Covid 19 crisis - aid to the civil power

sparky42

Negative_G wrote: »

All personnel in the DF receive CBRN training.

Unfortunately, despite the post above. Personnel may go several years between initial and recurrent training.. This isn't to say that personnel can receive 'refresher' training at short notice.

The Corps of Engineers maintain and compose most of the assets relating to decontamination etc.

The average soldier *should* have access to CBRN kit.

Funny enough there was a Facebook post from the navy about one of the OPV's doing CBRN training what a month ago or so?

sparky42

sparky42 wrote: »

A most basic search shows that you are wrong. All the State has to do is declare a State of Emergency.
:rolleyes:

Look beyond Wikipedia

Negative_G

sparky42 wrote: »

Funny enough there was a Facebook post from the navy about one of the OPV's doing CBRN training what a month ago or so?

No doubt it is carried out but it is ad-hoc.

In any case, a basic capability is better than no capability

riffmongous

ectoraige wrote: »

One role that would be useful is decontamination units at hospitals to clean ambulances. At the moment ambulance crews are having to go through sets of PPE after each covid-19 call, and they are going to run out soon. If there were dedicated decon units that could stay suited for longer cleaning multiple ambulances it would preserve PPE for crews. It would also reduce turnaround times, it's taking at least 45 minutes each time.

Yeah makes sense

Regarding the suits they'd have to change after each call out anyway, those suits are meant to be single use and can't be decontaminated like the heavier chem ones. We (red cross) had to introduce a new PPE suit more similar to a surgeon's overalls because of this

TheBoyConor

Whitney Low Gunpoint wrote: »

How realistic is the reactivation of retirees?

I don't think it would be possible. A retired person is just that, retired, and no longer under any obligation to do anything. It would be purely on a voluntary basis. And most retirees will be old and thus would be an at risk group, so they couldn't be used anyway.

GM228

sparky42 wrote: »

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

No, they can't. Martial law does not exist within the republic of Ireland. The military cannot take over law enforcement in this country. They can only every act alone against external hostile threats.

A most basic search shows that you are wrong. All the State has to do is declare a State of Emergency.
:rolleyes:

You must have read this from Wikapedia?

The current Irish Constitution allows for martial law if the government declares a state of emergency, however capital punishment is prohibited in all circumstances, including a state of emergency.

It is not correct, note it even gives a green light to capital punishment according to Wikapedia which is prohibited by Article 15.2.5° of the Constitution.

Article 28.3.3° of the Constitution allows for certain so called martial law related matters to be legislated for. However, it is qualified in that it specifically applies in times of "war or armed rebellion", it simply means no laws enacted for the above reasons will be invalidated by any provision of the Constitution (with exception to the death penalty).

With regards to the Defence Forces and a state of emergency, the only provisions in law are as follows:-

1. Military command can pass directly to the Government in times of a state of emergency if directed by the President as per S17 of the Defence Act 1954, and,

2. Officers of the defence forces can carry out arrests when requested to do so by the Gardaí of a rank of superintendent or higher for certain offences under section 15 of the Criminal Law Act 1976, under the same rules which apply to Gardaí.

Hope that clarifies the position.

Cheerful Spring2

Whitney Low Gunpoint wrote: »

How realistic is the reactivation of retirees?

My friend was asked to return for Monday. He was retired near two years. Was in for 20 years and drove APC vehicles for the army.


The news can confirm this, they just need to ask the question and will likely get a reply!

Signore Fancy Pants

riffmongous wrote: »

Do you know what the PPE consists of? Suits in particular

What exact is a 'unit' here, brigade with an engineer unit being the experts as mentioned above?

TBH our CBRN suits are not required for Covid-19, respirators and canister maybe. They are designed for more robust threats.

A Brigade is made up of Infantry Battalions, Artillery Regiments, Cavalry Squadrons, support etc. A single "Unit" could consist of anything from 50-300 people.

We have hundreds of NATO level CBRN instructors but its not really applicable to this.

