Coronavirus and the effect on Public transport

GT89

devnull wrote: »

Dublin Bus are on a Sunday schedule.

Not sure about GAI

GAI are operating a Sunday service the same as DB

dublinman1990

A retired bus driver had his funeral in Birmingham last week after dying from Coronavirus.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-04-14/birmingham-becoming-uk-s-worst-hit-city-by-coronavirus/

London Mayor; Sadiq Khan was giving his remarks to ITV News London yesterday after 15 TfL bus workers have died so far from this disease.

Jamie2k9

Once again IE are failing to update schedules for next week. They have had 3 full working days to update the journey planner and its still not complete.

On Easter Monday they had services down to operate on the website which were never going to run and only removed them that morning.

I cannot understand why they are failing here. I flagged this to them more than a week ahead of time...

Del.Monte

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Once again IE are failing to update schedules for next week. They have had 3 full working days to update the journey planner and its still not complete.

On Easter Monday they had services down to operate on the website which were never going to run and only removed them that morning.

I cannot understand why they are failing here. I flagged this to them more than a week ahead of time...

As we say on the Lavhline thread - are you new here?

Trampas

Probably asked already but when some restrictions are lifted how can it be safe to run public transport while keeping social distancing? I can’t see how it can work properly

bk

Trampas wrote: »

Probably asked already but when some restrictions are lifted how can it be safe to run public transport while keeping social distancing? I can’t see how it can work properly

Personally I can only see it working if we are all required to wear masks when on a bus, in a shop, etc.

end of the road

bk wrote: »

Personally I can only see it working if we are all required to wear masks when on a bus, in a shop, etc.

tbh i don't think any lifting of restrictions will be across the board this time.
what i think will happen is that high economic output/contributer industries will be allowed to return to operation as long as they can maintain social distancing among their staff, if cases don't start to rise after a certain point then restrictions will be lifted further.
we will have to wait and see but either way it will be an easy does it approach i suspect.

punisher5112

Will this be the start where drivers will actually do their jobs and not carry those that are absolutely filthy to the point the stench off them can be tasted and also eye watering......

Can you imagine how filthy these are and they then touch hand rails and sit on seats passing on their filth onto these cloth covered cess pits......

I'm sick of have to tell a hats to cover their mouth coughing or sneezing....

Still coming across plenty of spits on the floors too.

dashcamdanny

punisher5112 wrote: »

Will this be the start where drivers will actually do their jobs and not carry those that are absolutely filthy to the point the stench off them can be tasted and also eye watering......

Can you imagine how filthy these are and they then touch hand rails and sit on seats passing on their filth onto these cloth covered cess pits......

I'm sick of have to tell a hats to cover their mouth coughing or sneezing....

Still coming across plenty of spits on the floors too.

I have been driving past them for the last 2 weeks. Everyone needs to be doing the same. If they look dodgy , they always are.
Sick of the same daily argument with them.
Waiting on a new pass bud,
pass is broken(blocked in other words)
I forgot it and have no money.
Ah im only going a few stops.


While an upstanding decent OAP that genuinely forgot their pass will insist in paying.


Notice that still alot of folk complaining in twiter about drivers not opening the center door.
These drivers are idiots. Plain and simple. They are making it extremely difficult to train the public into the proper use of the middle door.

ax586

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I have been driving past them for the last 2 weeks. Everyone needs to be doing the same. If they look dodgy , they always are.
Sick of the same daily argument with them.
Waiting on a new pass bud,
pass is broken(blocked in other words)
I forgot it and have no money.
Ah im only going a few stops.


While an upstanding decent OAP that genuinely forgot their pass will insist in paying.


Notice that still alot of folk complaining in twiter about drivers not opening the center door.
These drivers are idiots. Plain and simple. They are making it extremely difficult to train the public into the proper use of the middle door.

I always open the centre door.but the other night my other half was coming home from work and the driver would not open the centre door at all even when she asked..safe to say I got a earful of her when I came home..now I know the driver hes in the same depot as me and real senior but is one of the first ones to complain that people are not getting off the centre doors

VG31

ax586 wrote: »

I always open the centre door.but the other night my other half was coming home from work and the driver would not open the centre door at all even when she asked..safe to say I got a earful of her when I came home..now I know the driver hes in the same depot as me and real senior but is one of the first ones to complain that people are not getting off the centre doors

Why do some drivers still not open the centre door? Do they think the centre door button triggers an ejector seat?! Thankfully these drivers are much more rare than they used to be.

