Schools closed until undetermined date - was March 29th

Bobtheman

Notorious wrote: »

I heard something very different from a reliable TUI source! Two weeks of teaching before the exams, only LC students and most likely block classes.

It could be chinese whispers? What about June 15th to July 15th distance learning?

Rosita

Notorious wrote: »

I heard something very different from a reliable TUI source! Two weeks of teaching before the exams, only LC students and most likely block classes.

Re. Block classes, presumably the precise detail of classes will be a local arrangement rather than a dictat from the Dept of Ed? Surprised to hear that it's part of discussions at all. Block classes really only exist in distinction to the regular timetable which won't be in play at that stage.

Rosita

doc_17 wrote: »

Block classes won’t work. How can you block teach 30 people? It’s a mess. 8 is prob the max we could put into our classrooms and have social distancing. So the other 15-20 have to be broke up into 2 or 3 groups, supervised by 2 or 3 other teachers.

All the while Art, Engineering, Construction History and Geography students are trying to finish projects. It’s a mess.

We won’t be teaching in June. Get new sources.

I'd say the hall will come into use

Bobtheman

doc_17 wrote: »

Block classes won’t work. How can you block teach 30 people? It’s a mess. 8 is prob the max we could put into our classrooms and have social distancing. So the other 15-20 have to be broke up into 2 or 3 groups, supervised by 2 or 3 other teachers.

All the while Art, Engineering, Construction History and Geography students are trying to finish projects. It’s a mess.

We won’t be teaching in June. Get new sources.

Distance learning-not teaching in classes in June is what I heard about the proposal. June 15th until July 15th. Even if agreed and thats a big if-How to police? ie Laptop broken or people just dont bother

Benicetomonty

Konnor Hissing Pocket wrote: »

What’s this ‘15th June to 15th July ‘ nonsense? You’re not expected to interact with students on the 14th of June but are suddenly obliged to on the 15th?
Dubious source.

ASTI broached the idea of a break early June after the Dept stated remote learning for 6th years was to continue to mid July, at which point wed begin 2 weeks of teaching until the exams. Source is an SC member, who confirmed everything else that Bob is saying.
Consensus is that a lot of this will be unworkable. In particular, the practicals cannot be safely or efficiently carried out over 2 weeks. Which will be less than that, because students will be doing all their other subjects too. A stalling mechanism imo.

Bobtheman

The two weeks in July will only be for SIXTH YEARS. But all teachers required to come in-for what reason I dont know. Classes might be split so JC Eng teachers might be asked to teach half a sixth year group to keep numbers small? Who knows?
You will be asked to distance teach June 15th to July 15th -proably again 6th years only.
Obviously as stuff gets passed around-message gets changed.

If we are asked to vote on separate items then Im rejecting correcting JC. You do it once-correct your own puipls for state exam purposes then you have crossed the rubicon on the issue

Only a fool would view that change as temporary. FEMPI still in place 6 years after Trokia left.

Inspector Coptoor

If all of this talk of teaching in June July and August is true - just shut it down from now.

We don’t go back to remote teaching Monday week.

Just let everyone get on with getting through this.

Bobtheman

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

If all of this talk of teaching in June July and August is true - just shut it down from now.

We don’t go back to remote teaching Monday week.

Just let everyone get on with getting through this.

Lets see what ASTI SC decides. My gut says they will vote to accept it all bar the correcting the JC part. Or without a recommendation. But they wont reject it.

linguist

There is frankly only so much work that you can do in some subjects. In modern languages, for example, I'll have done just about as much as I can by the end of May. I have no problem in accepting work from students from mid-June to mid-July but I don't think it's realistic to continue assigning work in a fully structured way at that point. It's important that the DES allows for teachers' own judgement and local flexibility here. Think about what happens every year after graduation: the motivated ones continue calling in with work to be marked. I often encourage them to email me. I think that's the best way to take those few weeks and then we do our couple of weeks in late-July. I completely agree with block classes btw. It would be bonkers to go into work for 40 minutes every day.

ethical

There is a mental health timebomb ready to explode,since yesterday we 've heard all sorts of rumours and half rumours and yet very few ,if any word ,on the mental health of both students and teachers,because lets face it,we are the two bodies most affected by all of this and to be brutally honest no Union member gives a fcukin damn about either of us! If they did they would NOT HAVE PROLONGED THE LEAVING CERT SUFFERING FOR ANOTHER 3 MONTHS,NEITHER WOULD THEY HAVE CHANGED THE WORDING ON THE PRESS RELEASE ABOUT LOSS OF CONTACT TIME.(SEE EDUCAT.IE,down under the Ministers statement),SO THE WORK DONE BY TEACHERS SINCE 12TH MARCH COUNTS FOR NOTHING.
You know what, maybe we would be better off working for the HSE!