Signore Fancy Pants

Whitney Low Gunpoint wrote: »

How realistic is the reactivation of retirees?

There is zero talk of this in work so far. Only on social media.

I dont currently see the need.

uck51js9zml2yt

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I don't think it would be possible. A retired person is just that, retired, and no longer under any obligation to do anything. It would be purely on a voluntary basis. And most retirees will be old and thus would be an at risk group, so they couldn't be used anyway.

Not all old. A family member retired with 40 years of logistics experience. He's only 60. Would be interested to hear from the military guys.

uck51js9zml2yt

Cheerful Spring2 wrote: »

My friend was asked to return for Monday. He was retired near two years. Was in for 20 years and drove APC vehicles for the army.


The news can confirm this, they just need to ask the question and will likely get a reply!

They've had a massive drain the last few years of very experienced men. I can't see the powers that me not using that experience.

TheBoyConor

Bringing in retired staff is another absolute nonsense, and this covid seems to be absolutely surrounded by nonsense speculation.

Retired staff, even if they are physically capable, are no longer employees and thus would not be insured to do any work. And their training would be all out of date too unless they retired only very recently.

Not all old. A family member retired with 40 years of logistics experience. He's only 60. Would be interested to hear from the military guys.

Was it experience in the PDF? If not the Army are hardly going to hire some random retiree who never had any previous experience with them. And if he is 60 he is at high risk so it would be a bad idea for him anyways.

Leave it to the authorities. As with a lot of other things, well meaning people going in to help out are usually more of a hindrance than a help.

Signore Fancy Pants

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I don't think it would be possible. A retired person is just that, retired, and no longer under any obligation to do anything. It would be purely on a voluntary basis. And most retirees will be old and thus would be an at risk group, so they couldn't be used anyway.

Not 100% correct.

Some contracts require an obligation for reserve service for a set amount of time.

For example, someone does 10 years permanent service, then is obliged to be in reserve for 4 years..just an example.

Signore Fancy Pants

Whitney Low Gunpoint wrote: »

Not all old. A family member retired with 40 years of logistics experience. He's only 60. Would be interested to hear from the military guys.

If you join at 17/18 you can retire with a pension after 21 years, you will be 38/39.

Plenty of young retired soldiers out there.

TheBoyConor

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Not 100% correct.

Some contracts require an obligation for reserve service for a set amount of time.

For example, someone does 10 years permanent service, then is obliged to be in reserve for 4 years..just an example.

Well then they are not really retired, are they? They are in reserve. When you are retired, all your obligations to your former employer are liquidated.

Signore Fancy Pants

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Well then they are not really retired, are they? They are in reserve. When you are retired, all your obligations to your former employer are liquidated.

Ok Chief.

You know it all.

cajonlardo

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Well then they are not really retired, are they? They are in reserve. When you are retired, all your obligations to your former employer are liquidated.

You are under the mistaken impression that Labour law extends to the pdf.

It does not.

A good example was the Pilots who had come to the end of their term of service.

They were recruited by an airline.
Until Mickey the Minister told them they were going nowhere until he deemed fit.

As an aside, would you lay off the lazy claims of what the pdf do or do not do.

I will admit to pulling my wire but neither I nor my family ever claimed a cent (from anyone, let alone the state)

PDf are meeting themselves coming back from working ridiculous hours (without overtime payments) on the floods relief.

We had 3 good lads wounded week before last over in Mali. Good people doing good work in other countries also.

Navy just returned from patrol in serious gales (they'll laugh at me, but I'd think it was serious) and are tied up waiting to help.

People on leave from overseas missions are being ordered back,their leave cancelled.

Don't know why I bothered typing any of this, people like yourself are just unreasonable and so it's a waste of time trying to reason with you.
Anyone else reading it likely live the life and will find my post boring

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

TheBoyConor wrote: »

restricting movement? Me arse they will. How could the government do that. I would doubt that they would even have a legal basis to lawfully restrict a persons movements unless that person is actually proven to be sick and a an immediate danger of spreading the virus.