I see Dublin Bus themselves are trying to get passengers to use them also.

https://twitter.com/dublinbusnews/status/1251147790085812229

https://twitter.com/BrexitDoor/status/1249096149295923200

Jamie2k9

First idea of the cost:

Public transport companies are to get an increased subsidy from the National Transport Authority (NTA), which could exceed €150m over three months.

The authority has already boosted its monthly funding to Irish Rail, Dublin Bus, Luas and Bus Eireann to compensate for the average 90% collapse in passenger numbers since the lockdown started last month, according to transport sector sources.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bus-and-rail-firms-to-get-a-lift-with-150m-transport-subsidy-qtq9bcbxg

ax586

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

First idea of the cost:



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bus-and-rail-firms-to-get-a-lift-with-150m-transport-subsidy-qtq9bcbxg

And Go Ahead I assume

LastStop

ax586 wrote: »

And Go Ahead I assume

Why, They signed a contract that says they'll get paid x whether the bus is full or empty. They are not reliant on fares and probably saving a bundle by only needing to operate sat and sun service.

Maybe they need a boost to pay for additional cleaning services.

ax586

LastStop wrote: »

Why, They signed a contract that says they'll get paid x whether the bus is full or empty. They are not reliant on fares and probably saving a bundle by only needing to operate sat and sun service.

Maybe they need a boost to pay for additional cleaning services.

Didn't DB sign a new 5 year contract this year with basically the same conditions,the fares go to nta now which is the same as no?or am I completely wrong

Better Than Christ

LastStop wrote: »

Why, They signed a contract that says they'll get paid x whether the bus is full or empty. They are not reliant on fares and probably saving a bundle by only needing to operate sat and sun service.

Maybe they need a boost to pay for additional cleaning services.

They're saving an absolute fortune. Getting paid the same amount to run fewer buses. No traffic delays, lower fuel and maintenance costs, no more overtime.

punisher5112

Huge issues with batteries on buses as a day or 2 can cause them to die.....

Ive seen a good few Volvo techs in working on them.

john boye

LastStop wrote: »

Why, They signed a contract that says they'll get paid x whether the bus is full or empty. They are not reliant on fares and probably saving a bundle by only needing to operate sat and sun service.

Maybe they need a boost to pay for additional cleaning services.

Go ahead may not need more funding but the NTA itself will presumably need to find more funds to plug the loss in fare revenue.

Vic_08

ax586 wrote: »

Didn't DB sign a new 5 year contract this year with basically the same conditions,the fares go to nta now which is the same as no?or am I completely wrong

You are completely wrong, DB, IE and BE are all reliant on farebox for a large % of their revenue.

I can see an issue brewing over Expressway, either NTA are now funding it and some of the privates will kick up over them not being supported as well or NTA are not funding it but expecting BE to continue running the routes which will quickly lead to a big hole in BE finances.

ax586

Vic_08 wrote: »

You are completely wrong, DB, IE and BE are all reliant on farebox for a large % of their revenue.

I can see an issue brewing over Expressway, either NTA are now funding it and some of the privates will kick up over them not being supported as well or NTA are not funding it but expecting BE to continue running the routes which will quickly lead to a big hole in BE finances.

Ok man chill..I was told the completely the opposite..hence why I said I could be completely wrong

Jamie2k9

Vic_08 wrote: »

You are completely wrong, DB, IE and BE are all reliant on farebox for a large % of their revenue.

I can see an issue brewing over Expressway, either NTA are now funding it and some of the privates will kick up over them not being supported as well or NTA are not funding it but expecting BE to continue running the routes which will quickly lead to a big hole in BE finances.

Don't worry Expressway will be looked after without upsetting private operators they have survived this long...
________

The article also indicates Luas has gotten extra funding though they are similar set up to GoAhead so in theory its probably for increased cleaning etc.

I would also say there is likely a degree of ignorance to GoAhead within the media. Its rather common for journalists to only take about CIE and Luas companies.