mirrorwall14

Just for the sake of it. This is the text I’ve been sent. I have also heard it from three other Union sources but as we all know that could be baloney. There is no confirmation I can find


Dear Steward,

Firstly I hope that you and your respective families are remaining safe and well at this difficult time. I apologise for sending you this email on what is not only the weekend but also your well-earned Easter holidays. However, I feel that in light of yesterday's announcement by Minister Joe McHugh it is important that you be given the opportunity to express your opinions in relation to these developments.

As I am sure your are aware the Leaving Certificate examinations have been deferred until late July or early August subject to advice from the Public Emergency Health Committee. The Junior Certificate has been cancelled and it is being proposed that students would sit a school-based exam in schools in September.

Minister McHugh has requested the co-operation of all teachers with the view of implementing the following model to facilitate the staging of these exams

That teachers continue to teach remotely until the end of May prior to taking a 2 week break.
That teachers continue to maintain a communication link with their Leaving Certificate students from mid June until mid July.
Teachers engage in two weeks of face to face teaching taking place from mid July to the end of July. This would be a whole school approach regardless of whether you teach Leaving Certificate students. Potentially block classes with smaller groups to be timetabled utilising all available staff in their subject areas which would also be in line with social distancing.
Remaining project work such as history, geography, engineering etc be completed during this 2 week period. The deadlines for these projects will be the in the last days prior to the commencement of the written timetable.
Any practical exams that were due to take place in May such as Art, Construction, Computer Science, Home Economics etc will now be included in the main exam timetable.
LCA tasks and practicals will also be in August as part of the main exam timetable.
Exams will potentially run from late July until the end of August ( or into the first few days of September ) if required. The model being proposed is one exam per day possibly including Saturdays until all exams have been completed. This is to limit congregating among students and also facilitate social distancing in exam centres.
Junior Certificate exams to be replaced with school based exams to take place in September. No clarity in relation to who would facilitate or correct these exams.
Delayed start of the next school year to facilitate the staging of the exams and I am presuming to allow teachers to be employed to correct the Leaving Certificate exams. No suggestion of been asked to make up the days from September later in the year.
Please be advised that this is what is currently being proposed but nothing has been agreed. ASTI has always advocated not assessing our own students or predicting grades. It welcomes the staging of the Leaving Certificate exams but has huge concerns about what is being asked of us. As your Standing Committee representative I have been asked to seek your views in this regard.

Standing Committee met yesterday for over 3 hours via zoom and will do so again next Tuesday and again on Thursday. It is important that grassroots members are consulted so it would be beneficial if you can contact teachers in your school over the weekend to get their views.

Please feel free to email me at any time over the weekend. This would be easier for me in terms of being able to compile your responses which will be treated confidentially.


Kind regards,

Kevin Wall
ASTI Standing Committee

randylonghorn

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

I won’t roll with ad hoc, poorly planned JC assessment for the sake of it

joebloggs32 wrote: »

There is a small cohort that need the junior cert as they go no further in formal education. If they are not given the opportunity to do some exam they will leave the education system with absolutely nothing to show for it.

Tbh I find myself agreeing with both these statements.

What I don't see as yet is a way to reconcile them, and yesterday's announcement certainly didn't provide it in any credible way. Sure, details to be worked out etc., but the general tone of it didn't make me optimistic that the issues involved had been given any real consideration.



What I do think is important (as others have said) is that your unions pretty much get it signed in blood that any eventual agreement re: measures to be taken this year in what is basically a national (and global) emergency do not set any precedent for the future.

Any more than the Health (Preservation and Protection and other Emergency Measures in the Public Interest) Act 2020 sets a precedent for turning Ireland into a police state where (for example) Gardaí have the right for ever more to stop you on the road and tell you to go home.