There wasn't half of this outrage back in the '50s when there was TB and that had a death rate of about 30 or 40 percent if you got it.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

They could not bring in any law that unconditionally prevents free movement.
They would be faced with huge lawsuits and claims for unlawful or unconstitutional detention.

I'd like to see them stop me from getting around by the boreens and fields.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

A fanciful notion. The hasn't been martial last in Ireland since the war of independence and civil war. People were being slaughtered in the streets.

It's fairytale thinking that martial law would be declared over what is essentially a bad cold.

It would be profoundly unpopular and in a Western country like Ireland it simply would be unthinkable to impose it in anything other than the most very most exceptionally extreme of circumstances.

Anyway, they haven't got the capability or the will to enforce it. I would like to see them try to impose it and try to stop me or anyone going the byways of the countryside. What are they going to do? Shoot me?

In China they can do these things because they have that sort of system and the population is fairly disciplined. Here, it's full of selfish me feiners and chancers who will try to sue or claim off the gov at the drop off a hat of there's any small chance at all they'll get away with it.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I don't think it would be possible. A retired person is just that, retired, and no longer under any obligation to do anything. It would be purely on a voluntary basis. And most retirees will be old and thus would be an at risk group, so they couldn't be used anyway.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Bringing in retired staff is another absolute nonsense, and this covid seems to be absolutely surrounded by nonsense speculation.

Retired staff, even if they are physically capable, are no longer employees and thus would not be insured to do any work. And their training would be all out of date too unless they retired only very recently.


Was it experience in the PDF? If not the Army are hardly going to hire some random retiree who never had any previous experience with them. And if he is 60 he is at high risk so it would be a bad idea for him anyways.

Leave it to the authorities. As with a lot of other things, well meaning people going in to help out are usually more of a hindrance than a help.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Well then they are not really retired, are they? They are in reserve. When you are retired, all your obligations to your former employer are liquidated.

Where does one even begin?

With every idiotic word out of your mouth, you just prove to everybody that you haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about, yet you have the confidence to spew your rhetoric as somebody who's an expert.

There's nothing in any of your posts that provides any value to the topic. You are absolutely ignorant of the military and it's blatantly obvious that you hold a very vile opinion of the IDF.

You know nothing and you are not convincing anybody on here otherwise. Hypocrit of the highest order. On boards all day, probably because you're on the scratcher. Away with you child...

riffmongous

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

TBH our CBRN suits are not required for Covid-19, respirators and canister maybe. They are designed for more robust threats.

A Brigade is made up of Infantry Battalions, Artillery Regiments, Cavalry Squadrons, support etc. A single "Unit" could consist of anything from 50-300 people.

We have hundreds of NATO level CBRN instructors but its not really applicable to this.

That's why I'm curious what exactly the suits are, because well depending on what kind of aid is going to be provided some sort of suit will need to be worn for contamination purposes, and it's a waste of resources

Signore Fancy Pants

riffmongous wrote: »

That's why I'm curious what exactly the suits are, because well depending on what kind of aid is going to be provided some sort of suit will need to be worn for contamination purposes, and it's a waste of resources

Im not a CBRN expert, just know how to put the gear on and fight.

Pics of the suits here

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.icrc.org/en/document/pictures-responding-chemical-biological-radiological-or-nuclear-cbrn-events%3famp

Markcheese

When an ambulance ( or car or whatever ) goes out to carry out testing , does the person doing the test ,just carefully remove their ppe ,bag it and get back in the ambulance ? Or does he (and the driver ? ) stay in ppe , get back to base ,then go through a thorough decontamination ,and decontaminate the ambulance ?

riffmongous

Markcheese wrote: »

When an ambulance ( or car or whatever ) goes out to carry out testing , does the person doing the test ,just carefully remove their ppe ,bag it and get back in the ambulance ? Or does he (and the driver ? ) stay in ppe , get back to base ,then go through a thorough decontamination ,and decontaminate the ambulance ?