Irish Rail, then Bus Eireann probally getting most as they would have lost the most in terms of revenue and higher costs.

GT89

punisher5112 wrote: »

Huge issues with batteries on buses as a day or 2 can cause them to die.....

Ive seen a good few Volvo techs in working on them.

Are these the single door buses off service atm. Would there not be similar issues when they pull buses from service in the summer months. Sure there a few years ago there was a BE strike that went on for about 3 weeks I wonder were there simialr issues then.

punisher5112

GT89 wrote: »

Are these the single door buses off service atm. Would there not be similar issues when they pull buses from service in the summer months. Sure there a few years ago there was a BE strike that went on for about 3 weeks I wonder were there simialr issues then.

Mainly SG actually.

The battery saver isn't cutting it.

They really should be parking them up and isolating from outside kill switch.

Some are dead if left a day and most of any model wouldn't last 2 days of no use.

GT89

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Don't worry Expressway will be looked after without upsetting private operators they have survived this long...
________

The article also indicates Luas has gotten extra funding though they are similar set up to GoAhead so in theory its probably for increased cleaning etc.

I would also say there is likely a degree of ignorance to GoAhead within the media. Its rather common for journalists to only take about CIE and Luas companies.

Irish Rail, then Bus Eireann probally getting most as they would have lost the most in terms of revenue and higher costs.

I believe a lot the EU laws surrounding state aid have been relaxed during this crisis so that will probably be the get out of jail free card for BE and the NTA.

Remember the Luas is not PSO. It wouldn't surprise me though at present if the Luas is being treated effectively as PSO due to the low passenger numbers.

GAI are not the only non CIE company providing PSO services. There's a lot more ignorance towards Local Link and stuff like the 139 and 197 etc.

LastStop

ax586 wrote: »

Ok man chill..I was told the completely the opposite..hence why I said I could be completely wrong

Yeah the new contract was still factored onto the farebox however it hammers the company with penalties for things like not keeping even headway, lost mileage, failure to use the centre doors etc.

ax586

LastStop wrote: »

Yeah the new contract was still factored onto the farebox however it hammers the company with penalties for things like not keeping even headway, lost mileage, failure to use the centre doors etc.

Thanks Laststop

dublinman1990

DCC are to block parking spaces & loading bays around Dublin City to increase road space for pedestrians.

They plan to increase footpath spacing in areas around South William Street & along the south quays.

New temporary bus stops will be implemented to allow for increased road space for pedestrians.

A delivery loading bay in Stoneybatter will be reserved for pedestrians only to allow increased social distancing when people are walking on footpaths or queue up for food outside shops. Delivery drivers are being asked to park further away from shops. The new blocked loading bays & parking spaces will be using new orcas & bollards to widen the footpath. Supplies are currently limited but more of them will be delivered in 2 weeks to carry out more work around the city.

An RTÉ News article says there will be a new contra-flow cycle lane built on Nassau St.

Dravokivich

I don't understand why they'd want delivery drivers stopping further from their destination. Deliveries should be done with a quick turnaround. Is there anything particular with the loading bay in Stoneybatter?

GT89

When the restrictions are eased and more people start going back to work I can't see social distancing being workable on public transport. It is at the moment because the numbers using it are so low. I'm not saying we're going to have buses and trains shoulder to shoulder from day one but how can you maintain 2m distance if say 30 people are on a bus.

Ok drivers could be told not to carry more than x amount of passengers which would be impossible on the Luas and trains. But that's not viable either I can only imagine the amount of people complaining on Twitter if a bus goes past "full" with less than 20 people on board. I can also see a situation where some drivers will make passengers follow social distancing rules vigorously while others simply won't care.

My personal preference would be to make public transport exempt from social distancing requirements as it just would not be practical. Actually having social distancing on public transport could lead to more risk of the spread of the virus than not having social distancing. For example people having to wait at stops in proximity to others for longer than nessecary. The best way to reduce the risk in my opinion is to get people on and off as quickly as possible.

bk

GT89 wrote: »

My personal preference would be to make public transport exempt from social distancing requirements as it just would not be practical. Actually having social distancing on public transport could lead to more risk of the spread of the virus than not having social distancing. For example people having to wait at stops in proximity to others for longer than nessecary. The best way to reduce the risk in my opinion is to get people on and off as quickly as possible.