Just for clarity, I don't have a personal axe to grind here, as I work in a different area of education.

combat14

TheDriver wrote: »

I don't think 99% of teachers have a fundamental issue with July. The issue is a grand stand announcement which has made the public expecting something without having the employees informed. The same happened last week with SNAs and healthcare assistant debacle.
If we were asked by the minister, we could have easily told him that yesterday's announcement gave no assurance to LCs and allowed all other students to effectively down tools making our online teaching roles far more problematic after Easter.
Personally I don't trust governments, we get screwed repeatedly over many years.

but what exactly is july
? or is it july and august too?

combat14

Bobtheman wrote: »

Department to ask teachers to teach June 15 to July 15. Distance learning.
Then all teachers in for last two weeks July in school. Even those without sixth years.
Exams all of August. One per day.
JC exams in September to be corrected by teachers
Reliable source . ASTI

that's just not on

mirrorwall14

combat14 wrote: »

that's just not on

I’m a bit confused as to how we have all students in the building for block classes but then we can’t run two exams a day and students are expected to sit exams the whole way to September?

km79

Wow
I wish I hadn’t bothered checking the thread
Just wow
June now as well
I even see a mention of Saturday’s for examiners
LOL
If we accept this the union can just disband

Great to see teachers mental health featuring so prominently in all discussions too

combat14

combat14 wrote: »

that's just not on

looks like we may as well stop remote/online teaching for the rest of April and May if this is what is going down

Greensoup

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Just for the sake of it. This is the text I’ve been sent. I have also heard it from three other Union sources but as we all know that could be baloney. There is no confirmation I can find


Dear Steward,

Firstly I hope that you and your respective families are remaining safe and well at this difficult time. I apologise for sending you this email on what is not only the weekend but also your well-earned Easter holidays. However, I feel that in light of yesterday's announcement by Minister Joe McHugh it is important that you be given the opportunity to express your opinions in relation to these developments.

As I am sure your are aware the Leaving Certificate examinations have been deferred until late July or early August subject to advice from the Public Emergency Health Committee. The Junior Certificate has been cancelled and it is being proposed that students would sit a school-based exam in schools in September.

Minister McHugh has requested the co-operation of all teachers with the view of implementing the following model to facilitate the staging of these exams

That teachers continue to teach remotely until the end of May prior to taking a 2 week break.
That teachers continue to maintain a communication link with their Leaving Certificate students from mid June until mid July.
Teachers engage in two weeks of face to face teaching taking place from mid July to the end of July. This would be a whole school approach regardless of whether you teach Leaving Certificate students. Potentially block classes with smaller groups to be timetabled utilising all available staff in their subject areas which would also be in line with social distancing.
Remaining project work such as history, geography, engineering etc be completed during this 2 week period. The deadlines for these projects will be the in the last days prior to the commencement of the written timetable.
Any practical exams that were due to take place in May such as Art, Construction, Computer Science, Home Economics etc will now be included in the main exam timetable.
LCA tasks and practicals will also be in August as part of the main exam timetable.
Exams will potentially run from late July until the end of August ( or into the first few days of September ) if required. The model being proposed is one exam per day possibly including Saturdays until all exams have been completed. This is to limit congregating among students and also facilitate social distancing in exam centres.
Junior Certificate exams to be replaced with school based exams to take place in September. No clarity in relation to who would facilitate or correct these exams.
Delayed start of the next school year to facilitate the staging of the exams and I am presuming to allow teachers to be employed to correct the Leaving Certificate exams. No suggestion of been asked to make up the days from September later in the year.
Please be advised that this is what is currently being proposed but nothing has been agreed. ASTI has always advocated not assessing our own students or predicting grades. It welcomes the staging of the Leaving Certificate exams but has huge concerns about what is being asked of us. As your Standing Committee representative I have been asked to seek your views in this regard.

Standing Committee met yesterday for over 3 hours via zoom and will do so again next Tuesday and again on Thursday. It is important that grassroots members are consulted so it would be beneficial if you can contact teachers in your school over the weekend to get their views.

Please feel free to email me at any time over the weekend. This would be easier for me in terms of being able to compile your responses which will be treated confidentially.


Kind regards,

Kevin Wall
ASTI Standing Committee

So geography students will spend the 2 weeks of class teaching time before the exam writing up their projects? Mad stuff.

Shn99

My school has messaged parents telling LC students to take a break until Monday May 4th and that teachers wont be logging in on the 20th. They are saying they will issue further guidance on the 4th of May

km79

Shn99 wrote: »

My school has messaged parents telling students to take a break until Monday May 4th and that teachers wont be logging in on the 20th. They are saying they will issue further guidance on the 4th of May

It’s just one big mess now
As I said yday McHugh’s wording of closures was confusing

paddybarry

Shn99 wrote: »

My school has messaged parents telling students to take a break until Monday May 4th and that teachers wont be logging in on the 20th. They are saying they will issue further guidance on the 4th of May

Just leaving certs or all students?

Shn99

paddybarry wrote: »

Just leaving certs or all students?