Not sure of the current circumstances but usually for cases of infection you stay in PPE the whole time until after the disinfection of the vehicle has been performed at base

Larbre34

Markcheese wrote: »

When an ambulance ( or car or whatever ) goes out to carry out testing , does the person doing the test ,just carefully remove their ppe ,bag it and get back in the ambulance ? Or does he (and the driver ? ) stay in ppe , get back to base ,then go through a thorough decontamination ,and decontaminate the ambulance ?

Your punctuation has given me Covid-19. Double.

Alkers

sparky42 wrote: »

So far from the Mellet interview they are only thinking about using them for extra testing sites if the HSE needed them.

Does this not seem a terrible idea? Putting a whole ship out if action, when every hotel and school in the country is likely to be empty and better suited to a test centre role than a ship with tight corridors and difficult surfaces to clean?

ectoraige

Markcheese wrote: »

When an ambulance ( or car or whatever ) goes out to carry out testing , does the person doing the test ,just carefully remove their ppe ,bag it and get back in the ambulance ? Or does he (and the driver ? ) stay in ppe , get back to base ,then go through a thorough decontamination ,and decontaminate the ambulance ?

For testing, the person doing the testing disposes of their PPE after each patient. If transporting a suspected covid patient, the person in the back with the patient disposes of their PPE after bringing them into hospital. The driver then dons their PPE and decontaminates the back of the ambulance.

riffmongous

ectoraige wrote: »

For testing, the person doing the testing disposes of their PPE after each patient. If transporting a suspected covid patient, the person in the back with the patient disposes of their PPE after bringing them into hospital. The driver then dons their PPE and decontaminates the back of the ambulance.

Which organisation?

sparky42

Eithne is reportedly being brought back into service to become a testing site at Hogan's quay in Cork.

TheBoyConor

And if Eithne is to be brought back into service, then what other ships or services are going to be curtailed to man her?

NS have more ships than sailor at this stage because the pay is so appallingly bad.

sparky42

TheBoyConor wrote: »

And if Eithne is to be brought back into service, then what other ships or services are going to be curtailed to man her?

NS have more ships than sailor at this stage because the pay is so appallingly bad.

Also the fact that they have an unplanned ship that was never budgeted for in their total manpower.


Given that the engineering ratings seem to be the major issue, given she's not actually going to be sailing whatever manpower that was sustaining her in the Basin can do the same at Hogan's Quay.

TheBoyConor

Why would they even use a ship for this? It makes no sense. How is a person with disabilities supposed to go on the ship for testing? The ship is a confined space, ideal environment for a virus to spread.

Would it not just make more sense to rent some vacant office or retail space, of which there is plenty in Cork, and do the testing there? Or use one of the buildings down in Haulbowline for it.
Surely it would be more straightforward and more accessible that all this messing around with 40 year old ships.

And another thing, Horgans Quay? You can't have people queing up there. The main road is immediately alongside and it would be traffic chaos.

Ah can't believe they didn't consult with The Boy Connor, the authority on everything!

Irish_peppa

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Why would they even use a ship for this? It makes no sense. How is a person with disabilities supposed to go on the ship for testing? The ship is a confined space, ideal environment for a virus to spread.

Would it not just make more sense to rent some vacant office or retail space, of which there is plenty in Cork, and do the testing there? Or use one of the buildings down in Haulbowline for it.
Surely it would be more straightforward and more accessible that all this messing around with 40 year old ships.

And another thing, Horgans Quay? You can't have people queing up there. The main road is immediately alongside and it would be traffic chaos.

To add to the apocalyptic feel? All they need are air raid sirens going off in the background war of the worlds style. In fairness I agree seems a bit odd to be using ships when a stadium/ offices or warehouse would do

TheBoyConor

A car park or warehouse would do. Well ventilated, plenty space, accessible and readilly available.

