wrote: »

I think any arrangements in July will have to take account of travel bans. What happens if you can travel abroad and you have a holiday booked ? However I still see travel banned in July so I think it be expected you come in July. We will probably have a delayed school year in 2020.
The other difficulty is are we expected to keep teaching kids over the summer ?
My gut tells me they will dump a lot of issues on local BOMs.

I still think there is huge doubt about the LC. Certainly couldn't see much happening in July anyway.

iamwhoiam

Rosita wrote: »

Without wishing to seem ungrateful let's call it as it is - frontline workers, deliveries, cleaners, shop assistants etc. are still essentially doing their regular jobs at their regular times not fighting in Syria. Many others have their places of work closed and have no choice but to remain at home. Others are fortunate (because they still get paid) that their jobs are deemed essential. It's probably an unpopular thing to be saying but let's not overplay the "taking the hit". Fair play to them but it doesn't make everyone else worthless. And I say that as someone who dropped a family member to work at 8am today.

At no stage whatsoever did i say anyone else was worthless .All I know is if I had an opportunity to step up I would do it without hesitation and without question .,And by the way some frontline staff are working way above their normal hours and staying well past their shift .

jayo76

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

We won't have much choice and in the greater scheme of things it's not a big sacrifice in the current climate. There's no reason to think this will become the norm in the years ahead so roll with it.

There is every reason to think it will become the norm unfortunately. Since Ruairi Quinn first tried to abolish thd JC in 2010 what the DES have wanted is a school based, teachers assessing their students Junior Cycle.

I will help my LC Class in any way I can, give up two weeks in July I def will this year. Spend September correcting a "cancelled" Junior Cert, no thank you.

km79

iamwhoiam wrote: »

At no stage whatsoever did i say anyone else was worthless .All I know is if I had an opportunity to step up I would do it without hesitation and without question .,And by the way some frontline staff are working way above their normal hours and staying well past their shift .

As have we . And do so all the time week in week out
Ah forget about it
Outside to enjoy the sunshine

khalessi

iamwhoiam wrote: »

At no stage whatsoever did i say anyone else was worthless .All I know is if I had an opportunity to step up I would do it without hesitation and without question .,And by the way some frontline staff are working way above their normal hours and staying well past their shift .

Thats pretty normal staying past shift, it is part of the job and i did it regularly when I was working as a nurse , 15 hour shift when should have been 8 as no staff. Just at the moment it is difficult.

Gerry T

km79 wrote:

I went from classroom teaching to online teaching OVERNIGHT. Thought I (and all the other teachers ) had stepped up Wasn’t aware all those professions were working their annual leave Fair play to them

That's not really stepping up, more like doing your job a different way, most everyone is doing that. It does take longer but not like theres much else to be doing.
Some teachers are great and and really putting in the effort. Video sessions, correcting work, taking queries by various methods. Others are doing bare min, like read pages 86 to 74 a d do q4, correcting nothing.

km79 wrote:

Anyone worried about PR can forget about it We are not mentioned in the same breath as supermarket workers now . Never mind other public servants such as guards and nurses

If you went in every day in front of students risking your life or your immediate family (probably) then you would. That's what super market workers and all the others you mention do.

km79 wrote:

Enjoy the weekend folks I think we all need to take a break . Speculation will still be there for us to discuss next month. And the months after

As some have said unprecedented times, nobody knows where we will be in May let alone July/Aug, but as solid a contingency play you could get for LC at least.

Inspector Coptoor

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

We won't have much choice and in the greater scheme of things it's not a big sacrifice in the current climate. There's no reason to think this will become the norm in the years ahead so roll with it.

I’ll roll with a lot of stuff.

I’m rolling with having a wife on the front line, no childcare and trying to teach from home.

I’ll roll with teaching in July.

I won’t roll with ad hoc, poorly planned JC assessment for the sake of it

joebloggs32

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I’ll roll with a lot of stuff.

I’m rolling with having a wife on the front line, no childcare and trying to teach from home.

I’ll roll with teaching in July.

I won’t roll with ad hoc, poorly planned JC assessment for the sake of it

There is a small cohort that need the junior cert as they go no further in formal education. If they are not given the opportunity to some exam they will leave the education system with absolutely nothing to show for it. In years to come some of these students will suffer as they realise they need to return to education.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I’ll roll with a lot of stuff.

I’m rolling with having a wife on the front line, no childcare and trying to teach from home.

I’ll roll with teaching in July.

I won’t roll with ad hoc, poorly planned JC assessment for the sake of it

Now is not the time for this. Given the sacrifices people are making, this is very small.

Those of you paranoid about the Depts aim to get teachers to correct the JC in the years ahead, maybe wait until we get out of this mess and see how it plays out. If it demanded of teachers in the years ahead, protest then.

This time is our generations war, just contribute, don't stand as the group who bitched about it as people died and others lost employment