The 2 meter social distancing thing is a guideline at best anyway. It certainly isn't a hard and fast rule.

If you look at what other countries in Europe are doing that are starting to open up, most seem to be requiring the use of masks on public transport.

At train stations, the police are handing out surgical face masks to all passengers as they enter the stations. Obviously buses and Luas would be a bit trickier then that.

Clearly I'm not, but if I was a bus driver, I'd be shouting at my union to fight for mask only rule to be brought in for buses. No passenger allowed on unless they have a mask.

dashcamdanny

bk wrote: »

The 2 meter social distancing thing is a guideline at best anyway. It certainly isn't a hard and fast rule.

If you look at what other countries in Europe are doing that are starting to open up, most seem to be requiring the use of masks on public transport.

At train stations, the police are handing out surgical face masks to all passengers as they enter the stations. Obviously buses and Luas would be a bit trickier then that.

Clearly I'm not, but if I was a bus driver, I'd be shouting at my union to fight for mask only rule to be brought in for buses. No passenger allowed on unless they have a mask.

Im getting the impression that the unions are more worried about the future at the moment. The impending downturn is going to put driver T&Cs at risk and it seems the unions dont want to shake the boat too much.

Personally , I believe we should be trying to get paying customers back onto the buses instead to making it harder. I dont think the NTA can continue into the future with the current set up. At least without some serous government intervention .

Would I risk more exposure to the virus as a driver in order to retain my T&Cs as well as better job security?
Yes.

Jamie2k9

In May I would only expect certain retail restrictions listed particularly DIY and some limited construction and factory work. Would say all office type roles to encourage workers to remain at home for a few more weeks and most companies are only going to allow a reduced number into the office when they return.

IMO the Saturday plus schedule will continue throughout May however some extra peak services will likely be required which should hopefully eliminate company forcing more annual leave on excess staff and prevent a big row!

The summer schedule this year probably won't be allowed to happen or shouldn't assuming more people are back working. Most transport operators will have until September before you would expect any meaningful recovery assuming schools / students and its then when you would hope social distancing measures are not as important like today or things will be more complicated.

Jamie2k9

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Im getting the impression that the unions are more worried about the future at the moment. The impending downturn is going to put driver T&Cs at risk and it seems the unions dont want to shake the boat too much.

Personally , I believe we should be trying to get paying customers back onto the buses instead to making it harder. I dont think the NTA can continue into the future with the current set up. At least without some serous government intervention .

Would I risk more exposure to the virus as a driver in order to retain my T&Cs as well as better job security?
Yes.

When I heard TFL doing a centre door only i.e. free travel for people I was expanding the same demands over here.

bk

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Personally , I believe we should be trying to get paying customers back onto the buses instead to making it harder. I dont think the NTA can continue into the future with the current set up. At least without some serous government intervention .

Would I risk more exposure to the virus as a driver in order to retain my T&Cs as well as better job security?
Yes.

If you force people back on buses, without any safety steps and the virus spreads again and peaks, we will all be back in full lockdown and the buses will be empty again!

Things will only return to normal once a vaccine (or very effective treatment) is widespread or it naturally dies out.

Before that, I suspect most people with any choice will go nowhere near a bus/tram/train/plane. Trapped in a metal cylinder with other people coughing and sneezing, no thank you!

Specially if no safety procedures are put in place to reduce their fears!

I'd actually say you will get more people back on public transport faster, if you required face masks and other steps. At least then people will feel safer, even if it is "security theatre".

The biggest problem public transport will face over the next few months is convincing people it is safe to use again.

punisher5112

Drug users and homeless are out and all on buses.... They have no personal hygiene and will help spread....

GT89

bk wrote: »

If you force people back on buses, without any safety steps and the virus spreads again and peaks, we will all be back in full lockdown and the buses will be empty again!

Things will only return to normal once a vaccine (or very effective treatment) is widespread or it naturally dies out.

Before that, I suspect most people with any choice will go nowhere near a bus/tram/train/plane. Trapped in a metal cylinder with other people coughing and sneezing, no thank you!