Markcheese

I'm not sure of the logistics of it all ,but I'm sure they know what they're doing , I think the advantage is the self sustaining nature of the ship and its crew , and their broad Taining,
For the eithne if push comes to shove ,you use the hanger , put a Marquee on the fight deck , and stick another Marquee on the quay side ...
Horgan's quay is quite long .,

Alkers

Markcheese wrote: »

I think the advantage is the self sustaining nature of the ship and its crew

That might make sense, if it wasn't going to be alongside, in a city, where there is ample access to every form of supplies.

It's an absolutely mad idea to me, the same personnel could just as easily be deployed in a school, GAA club or hotel with much less danger and probably more-effectively.

sparky42

Alkers wrote: »

That might make sense, if it wasn't going to be alongside, in a city, where there is ample access to every form of supplies.

It's an absolutely mad idea to me, the same personnel could just as easily be deployed in a school, GAA club or hotel with much less danger and probably more-effectively.

Ok why do you think there's "danger" at all?


I think the reason why the ships are being used rather than your suggested facilities is that the crew know how to perform such checks on the ships while ensuring the crews safety due to their experience in the Med. The check space will be on the upper and aft decks which worse come to worse can just be powerhosed off at set times, something not entirely available in said offices/clubs/hotels.

Larbre34

I agree, I think its just to have a visible presence of patrol ships in the City Centres, Dublin and Galway already have them in place, whether as accessible accommodation, command post or whatever. With all forces on yellow alert and leavrle cancelled maybe the manpower issues are so severe at the minute, but I'm sure a skeleton crew can sail Eithne to the Quay and then run her systems and provide sentries while she's tied up.

Lord knows the NS vessels are feck all use at sea just now.

mikeym

Anyone in the Df that has an underlying illness is sent home.

So theres no point in bringing in people who are over Sixty to do front line work when they could be exposed to the virus.

Alkers

sparky42 wrote: »

Ok why do you think there's "danger" at all?


I think the reason why the ships are being used rather than your suggested facilities is that the crew know how to perform such checks on the ships while ensuring the crews safety due to their experience in the Med. The check space will be on the upper and aft decks which worse come to worse can just be powerhosed off at set times, something not entirely available in said offices/clubs/hotels.

It's very hard to powerhose an area like that with out potentially contaminating yourself or the surrounding area, I don't see powerhosing being used as a clean up method for any other testing facilities anywhere either.
I just see a ship as being constrained, inaccessible, even with a gangway and full of services, openings and fixtures making appropriate cleaning more difficult.
There are plenty of things ships and crews could be used for but I'm not seeing as a testing centre being an optimal choice. That appears to be the decision though so we'll see how it works

Alkers

Alkers wrote: »

It's very hard to powerhose an area like that with out potentially contaminating yourself or the surrounding area, I don't see powerhosing being used as a clean up method for any other testing facilities anywhere either.
I just see a ship as being constrained, inaccessible, even with a gangway and full of services, openings and fixtures making appropriate cleaning more difficult.
There are plenty of things ships and crews could be used for but I'm not seeing as a testing centre being an optimal choice. That appears to be the decision though so we'll see how it works

https://amp.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/naval-service-vessels-deployed-to-act-as-support-bases-for-onshore-covid-19-test-centres-39056330.html

This seems to suggest the ships are there in a support role for shoreside test sites, which seems a much more logical scenario

TheBoyConor

Literally anywhere else other than a ship is a better, more accessible venue for testing.
Most hotels are closed, the HSE could simply hire an empty hotel for a couple of weeks. Plenty parking and all facilities for both testers and patients alike. Easily cleaned and plenty space.


And as for powerhosing, I don't think blasting aerosolised pathogens into the air in a populated area is a good idea.
The floors, doors and corridors of a hotel, warehouse or sports hall are more easily mopped and wiped down than the narrow and fixture riddles spaces in a ship.

And how on earth are the disabled, old, vulnerable and frail and limited mobility people expected to get up a gangway and get around and through the stepped hatches and congested spaces on a ship?
It would be a nightmare all round.