Sorry should have specified, message was addressed to LC students only. No clue what is happening with 5th years or other years. Im friends with a few 5th years and they reckon their summer has started and have packed away the books

jayo76

Yes to be very clear unfortunately from what I was told today the expectation is that all teachers will continue to be available to 6th year students frm Monday April 20th through to the holding of the exams with the exception of a two week break the first two weeks of June.

All teachers also to be in for the two weeks of class teaching and online teaching of all other year groups to continue frm April 20th to end of May.

This is expectations from Dept even leaving aside JC mess.

mirrorwall14

jayo76 wrote: »

Yes to be very clear unfortunately from what I was told today the expectation is that all teachers will continue to be available to 6th year students frm Monday April 20th through to the holding of the exams with the exception of a two week break the first two weeks of June.

All teachers also to be in for the two weeks of class teaching and online teaching of all other year groups to continue frm April 20th to end of May.

This is expectations from Dept even leaving aside JC mess.

To be honest this is the bit I absolutely did expect. However teaching all the way to the exams? No. Available to the students? Absolutely.
I'll teach the last of the course remotely this term. But after that I've nothing left to teach. They have to learn it.

But honestly if I was a LC I think I'd just be saying I'm repeating next year and plan for that now. I don't think I could achieve my potential in what they are proposing and I couldn't maintain the stress level of what happens if its postponed again

Wildly Boaring

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

To be honest this is the bit I absolutely did expect. However teaching all the way to the exams? No. Available to the students? Absolutely.
I'll teach the last of the course remotely this term. But after that I've nothing left to teach. They have to learn it.

But honestly if I was a LC I think I'd just be saying I'm repeating next year and plan for that now. I don't think I could achieve my potential in what they are proposing and I couldn't maintain the stress level of what happens if its postponed again

Why could a student not reach their potential with an extra few weeks to study?

It's the same exam just later in the year.
All got 100% in the orals.

So take a decent break now. Create a good study plan and get at it

acequion

Well, if all that is true then we're in for a real fight and fight we'll have to.

Every single one of us is willing to compromise and willing to take considerably less leave this exceptional year.

But what they are asking, if all true, is as usual far too much. Even the ramifications of all staff in the building in July seems risky. The older the person the more at risk from this virus and many teachers are in their fifties and still quite a few in their sixties,with this group most likely to have very elderly parents. So, assuming there are still dangers about in mid July, would such teachers not be in their rights to point blank refuse?

And while it wouldn't surprise me if this were all true, I also have doubts. Our standing rep did not send such an email as the one posted by mirrorwall. Yet it was signed by a member of SC. Also, a post appears to have been removed on ASTI facebook page. So a mystery, just what we bloody need!

It really is very worrying. And also disgraceful of the Dept to once again behave with zero regard to the T&C of our job,let alone the mental health of everybody in these terrible times.

mirrorwall14

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

Why could a student not reach their potential with an extra few weeks to study?

It's the same exam just later in the year.
All got 100% in the orals.

So take a decent break now. Create a good study plan and get at it

Only in the orals and Music/Home Ec practicals.

Art, engineering, Construction Studies exams, plus the project submissions and portfolios are all to be completed in those two weeks as there is no current access to them. Those students aren't even going to get to cram with the teachers like the others, they're going to be swamped trying to complete them. When those like the Music students are on 100% in theirs. To be honest I think thats one of the most unfair parts of this. It should be all or nothing on those, what makes Music so special? (And I say that as a music teacher!)

TheDriver

Just to add, the stress levels of next year's leaving certs if they loose tuition in Sept.

Wildly Boaring

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Only in the orals and Music/Home Ec practicals.

Art, engineering, Construction Studies exams, plus the project submissions and portfolios are all to be completed in those two weeks as there is no current access to them. Those students aren't even going to get to cram with the teachers like the others, they're going to be swamped trying to complete them. When those like the Music students are on 100% in theirs. To be honest I think thats one of the most unfair parts of this. It should be all or nothing on those, what makes Music so special? (And I say that as a music teacher!)

Appreciate that.
It's harder for probably one of your subjects. The other 6 just got a bit more breathing space

km79

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Only in the orals and Music/Home Ec practicals.

Art, engineering, Construction Studies exams, plus the project submissions and portfolios are all to be completed in those two weeks as there is no current access to them. Those students aren't even going to get to cram with the teachers like the others, they're going to be swamped trying to complete them. When those like the Music students are on 100% in theirs. To be honest I think thats one of the most unfair parts of this. It should be all or nothing on those, what makes Music so special? (And I say that as a music teacher!)

And the orals.
I made this point yday
Very unfair