Specially if no safety procedures are put in place to reduce their fears!

I'd actually say you will get more people back on public transport faster, if you required face masks and other steps. At least then people will feel safer, even if it is "security theatre".

The biggest problem public transport will face over the next few months is convincing people it is safe to use again.

But if the only place you're exposed to the virus is on public transport then that would reduce transmission rates to a much smaller more manageable level than before. For example if you spend an hour on public transport a day with no social distancing or masks you transmission would be lower compared to everyone in an office not social distnacing for an 8 hour working or going to mass gatherings such as football matches, concerts etc.

You also may be reducing people's choice for example with DCC removing on street parking to allow more room for social distancing on pavements. The car isn't an option for a lot of people particularly those commuting in and out of the city centre.

As for mandatory masks it may sound good in theory but in reality it's difficult to enforce unless masks become the norm in all areas of society ie no one leaves the house unless masked up. How could it be made as though masks are only mandatory on public transport but not anywhere else.

How can masks be made mandatory on public transport who's current bylaws are already frequently disobeyed for example food and drink is banned on Dublin Bus but it's not obeyed or enforced. Who do you expect to enforce it? Drivers. What driver is going to want to get into an argument with a passenger over the non use of a mask particularly if it increases the amount of time in proximity with a potentially infected induvidual. Not many drivers seem to be using masks themselves at the moment.

bk

GT89 wrote: »

But if the only place you're exposed to the virus is on public transport then that would reduce transmission rates to a much smaller more manageable level than before. For example if you spend an hour on public transport a day with no social distancing or masks you transmission would be lower compared to everyone in an office not social distnacing for an 8 hour working or going to mass gatherings such as football matches, concerts etc.

The government has already announced this week that all football matches, concerts, etc. are all off until at least September and realistically they are off until this is completely beaten (vaccine/treatment/dies out), so those aren't a concern.

Not all offices are the same. Some still have actual individual offices and doors. Even my own open plan style office has a good few meters between each person and dividers.

By comparison, public transport is WAY worse in my books. People are squeezed shoulder to shoulder on public transport, much worse then many offices.

Look, there will of course be some people who have no choice but to take public transport.

However there are many people who do have a choice, and if safety steps aren't taken, I can tell you right now, that they won't be returning to public transport.

Think about those who have a car, but normally take public transport because it is faster or they don't have to pay for parking. Most of them will choose to take their car, even if slower/more expensive, rather then risk catching a deadly disease on a bus.

Many offices will give their employees the option to work from home where possible, if they don't feel safe coming into the office. For many having to take public transport will be what swings it for them to decide to continue to work from home. That is what my company is doing, we have been told that we can work from home for the next year with no issues and to plan accordingly (order extra gear to WFH, etc.). Most of my friends in other IT companies have been told the same.

Then there are those who might think of getting the bus to town to do some non-essential shopping. But again if they feel unsafe they will decide to stay home or take the car.

Anyone who has a choice, won't risk catching a deadly disease on public transport.

This is basically what city buses are like in Cork. Only those who have no choice, the elderly and young with no car, use the bus. Everyone else drives. There is a real danger of the same happening in Dublin now.

I think you are very much mistaken if you think most people are just going to crowd back on buses, with no safety steps, when a deadly disease is doing the rounds.

I fear we might do real long term damage to public transport use if you stick your head in the sand like that.

BTW I appreciate the difficulty drivers would have with enforcing a face mask rule. Perhaps it would make sense to temporarily hire out of work bouncers to work on the buses, enforcing the rules. Like many supermarkets have done.

Emme

GT89 wrote: »

My personal preference would be to make public transport exempt from social distancing requirements as it just would not be practical. Actually having social distancing on public transport could lead to more risk of the spread of the virus than not having social distancing. For example people having to wait at stops in proximity to others for longer than nessecary. The best way to reduce the risk in my opinion is to get people on and off as quickly as possible.

Barry Kenny is that you?

A colleague who is working in essential services gets the train from Sallins to Heuston every morning. She says that despite very small numbers travelling on trains it is still impossible to social distance because Irish Rail have cut a 6 or 7 car train down to 3 cars.