It's a ridiculous idea and again, something that could only be dreamt up of by military types with little experience or appreciation of the great difficulty that the frail and mobility impaired and disabled have getting around day to day, never mind on a cramped ship littered with obstacles, steep steps and trip hazards.

Esel

You obviously didn't read the post above yours, but don't let that stop you.

riffmongous

sparky42 wrote: »

Ok why do you think there's "danger" at all?


I think the reason why the ships are being used rather than your suggested facilities is that the crew know how to perform such checks on the ships while ensuring the crews safety due to their experience in the Med. The check space will be on the upper and aft decks which worse come to worse can just be powerhosed off at set times, something not entirely available in said offices/clubs/hotels.

Yeah I'd say this is it, I'm sure the ships that operated in the Med rescuing people would have been trained and prepared for the possibility of someone carrying an infectious disease, TB would be likely.

Signore Fancy Pants

riffmongous wrote: »

Yeah I'd say this is it, I'm sure the ships that operated in the Med rescuing people would have been trained and prepared for the possibility of someone carrying an infectious disease, TB would be likely.

Correct.

They wore full PPE gear (not au fait with type - white ones ) and had isolation and decontamination procedures.

Signore Fancy Pants

riffmongous wrote: »

Yeah I'd say this is it, I'm sure the ships that operated in the Med rescuing people would have been trained and prepared for the possibility of someone carrying an infectious disease, TB would be likely.

Correct.

They wore full PPE gear (not au fait with type - white ones ) and had isolation and decontamination procedures.

Signore Fancy Pants

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Literally anywhere else other than a ship is a better, more accessible venue for testing.
Most hotels are closed, the HSE could simply hire an empty hotel for a couple of weeks. Plenty parking and all facilities for both testers and patients alike. Easily cleaned and plenty space.


And as for powerhosing, I don't think blasting aerosolised pathogens into the air in a populated area is a good idea.
The floors, doors and corridors of a hotel, warehouse or sports hall are more easily mopped and wiped down than the narrow and fixture riddles spaces in a ship.

And how on earth are the disabled, old, vulnerable and frail and limited mobility people expected to get up a gangway and get around and through the stepped hatches and congested spaces on a ship?
It would be a nightmare all round.

It's a ridiculous idea and again, something that could only be dreamt up of by military types with little experience or appreciation of the great difficulty that the frail and mobility impaired and disabled have getting around day to day, never mind on a cramped ship littered with obstacles, steep steps and trip hazards.

Jesus.

"Could only be dreamt up by military types".

Actually, it would be civilians in the DOD who give the green light to use the ship for ATCA/P operations.

Don't let that unbalance that chip on your shoulder about the military. What are you bitter about?

riffmongous

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Correct.

They wore full PPE gear (not au fait with type - white ones ) and had isolation and decontamination procedures.

Type-5b Tyvek or Mutex probably, disposable single use suits

Edit: Type-4b maybe

Signore Fancy Pants

riffmongous wrote: »

Type-5b Tyvek or Mutex probably, disposable single use suits

Cant really see it but is it this gear?

By all accounts....they really needed to be suited up!

Manic Moran

They don’t need to decon the ship afterwards. Just tow the contaminated hull out to sea and use her in a SinkEx.

riffmongous

Signore Fancy Pants wrote: »

Cant really see it but is it this gear?

By all accounts....they really needed to be suited up!

Yeah exactly! One of these suits with a FFP3 mask, a pair of goggles and two pairs of gloves. The suits aren't anything particularly fancy, it feels a bit papery almost but the material is tight enough to protect against people coughing on you or blood spilling and they aren't so expensive so you just bin them afterwards.
Correction, we and I presume they actually use a Type4b, it's a just a step up in terms of chemical protection from the Type5b



https://www.cas-technik.eu/en/one-way/overalls/dupont-tyvek-classic-plus-cha6-protective-overall-with-booties-cat-iii-type-4b-5b-6b/