I think a lot of people who commuted for work before lockdown have woken up to the effect overcrowding and long commutes have on their health and their bank balance not to mention their family life and overall quality of life. Many will be looking for alternatives to the long commute and suffering indifferent contemptuous treatment from public transport bodies.

Dravokivich

Emme wrote: »

Barry Kenny is that you?

He wouldn't need to do that. He'd be onto the NTA about protecting Irish Rail. Not looking to get an exemption on how many people they can carry.

dashcamdanny

Dublin Bus has qualified for the Covid 19 temporary wage subsidy scheme. As of yesterday I believe.

hmmm

bk wrote: »

Many offices will give their employees the option to work from home where possible, if they don't feel safe coming into the office. For many having to take public transport will be what swings it for them to decide to continue to work from home. That is what my company is doing, we have been told that we can work from home for the next year with no issues and to plan accordingly (order extra gear to WFH,

Agree completely with this. Public transport is a huge problem in a social-distancing world with a virus circulating.

I expect Government will be clear that workers should continue to work from home where possible until a vaccine is available, and public transport should only be used by essential workers. This is about protecting the people who have to take public transport, not facilitating those who can optionally use it.

We might need some short-term solutions to reduce risk e.g. all windows should be welded open, perspex between seats, remove seats. Some public transport will become non-viable for a period.

punisher5112

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Dublin Bus has qualified for the Covid 19 temporary wage subsidy scheme. As of yesterday I believe.

So those last in may well be laid off till needed again.

dashcamdanny

punisher5112 wrote: »

So those last in may well be laid off till needed again.

Maybe. I hope not. There are still lots of folk with massive amounts of holiday built up that should be addressed before laying off fellow drivers.

Plus I dont think its really about layoffs. Its about keeping the company prosperous or at least able to survive without having to lay its staff out.

Dravokivich

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Maybe. I hope not. There are still lots of folk with massive amounts of holiday built up that should be addressed before laying off fellow drivers.

Plus I dont think its really about layoffs. Its about keeping the company prosperous or at least able to survive without having to lay its staff out.

Taking holidays now, just means they won't be taking holidays later in the year whenever the restrictions ease up. It does not lower the wage bill.

GT89

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Maybe. I hope not. There are still lots of folk with massive amounts of holiday built up that should be addressed before laying off fellow drivers.

Plus I dont think its really about layoffs. Its about keeping the company prosperous or at least able to survive without having to lay its staff out.

The government should really step in and guarantee the company with subsidy to ensure no layoffs.

punisher5112

db and others can't fold no matter what the transport will continue you only have to look back over time where recession after recession and so on.....

More housing was built in these times many many years back too....

This will be a serious set back for everyone and as it is I can see the fleet been either cut or staying around what it is now and bus connects won't be coming for a very long time if at all.

bk

Dravokivich wrote: »

Taking holidays now, just means they won't be taking holidays later in the year whenever the restrictions ease up. It does not lower the wage bill.

There won't be any traditional holidays anyway this year. No one is going to be heading to Spain, etc. for their holidays this year. I'd even question if holidaying in Ireland will be allowed.

punisher5112 wrote: »

bus connects won't be coming for a very long time if at all.

I'd hope Busconnects would continue. With streets and traffic, it would be the perfect time to get it done.

Jamie2k9

GT89 wrote: »

The government should really step in and guarantee the company with subsidy to ensure no layoffs.

No they shouldn’t make any guarantees. If demand stays down 60% for 2 years you cannot expect taxpayer to keep funding at the level from early 2020. I wouldn’t be overly worried if I worked DB, traffic will bounce back and hopefully it won't be to difficult for employees.

If there is a longer slow down in demand I would like to see 24hr services expanded and this could be achieved within existing funding if daytime services were scaled down because of less traffic. Would also keep people in jobs even if they don't like night work.

Dravokivich

bk wrote: »

There won't be any traditional holidays anyway this year. No one is going to be heading to Spain, etc. for their holidays this year. I'd even question if holidaying in Ireland will be allowed.

No one is suggesting there would be.

bk

Dravokivich wrote: »

No one is suggesting there would be.

So will it make a difference when you take your holidays in that case? You are going to be home either way.